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Forums - Sony Discussion - Sony’s War on Makers, Hackers, and Innovators

Ail on 26 February 2011
Kasz216 said:
Ail said:
Kasz216 said:
JamaicameCRAZY said:
Kasz216 said:
 

So, your trusting an Entertainment lobbying group...

over scientific studies conducted by goverment agencies.

Do you know the ESA's methods for studying the effects of piracy?  It ain't scientific.

It's called "Lets see how many downloads something has, then multiply times $60 bucks.

Also, no, the common economic belief about software piracy is... "It causes no negative of positive effect.".

Or at least that's the belief among... people who study economics... aka economists.

I would suggest reading a book or two about software priacy and the actual effect it has on stuff.  People who think it has a heavy negative effet are the same people who think gamestop are killing the Industry, when the truth is, a healthy used market INCREASES new sales.

Corporate Lobbyists like the ESA say both hurt new software sales and produce studies anyone who's taken a single research class can point out the faults of... because they know they can use that poltical clout to get concessions... to do things like limit the amount of times you can install software and find ways to force gamestop to pay the companies for the games they sell used.

You just added the 3rd link but if you read the links i posted you would see that it doesnt just include the esa it includes developers of games that know how many pirated versions of games people are using and tell you what it has done heres more for you too.

http://www.gamefront.com/thq-ceo-blames-piracy-for-close-of-titan-quest-developer/

Alan wake is another example its been pirated 1.1 million times according to one site and i dont think it has sold that much and i am sure it came very close on the chopping block. More for you.

Homebrew doesn't seem like a big problem on the DS, but Nintendo claims to have lost almost $975 million worldwide among its publishers and developers due to piracy in 2007. Who knew?

Also just because they represent micro sony and possibly ninty doesnt mean the problems are not real. Also show me where it says that they just go to torrent sites and multiply by 60$.


Show me where it doesn't say that?  Oh right, you can't... because unlike every other study, they don't release any of their methods and simply say "this is the loss!"

 

Alan Wake being pirated 1.1 million doesn't mean... anything... at all.  Because you can't prove those were lost sales.  Which is exactly the point.  You have to study the actual effects, not just count "Oh this was pirated 1.1 million times so that's 66 million dollars lost!


Actual studies say... no measurable effect/can't tell.

Actual experts say... no measurable effect/can't tell.

Lobbying groups say... big effects, give our companies money and special rights.

So again, if you want to take the opinion of lobbying groups and interested parties over the opinion of non biased researchers... sure go ahead.

Don't present it as fact though... your no better then people who listen to their pastors over scientists.

I think it goes both way.

You can't prove they were lost sales.

You can't prove they weren't either....


And yet, the scientific proof is on "not lost sales."

Until the research goes the other way...

I'm going with the way the research is leaning.

It's not stonecold proof... it can't be proved without a doubt. (few things in science and life actually can)

However, it's the best proof we have and the way proof is leaning.

It's like asking someone about the origin of the universe.

There is one scientific leading theory... and if you believe in another theory... it's probably personal prefrence.

To say it's definitly harming the industry is a ludicrius opinion.

To say unbiased studies mostly show it isn't harming the industry, or at best nobody can tell...  is a fact.

I wouldn't say it isn't positivly hurting the industry yet, but the research leans that way, and you definitly couldn't prove it in a court of law, with research leaning that way....

and it's on the accusor to prove the accused is guilty.   You could sue someone for piracy, because that's a crime, but to sue someone for second hand enabling piracy, you need to prove it's harmful.  Which you can't meet the burden of proof of in a courtroom... since well, the opposite is the most widely agreed opon.

By the way I just checked your 3 links.

You have 2 on comics, one on music, I thought this thread was about software......

The market of software and the one of comics and music are widely different in one key area :

- time to consume the product...

 

And I know you are fond of the fact that supposedly when given the choice of between buying a product and getting it for free customers would rather pay a fee except there's one key issue you always forget to mention.

This only applies when you have the same choice for every product/service you purchase.

Turns out that there are a lot of products you can't get for free ( car, house, food, electronic,...).

In that case the same adage doesn't apply anymore....

Because paying for that product you could get for free implies  limiting your purchases of those others products you can not get for free...

That is the huge advantage people see in piracy, they don't have to restrain their others hobbies/purchases for their gaming hobbies...

If they could not obtain that gaming product for free, a lot of people would probably just not get it, but others would probably decide to restrict their others hobbies or go one less time to the restaurant or the movies to afford same game.

