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Slimebeast said:
SamuelRSmith said:
Slimebeast said:
SamuelRSmith said:
Slimebeast said:

Now race is not my main perspective on this issue but it's okay to put it like that (I would prefer culture and heritage). Either way this issue is one important reason why I want immigration into Europe to stop immediately, not just into my own country.

Our third biggest city in Sweden, Malmö with a population of over 300,000, is turning into a melting pot with lots of ghettos and crimes never before seen in our country. Of all people under the age of 20 in Malmö, Swedes are already in the minority! With our current rate of mass immigration (which has been record high in the last 5 years and it will only increase even further because our politicians just loosened the immigration laws) in less than two decades the same will have happened in all our big cities. People with foreign origins will be in the majority, at least if we're talking about the younger population.

Who knows what implications this will have but so far the signs are extremely worrying. Even mundane things such as changes in cultural preference & heritage bothers me. It sucks that Sweden won't feel like Sweden soon. A melting pot who ignores will not care about our history and culture. And the majority of youngsters will be into hiphop and gangster rap (not to speak of the serious issues such as crime, unemployment, struggling economy and well-fare system and changes in morality and behaviour in society).

If your country is like that, fine. All countries have different cultures, and I like that. If I travel to Athens in Greece I want to feel like I am in Greece, not little Asia. If I go to London I want to see England, not London the melting pot.


America is a nation built on immigration, it is also the most economically successful nation in the history of the planet. Immigrants are beneficial to the economy - labourers are labourers no matter where they come from, and increasing the amount of labour simply increases the economic capacity of the country. The economy struggles with welfare. Immigrants only speed up an existing problem with welfare systems, they do not create them.

Crime rates are linked to unemployment figures, which is linked to a struggling economy. Fix the welfare system, fix the economy, fix unemployment, fix crime rates.

The other points, sure, are your own opinions. I can't change those, nor do I have any desire to. But, from an economic stand point, immigrants are only beneficial to the economy, not a drain on it. Economics are not the only thing that matters, but they are one of the more important factors.

Wow there's so much wrong in this post and twisted logics.

To generalize like that and say "immigrants are only beneficial to the economy" is extremely ignorant.

It benefits America perhaps (it's debatable) but "immigration" definitely doesn't benefit European economy or society as a whole. I'm speaking of immigration like it happens in reality, right here and right now with all the millions of poor people knocking on the doors of Europe and the 50 million immigrants that are already here. We're not talking about the labor based immigration of your neo-capitalist fantasies. It's debatable how much current immigration flows benefit USA and Canada but yes, America certainly became powerful because of immigration historically and it was created with immigration in mind and the American society is by its design very much adapted to the nature of immigration. Europe is not.

And where did you get this delusion that immigrants work more than the native population? Because that sure isn't true in the majority of Europe including UK, Spain, Italy, France, Holland and Germany. If 80% of the native Swedish adult population works but only 55% of all immigrants work, how does immigration benefit Swedish economy?

If a certain economic and welfare system is already in place in a country, the people decided to build it during many decades after the WW2, and you bring mostly asylum seekers and their families in it and most of them end up feeding on it, you still claim immigration is beneficial to the economy? It's circular reasoning.

You say "Fix the welfare system, fix the economy, fix unemployment, fix crime rates". Are you extremely naive or something? Currently our way of "fixing" is to bring even more immigrants, not just in Sweden but all over Europe immigration is record high, because such is the nature of immigration, it tends to expand if you don't take active measures against it.


*sighs* Well, first of all you're wrong on the work point, especially in the UK. In the UK, the average immigrant actually generate more in tax revenue than the average native-born UK citizen. http://www.official-documents.gov.uk/document/cm72/7237/7237.pdf

As that report finds out, the UK Government is experiencing a double-whammy benefit from immigration. As, not only are they paying more in tax... but we never had to pay for their education.

You can't generate more tax, per capita, if you don't work harder, per capita. That's a simple fact.

As for the USA, today. Their farming system simply would not be able to work without the labour of Mexican immigrants in California. Americans don't want to do the jobs, and even if they did... they wou;dn't want to do it for the shitty wages, they would probably unionize and demand more and more benefits... the cost of labour on farms in the USA would skyrocket, and the farms would all move to Mexico (which is already happening... but much slower than it would).