In the end it's a wash for the overall economy. But I'm pretty sure that in terms of economics it matters for the developers and publishers whether you spend your money on their games or on movie tickets and restaurants...



PS3-Xbox360 gap : 1.5 millions and going up in PS3 favor !

PS3-Wii gap : 20 millions and going down !

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JamaicameCRAZY on 26 February 2011

@kaz

for whatever reason i cant quote but yea i would choose the industries words more so than your 2 links to anacdotal evidence and 1 link to the music industry which flat out states it doesnt apply to other industries.

 Also there is plenty of cases of piracy hurting, take titan quest developer, take the loss in sales which could've meant more money for new projects, take the ishoot game that they said they have 90% pirated gamers online and its only 1 dollar. Piracy does some good sure, i would agree but i think it hurts more than it benifits. I obviously cant prove it more than i have with my links, which i would consider leaps and bounds better than yours (and given your track record thus far in this thread with your inaccuracies/narrow view, i wouldnt believe what you say if it wasnt sourced) so...I think thats all i have to say. Good day sir.



EVERY GAMERS WORST NIGHTMARE...THE TANGLING CABLES MONSTER!

            

       Coffee is for closers!

buglebum on 26 February 2011

Geohot had this to say on the graf raid in germany...

 

Dunno if someone wants to post it as a new thread since it's kinda OT and since I'm new can't make new threads.

 

As many of you already know, 2 days ago his house was raided by the German police. Talk about a guy who clearly had no involvement at all with piracy, cheating, or the things Sony claims to care about. Do you want to know what he has that enrages the suits at Sony so much? Talent.

Some people call me immature, and you know what, they are probably right. Some call me stubborn, and they are right too. But this pales grossly in comparison to Sony, who is so butthurt over the PS3 being hacked they they are blinded by rage and incompetence.

A question, how many people do you think knew or cared on January 10 about all this? Maybe a couple hundred thousand? Under a percent of your market share. And these are geeks, who frankly aren’t going to change their content purchasing habits based on the news. These are the kind of people who really are hacking their PS3 just for the sake of doing it, just cause it’s cool. The kind of people who are telling you the truth when they say they really did just hack their PS3 to run Linux. Or they are diehard pirates who never would have bought the games anyway, you know the type.

Now fast forward to February 25. Consistently, the top Sony related news article is about the PS3 being hacked. And the causal gamer comes along and sees, oh cool, the PS3 has been hacked, now I don’t have to buy games. With a few google searches, they come across stuff that I or graf_chokolo had nothing at all to do with. They install it and hit the torrent sites. Hell, I was on a political news show last night, you think those people ever would have heard about this?

Just imagine what the third party devs are thinking. The PS3 is hacked forever and Sony can’t do anything but fire away at scapegoats. Great confidence boost.

This grand show against people who aren’t even pirates has to be one of the worst corporate moves in recent history, perhaps even as dumb as the rootkit fiasco. Your competition fixes the problem technically and moves on. They want it to stay quiet. And as far as sending a message to “evil” hackers goes, it really isn’t working. Just read the writings of graf_chokolo.

And I quote “SONY wants about 750.000 euros from me if i don’t cooperate They don’t know me at all I don’t care about it and they might double it The higher is the sum the higher gets my motivation They don’t understand what makes me tick. Money and even my life doesn’t mean to me very much without knowledge. I have a scientific mind and the knowledge is food to my brain.”

They’ll never understand people like us. They are scared, as they rightfully should be. We built your PS3. We built this world. We are not mindless consumers. It is us with the brains and curiosity, not you with the guns, jails, suits, titles, and dollars. And the truth is, if all of you disappeared tomorrow, the world would continue on fine. Good luck surviving without people like graf_chokolo.

http://geohotgotsued.blogspot.com/



Kasz216 on 26 February 2011
Ail said:
Kasz216 said:
Ail said:
Kasz216 said:
JamaicameCRAZY said:
Kasz216 said:
 

So, your trusting an Entertainment lobbying group...

over scientific studies conducted by goverment agencies.

Do you know the ESA's methods for studying the effects of piracy?  It ain't scientific.

It's called "Lets see how many downloads something has, then multiply times $60 bucks.

Also, no, the common economic belief about software piracy is... "It causes no negative of positive effect.".

Or at least that's the belief among... people who study economics... aka economists.

I would suggest reading a book or two about software priacy and the actual effect it has on stuff.  People who think it has a heavy negative effet are the same people who think gamestop are killing the Industry, when the truth is, a healthy used market INCREASES new sales.

Corporate Lobbyists like the ESA say both hurt new software sales and produce studies anyone who's taken a single research class can point out the faults of... because they know they can use that poltical clout to get concessions... to do things like limit the amount of times you can install software and find ways to force gamestop to pay the companies for the games they sell used.

You just added the 3rd link but if you read the links i posted you would see that it doesnt just include the esa it includes developers of games that know how many pirated versions of games people are using and tell you what it has done heres more for you too.

http://www.gamefront.com/thq-ceo-blames-piracy-for-close-of-titan-quest-developer/

Alan wake is another example its been pirated 1.1 million times according to one site and i dont think it has sold that much and i am sure it came very close on the chopping block. More for you.

Homebrew doesn't seem like a big problem on the DS, but Nintendo claims to have lost almost $975 million worldwide among its publishers and developers due to piracy in 2007. Who knew?

Also just because they represent micro sony and possibly ninty doesnt mean the problems are not real. Also show me where it says that they just go to torrent sites and multiply by 60$.


Show me where it doesn't say that?  Oh right, you can't... because unlike every other study, they don't release any of their methods and simply say "this is the loss!"

 

Alan Wake being pirated 1.1 million doesn't mean... anything... at all.  Because you can't prove those were lost sales.  Which is exactly the point.  You have to study the actual effects, not just count "Oh this was pirated 1.1 million times so that's 66 million dollars lost!


Actual studies say... no measurable effect/can't tell.

Actual experts say... no measurable effect/can't tell.

Lobbying groups say... big effects, give our companies money and special rights.

So again, if you want to take the opinion of lobbying groups and interested parties over the opinion of non biased researchers... sure go ahead.

Don't present it as fact though... your no better then people who listen to their pastors over scientists.

I think it goes both way.

You can't prove they were lost sales.

You can't prove they weren't either....


And yet, the scientific proof is on "not lost sales."

Until the research goes the other way...

I'm going with the way the research is leaning.

It's not stonecold proof... it can't be proved without a doubt. (few things in science and life actually can)

However, it's the best proof we have and the way proof is leaning.

It's like asking someone about the origin of the universe.

There is one scientific leading theory... and if you believe in another theory... it's probably personal prefrence.

To say it's definitly harming the industry is a ludicrius opinion.

To say unbiased studies mostly show it isn't harming the industry, or at best nobody can tell...  is a fact.

I wouldn't say it isn't positivly hurting the industry yet, but the research leans that way, and you definitly couldn't prove it in a court of law, with research leaning that way....

and it's on the accusor to prove the accused is guilty.   You could sue someone for piracy, because that's a crime, but to sue someone for second hand enabling piracy, you need to prove it's harmful.  Which you can't meet the burden of proof of in a courtroom... since well, the opposite is the most widely agreed opon.

By the way I just checked your 3 links.

You have 2 on comics, one on music, I thought this thread was about software......

The market of software and the one of comics and music are widely different in one key area :

- time to consume the product...

 

And I know you are fond of the fact that supposedly when given the choice of between buying a product and getting it for free customers would rather pay a fee except there's one key issue you always forget to mention.

This only applies when you have the same choice for every product/service you purchase.

Turns out that there are a lot of products you can't get for free ( car, house, food, electronic,...).

In that case the same adage doesn't apply anymore....

Because paying for that product you could get for free implies  limiting your purchases of those others products you can not get for free...

That is the huge advantage people see in piracy, they don't have to restrain their others hobbies/purchases for their gaming hobbies...

If they could not obtain that gaming product for free, a lot of people would probably just not get it, but others would probably decide to restrict their others hobbies or go one less time to the restaurant or the movies to afford same game.

In the end it's a wash for the overall economy. But I'm pretty sure that in terms of economics it matters for the developers and publishers whether you spend your money on their games or on movie tickets and restaurants...

You say that.  Yet the research doesn't support it.

The reason I don't quote videogame research is because nobody tends to do videogame research.

As for time to consume.  That would be in videogames interest.  The longer to consume the more likely it is to get a purchase.



Kasz216 on 26 February 2011
JamaicameCRAZY said:

@kaz

for whatever reason i cant quote but yea i would choose the industries words more so than your 2 links to anacdotal evidence and 1 link to the music industry which flat out states it doesnt apply to other industries.