--------------------------------

As for the welfare systems, you should know by now that I am very much against them. If you're born in this country, or you move here, it doesn't matter. If you don't have the dignity to sustain your own life, then why the fuck should others be forced to?

But... I don't really understand your last comment. I'm telling you that if you sort out the welfare systems (that is, pretty much scrap 95% of it) , any problems with immigration will fix themselves. You tell me that I'm niave because the Government aren't doing that... how does that make sense? The Government aren't doing what I suggest, and the problem is getting worse... and I'm being naive? Perhaps it's just a case of, as usual, the Government being wrong.

From your own report. On page 25, Figure 5.4.4 proportion of working age population that are economically inactive:

UK-born: 21%
Born overseas: 26%

So you are wrong even based on your own worthless report. Those reports, we have them in Sweden too, they're worthless. Garbage. Rubbish. They're ordered by the government to justify their insane mass immigration. It's pure propaganda.

They use all sorts of tricks in them to twist the statistics and they leave out heavy economical negative impacts from immigration suchs as crime, extra resources taken for border control, immigration office paper work, unneccessary jobs created from immigration (say, if you work as an interpretor, that job is worthless o the UK, but in the statistics that's recorded as an employed immigrant). One trick is to define total labor force as all people between the age of 15-75 to artifically make it look like the employment rate of immigrants is high, then in the next table use the age group 15-65 when it benefits statistics of immigrants in another way.

I'm worried if you will work in finance one day because you have a poor ability to read stats and you lack the healthy scepticism needed to interpret propaganda. (it's not just you, Highwaystar among others buy into these lies too and keep repeating them).

Meh, I didn't read the report, I can't be arsed to put the effort in over a forum debate. I just got the link from:

http://www.adamsmith.org/blog/international/immigration-restrictions-make-us-poorer/

And, actually, I do tend to be very skeptical over Government reports.I was just being lazy. However, you don't have much to worry about, I have no intention of working in finance. I want to do something worthwhile with my time.



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In regard to people there is only one race: The Human Race. All other facets are just distractions.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F1gWECYYOSo

Please Watch/Share this video so it gets shown in Hollywood.

DEATH TO GLOBALIZATION. Every race should have its own identity and should NEVER dissaper or change itself.



pizzahut451 said:

DEATH TO GLOBALIZATION. Every race should have its own identity and should NEVER dissaper or change itself.

All current cultures are built on the bones of previous ones, and are heavily differentiated from previous versions of itself.

The United  States alone is almost completely different compared to what it was two hundred years ago.



SamuelRSmith said:
Slimebeast said:
SamuelRSmith said:

*sighs* Well, first of all you're wrong on the work point, especially in the UK. In the UK, the average immigrant actually generate more in tax revenue than the average native-born UK citizen. http://www.official-documents.gov.uk/document/cm72/7237/7237.pdf

As that report finds out, the UK Government is experiencing a double-whammy benefit from immigration. As, not only are they paying more in tax... but we never had to pay for their education.

You can't generate more tax, per capita, if you don't work harder, per capita. That's a simple fact.

As for the USA, today. Their farming system simply would not be able to work without the labour of Mexican immigrants in California. Americans don't want to do the jobs, and even if they did... they wou;dn't want to do it for the shitty wages, they would probably unionize and demand more and more benefits... the cost of labour on farms in the USA would skyrocket, and the farms would all move to Mexico (which is already happening... but much slower than it would).

--------------------------------

As for the welfare systems, you should know by now that I am very much against them. If you're born in this country, or you move here, it doesn't matter. If you don't have the dignity to sustain your own life, then why the fuck should others be forced to?

But... I don't really understand your last comment. I'm telling you that if you sort out the welfare systems (that is, pretty much scrap 95% of it) , any problems with immigration will fix themselves. You tell me that I'm niave because the Government aren't doing that... how does that make sense? The Government aren't doing what I suggest, and the problem is getting worse... and I'm being naive? Perhaps it's just a case of, as usual, the Government being wrong.

From your own report. On page 25, Figure 5.4.4 proportion of working age population that are economically inactive:

UK-born: 21%
Born overseas: 26%

So you are wrong even based on your own worthless report. Those reports, we have them in Sweden too, they're worthless. Garbage. Rubbish. They're ordered by the government to justify their insane mass immigration. It's pure propaganda.