 Also there is plenty of cases of piracy hurting, take titan quest developer, take the loss in sales which could've meant more money for new projects, take the ishoot game that they said they have 90% pirated gamers online and its only 1 dollar. Piracy does some good sure, i would agree but i think it hurts more than it benifits. I obviously cant prove it more than i have with my links, which i would consider leaps and bounds better than yours (and given your track record thus far in this thread with your inaccuracies/narrow view, i wouldnt believe what you say if it wasnt sourced) so...I think thats all i have to say. Good day sir.


I... haven't been inacurate about it... but yeah ok.

You've been the inaccurate one.

As for my "3 sources" those are just 3 of... many... pretty much all studies done on piracy.

Ishoot has 90% piracy and the game is only 1 dollar?  What does that tell you... outside of 90% didn't feel Ishoot games were worth 1 dollar?

That piracy exists, is no proof that piracy damages... which is what the entireity of your arguement has amounted too.

"Look there is piracy, therefore money must be lost!".

If you can't see why such an arguement is a bad one... I dont know what to say.


People made the same arguement about used books... then they did research and found used books actually caused new books to be bought, because people were more willing to pay out money knowing they could recoup some of it.



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Ail on 26 February 2011
Kasz216 said:
JamaicameCRAZY said:

@kaz

for whatever reason i cant quote but yea i would choose the industries words more so than your 2 links to anacdotal evidence and 1 link to the music industry which flat out states it doesnt apply to other industries.

 Also there is plenty of cases of piracy hurting, take titan quest developer, take the loss in sales which could've meant more money for new projects, take the ishoot game that they said they have 90% pirated gamers online and its only 1 dollar. Piracy does some good sure, i would agree but i think it hurts more than it benifits. I obviously cant prove it more than i have with my links, which i would consider leaps and bounds better than yours (and given your track record thus far in this thread with your inaccuracies/narrow view, i wouldnt believe what you say if it wasnt sourced) so...I think thats all i have to say. Good day sir.


I... haven't been inacurate about it... but yeah ok.

You've been the inaccurate one.

As for my "3 sources" those are just 3 of... many... pretty much all studies done on piracy.

Ishoot has 90% piracy and the game is only 1 dollar?  What does that tell you... outside of 90% didn't feel Ishoot games were worth 1 dollar?

That piracy exists, is no proof that piracy damages... which is what the entireity of your arguement has amounted too.

"Look there is piracy, therefore money must be lost!".

If you can't see why such an arguement is a bad one... I dont know what to say.


People made the same arguement about used books... then they did research and found used books actually caused new books to be bought, because people were more willing to pay out money knowing they could recoup some of it.

The whole industry of software says that piracy damage, they are the only one to actually be able to feel that.

And yet you keep arguing we should not listen to them but only to independant research.

Tell you what, those are business whole sole purpose is to make money, if it didn't damage them they wouldn't be spending money on DRM and lobyist because theirs shareholders really do not like wasted money....

It's like arguing that to know whether rape if a good or bad thing we should not take into account what the rape victims have to say....



PS3-Xbox360 gap : 1.5 millions and going up in PS3 favor !

PS3-Wii gap : 20 millions and going down !

Kasz216 on 26 February 2011
Ail said:
Kasz216 said:
JamaicameCRAZY said:

@kaz

for whatever reason i cant quote but yea i would choose the industries words more so than your 2 links to anacdotal evidence and 1 link to the music industry which flat out states it doesnt apply to other industries.

 Also there is plenty of cases of piracy hurting, take titan quest developer, take the loss in sales which could've meant more money for new projects, take the ishoot game that they said they have 90% pirated gamers online and its only 1 dollar. Piracy does some good sure, i would agree but i think it hurts more than it benifits. I obviously cant prove it more than i have with my links, which i would consider leaps and bounds better than yours (and given your track record thus far in this thread with your inaccuracies/narrow view, i wouldnt believe what you say if it wasnt sourced) so...I think thats all i have to say. Good day sir.


I... haven't been inacurate about it... but yeah ok.

You've been the inaccurate one.

As for my "3 sources" those are just 3 of... many... pretty much all studies done on piracy.

Ishoot has 90% piracy and the game is only 1 dollar?  What does that tell you... outside of 90% didn't feel Ishoot games were worth 1 dollar?

That piracy exists, is no proof that piracy damages... which is what the entireity of your arguement has amounted too.

"Look there is piracy, therefore money must be lost!".

If you can't see why such an arguement is a bad one... I dont know what to say.


People made the same arguement about used books... then they did research and found used books actually caused new books to be bought, because people were more willing to pay out money knowing they could recoup some of it.

The whole industry of software says that piracy damage, they are the only one to actually be able to feel that.

And yet you keep arguing we should not listen to them but only to independant research.