They use all sorts of tricks in them to twist the statistics and they leave out heavy economical negative impacts from immigration suchs as crime, extra resources taken for border control, immigration office paper work, unneccessary jobs created from immigration (say, if you work as an interpretor, that job is worthless o the UK, but in the statistics that's recorded as an employed immigrant). One trick is to define total labor force as all people between the age of 15-75 to artifically make it look like the employment rate of immigrants is high, then in the next table use the age group 15-65 when it benefits statistics of immigrants in another way.

I'm worried if you will work in finance one day because you have a poor ability to read stats and you lack the healthy scepticism needed to interpret propaganda. (it's not just you, Highwaystar among others buy into these lies too and keep repeating them).

Meh, I didn't read the report, I can't be arsed to put the effort in over a forum debate. I just got the link from:

http://www.adamsmith.org/blog/international/immigration-restrictions-make-us-poorer/

And, actually, I do tend to be very skeptical over Government reports.I was just being lazy. However, you don't have much to worry about, I have no intention of working in finance. I want to do something worthwhile with my time.

lol so you just wasted my time then.

Well, I'm glad to hear that, cos I used to think you are a smart young guy.

You could have saved both our time by quoting this instead, where this blogger draws the same conclusion I did about the official report you linked to. "This is a hugely flawed study from 2006,". For example, these reports receive some of their "facts" from environmentalist/globalization/human rights lobby groups.

Immigration, damn lies, and statistics.

So, David Cameron made a speech in which he said that, actually, massive uncontrolled immigration might not bring the huge benefits promised to all areas.

At which point, I found myself involved in a twitter argument (a twargument?) with someone called Ian Birrell. The name sort of rang a bell, but I just checked his twitter profile and it tells me he

Was: Deputy editor The Independent & David Cameron speechwriter. Is: Columnist, co-founder Africa Express and a bit more besides.

So you’d think he’d have a reasonable grasp of the numbers regarding immigration. First up he claims that….


Home office study found immigrants’ net contribution = 1% off income tax rate. This means they subsidise welfare state
http://bit.ly/gzqYJohttp://bit.ly/dJcmHY

which points to .
This is a hugely flawed study from 2006, especially the section titled “ASSUMED ANNUAL LONG-TERM GROSS MIGRATION FLOWS” – compare the figures in that chart to the figures in 2010/11.
http://www.official-documents.gov.uk/document/cm72/7237/7237.pdf

At best, section 2 says:

Though based on a previous set of migration assumptions, analysis by the Government Actuary’s Department suggests that, in the long term, immigration helps to reduce the burden of contributions to the National Insurance Fund.

That’s a helluva lot of assumptions and suggestions, which have been debunked 1000 times over, not least at http://www.migrationwatchuk.org/briefingPaper/1.17

Incidentally, most migration benefit statistics are based on a VOLUNTARY years-old EXIT survey covering airports, not sea ports, and excluding asylum seekers.
More details here: http://www.migrationwatchuk.org/briefingPaper/document/95

Incidentally, the 1% figure does NOT take into account loss of employment for UK residents – almost all newly created jobs went to non-UK migrant workers:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/journalists/christopher-hope/7939138/Record-four-out-of-five-jobs-going-to-foreigners-between-May-and-June.html

Labour market figures showed that 186,000 people started work – of which 145,000 were foreign and just 41,000 were British – in the three months to June 30.
The total number of foreigners in employment – 3.85million – is also at a record high, and amounts to one in seven of the workforce, according to the Office for National Statistics.

That’s 3.85 million “foreigners in employment”, while the latest figures from 13th April 2011 shows 9.30 million people “economically inactive” and those registered unemployed at 2.48 million.http://www.statistics.gov.uk/cci/nugget.asp?id=12

It also doesn’t take into account cash-in-hand work. Bizarrely, it’s often said almost with pride by the left that if all un-registered workers vanished overnight, the entire hospitality industry in London would collapse. Gosh, how very proud we must be that we’ve built a whole industry on and invisible underclass of worker.

What else does Ian say?


Also studies show immigrants are twice as likely to start a new business – so surely we need more, not less, to boost growth?
http://bit.ly/hURNjG

And you know what? The price of a gallon of petrol is now only £2.32, just a third of what it was yesterday. Oh, but I’m quoting figures from the US. Just like Ian is doing.

In the past fifteen years immigrants have doubled their presence in the market for American entreprenership.

Read more at the Washington Examiner: http://washingtonexaminer.com/blogs/opinion-zone/2011/03/immigrants-are-more-twice-likely-start-new-business#ixzz1JUn8SKLf

Hardly relevant, though, is it? So what if “immigrants are twice as likely to start a new business” in the USA?! It’s a vastly different place with a hugely different demographic and about 4x the population in an area 40x bigger, not in the EU, with a different currency…. need I go on?

Or crime figures:


Crime has fallen heavily in recent years despite biggest increase in immigration in recent history. Facts don’t support you
http://bit.ly/e16P5C

Really? Well, as Ian used to edit a broadsheet, perhaps he would have been aware of the dataset published by The Guardian:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog/2010/jul/15/crime-statistics-police-force

Almost every aspect of crimes against the person is up – sure, if you lump in the fact that “theft of mail” is down by 17% and “Fraud by company director” is down by 89%, then sure, then that’s the part that’s really important, right?

Sexual activity involving a child under 16 is up 20% or sexual grooming is up 29%.
Hmmmm, wonder why that is…. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/8240202/Cover-up-claims-over-Asian-sex-gangs.html

In 17 court cases since 1997 where groups of men were prosecuted for grooming 11 to 16 year old girls on the street, 53 of the 56 people found guilty were Asian, 50 of them Muslim, while just three were white, The Times reported.

Anti-semitism is on the rise too: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-12350913

From the BBC article: 47% of perpetrators were white, 52% were Asian/Arab/black/East European.

Homophobic attacks are on the rise: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-12526820

From the article:

Reprinted and glued to dozens of lampposts and railings in the area, a flyer states: “Arise and warn. Gay free zone. Verily Allah is severe in punishment.”
The latest figures from the Metropolitan Police show rising homophobic crime in the area.
There were six reported homophobic crimes in Tower Hamlets in January 2011, compared to two reported incidents in January 2010,
Across the capital, between April 2009 and March 2010, homophobic crime rose by 22.2% from the previous 12 months – from 1,093 to 1,336 incidents.

But then again, this is hardly new news: http://www.pinknews.co.uk/2011/01/28/three-appear-in-court-over-anti-gay-leaflets/

Three men appeared in court today on charges of distributing threatening written material to stir up hatred on the grounds of sexual orientation.
Ihjaz Alie, 41, Mehboob Hussain, 44, and Umer Javed, 37 were charged this week over leaflets which allegedly called for gays to be killed.
Another two men, Razwan Javed, 30, and Kabir Ahmed, 27, were charged in December.
All five will appear before Derby magistrates’ court on February 14th.
They are the first to be charged under new laws against stirring up hatred on the grounds of sexual orientation.
The men were accused of handing out leaflets called ‘The Death Penalty?’ outside a Derby mosque.
The material reportedly said that gay people should be executed and the men are also accused of pushing it through letterboxes.

Do we ask the attacked Jew or the raped 13 year old first? Let’s start with Johann Hari:
http://www.johannhari.com/2011/02/25/can-we-talk-about-muslim-homophobia-now

All of which brings me to my point, which is that you simply can’t cherry pick figures based on guesses and extract a purely economic argument, without taking into account the social divisions. We’re people too, not machines.

So there you go – any questions or comments? Incidentally, it’d be interesting to see what Cameron actually does, as opposed to the rhetoric. I wonder how he’s even got time inbetween denigrating the UK, lying about ethnic intakes of Oxford and dishing out the odd £650 million in overseas “aid”.

PS, regarding the falling crime figures above, I’m with this comment: http://www.guardian.co.uk/discussion/comment-permalink/6648715

This is a complete load of doctored codswallop.

Police are solving only one in every four crimes, meaning some 3.1million offenders were able to cheat justice last year.

Only 1.2million of the 4.3million cases handled by the police were cleared up.

For burglary, the detection rate fell below 13 per cent – the equivalent of one in every eight offences.

Almost all drug offences – 94 per cent – are detected, mainly because it is relatively straightforward to clear up a case of cannabis possession, the most common crime.

If drug offences are stripped out of the overall detection rate, the number of crimes solved falls to 24 per cent. Officers blame the figure on excessive bureaucracy and paperwork.

That’s to say nothing, as stated above, of crimes that simply go unreported.

One in three men born in 1953 has been convicted of at least one criminal offence, according to research published today. This figure accounts only for those who got caught, not for the one who got away.

Crime is NOT falling. The statistics have been doctored to suit the political arena.

Quite.

UPDATE: 15/04/2011 – bonus feature.

I saw it written that  ”the segment of the population most strongly opposed to mass immigration are British Asians”. You can only imagine the shrill outrage from the left! Total bollocks, apparently. Thought I’d look it up….

Let’s start with the report from that last bastion of far right nationalist racism, the Searchlight Educational Trust.

The describe themselves thus:

“Searchlight Educational Trust is a registered charity that works with communities to build responses to racism and hatred, dispel myths and develop greater understanding.”

A widely reported study was released by them in February this year.
http://www.fearandhope.org.uk/project-report/themes

More Asians are now opposed to immigration than white Britons, according to a new poll which reveals that opposition to new arrivals now transcends race.
Research commissioned by the Searchlight Educational Trust found that 39 per cent of Asians, 34 per cent of whites and 21 per cent of blacks believed immigration should be halted either permanently or at least until the UK’s economy was back on track.

All the below are directly from the report which can be viewed at the above link.

Agreeing with the statement:
Stop all immigration until the economy improves

Asian: 29% White: 15% Black: 17%

Table summary:
“The above table suggests that 39% of Asians and 34% of whites are in a hard anti-immigration camp. Fifty-eight per cent (58%) of Asians and 62% of Whites seem pragmatic towards immigration. “

Agreeing with the statement:
Immigrants have put my job at risk
Strongly agree: Asian: 16% White: 10%

So there you go.

What’s that noise? Is it the sound of the entire left going “la la la I can’t hear you!”? Come on, grow up, eh?



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pizzahut451 said:

DEATH TO GLOBALIZATION. Every race should have its own identity and should NEVER dissaper or change itself.


Death to globalisation? You'd probably want to put an end to the Computer Age as well.



pizzahut451 said:

DEATH TO GLOBALIZATION. Every race should have its own identity and should NEVER dissaper or change itself.


I suspect you would be pleased to live under a comfortable, state of the art rock.



 

pizzahut451 said:

DEATH TO GLOBALIZATION. Every race should have its own identity and should NEVER dissaper or change itself.

Go back to the Stoneage then!



"I don't understand how someone could like Tolstoy and Dostoyevsky, but not like Twilight!!!"

"Last book I read was Brokeback Mountain, I just don't have the patience for them unless it's softcore porn."

                                                                               (The Voice of a Generation and Seece)

"If you cant stand the sound of your own voice than dont become a singer !!!!!"

                                                                               (pizzahut451)

sapphi_snake said:
snakenobi said:
sapphi_snake said:
snakenobi said:


really?

well their trading is very open

you are not looking at the power in its whole sense

 

if they make a movie,they can just bank it on their own population and make more money than the rest of the world

 

their soceity is just closed now,that way every soceity is closed to their borders but when they open like british and germans   in 19th and 20th century,they colonized the shit out of everybody else

Not really, unless their theatre prices are very very cheap. If they made a movie and charged just $1 to watch it, and the whole population of China went to see it, the movie would barely make half of what Avatar did. People in China don't have enough money to pay $10-15 to see a movei en-masse. Plus, people don't go in huge numbers to the cinema anymore in any country.

Also, you haven't been able to explain how that movie being successful in China would help it gain influence worldwide. The movie would have to be a blockbuster in every country, and they don't have any big stars that could help get people interested in it.

And China can't colonize the world, like the Europeans did, because they don't benefit of having technologically primitive enemies. If they'd try to invade another country, that would start WWIII, a war which they would lose.

i know they would have to work out the price sytem

 

i was just saying that quantity is slowly showing its strong hold

 

how can you say china doesn't have the tech,even if they don't,they have the man power to make some pretty damn fast

I'm saying China isn't the only country that has the tech, by comparison to the adverseries of European colonists, who never stood a chance

i agree but the part i am trying to convey is that china produces the spare parts for everything

they have the  reasearch and the things needed to build it

if china today says we don't supply countries anything then   thats it,we are  done



snakenobi said:

i agree but the part i am trying to convey is that china produces the spare parts for everything

they have the  reasearch and the things needed to build it

if china today says we don't supply countries anything then   thats it,we are  done


exept that that would destroy their economy and cripple the country, and then India would become more powerful than them...



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