Tell you what, those are business whole sole purpose is to make money, if it didn't damage them they wouldn't be spending money on DRM and lobyist because theirs shareholders really do not like wasted money....

It's like arguing that to know whether rape if a good or bad thing we should not take into account what the rape victims have to say....

Er... in appropriate analogy is SUPER inapropriate.  You owe quite the apology to rape victims for even beggining to try and compare the two.

Also, you know... Rape victims know they are raped, and know they are being harmed.  Because they are actually being raped.

Software executives don't have a clue if piracy hurts them or if piracy doesn't hurt them.  How would they?  Because they don't think they're making as much money as they should?  How would they know how much money they're supposed to be making?

Most don't have the actual background to understand... anything about it.

Unlike... economists. 

 

Who knows more about if you have disease or not and how bad it is?  The patient, or the Doctor diagnosing him?  


The patients opinion matters... but only until the experts weighs in.  


If you keep saying "something doesn't feel right, I know i'm sick".

Yet all the doctors keep saying "Your fine."  chances are, your a hypochondriac.



JamaicameCRAZY on 26 February 2011
Kasz216 said:
JamaicameCRAZY said:

@kaz

for whatever reason i cant quote but yea i would choose the industries words more so than your 2 links to anacdotal evidence and 1 link to the music industry which flat out states it doesnt apply to other industries.

 Also there is plenty of cases of piracy hurting, take titan quest developer, take the loss in sales which could've meant more money for new projects, take the ishoot game that they said they have 90% pirated gamers online and its only 1 dollar. Piracy does some good sure, i would agree but i think it hurts more than it benifits. I obviously cant prove it more than i have with my links, which i would consider leaps and bounds better than yours (and given your track record thus far in this thread with your inaccuracies/narrow view, i wouldnt believe what you say if it wasnt sourced) so...I think thats all i have to say. Good day sir.


I... haven't been inacurate about it... but yeah ok.

You've been the inaccurate one.

As for my "3 sources" those are just 3 of... many... pretty much all studies done on piracy.

Ishoot has 90% piracy and the game is only 1 dollar?  What does that tell you... outside of 90% didn't feel Ishoot games were worth 1 dollar?

That piracy exists, is no proof that piracy damages... which is what the entireity of your arguement has amounted too.

"Look there is piracy, therefore money must be lost!".

If you can't see why such an arguement is a bad one... I dont know what to say.


People made the same arguement about used books... then they did research and found used books actually caused new books to be bought, because people were more willing to pay out money knowing they could recoup some of it.



i and others have had to correct you multiple times, right? Seriously just because you want to be right doesnt mean you are...

Where have i been inaccurate?

Umm, ALL studies would include mine which refute what you are saying and they are actually done on gaming piracy, yours were 2 comics (anctdotal ones at that) and 1 on music which flat out tells you in it that it doesnt apply to other industries (and it was also a very small study which can be pro any agenda you wish Ex. i sampled 100 xbox 360 users 62 had RROD guess that means 360 has a 62% failure rate.)

Or 90% got it for free and decided hey why bother paying for it? Also i said playing the multiplayer so if they dont like it why would they be playing it. And my whole comment is proof that piracy hurts..Now does it hurt the industry as we have said thats up for debate. I also would like to say that piracy doesnt benifit anymore than a demo, beta, or trial of a  game would.

Developers closing down is hardly hey there must be money lost, it is money lost and people losing jobs.

I dont consider used game sales to be piracy so...



EVERY GAMERS WORST NIGHTMARE...THE TANGLING CABLES MONSTER!

            

       Coffee is for closers!

Kasz216 on 26 February 2011
JamaicameCRAZY said:
Kasz216 said:
JamaicameCRAZY said:

@kaz

for whatever reason i cant quote but yea i would choose the industries words more so than your 2 links to anacdotal evidence and 1 link to the music industry which flat out states it doesnt apply to other industries.

 Also there is plenty of cases of piracy hurting, take titan quest developer, take the loss in sales which could've meant more money for new projects, take the ishoot game that they said they have 90% pirated gamers online and its only 1 dollar. Piracy does some good sure, i would agree but i think it hurts more than it benifits. I obviously cant prove it more than i have with my links, which i would consider leaps and bounds better than yours (and given your track record thus far in this thread with your inaccuracies/narrow view, i wouldnt believe what you say if it wasnt sourced) so...I think thats all i have to say. Good day sir.


I... haven't been inacurate about it... but yeah ok.

You've been the inaccurate one.

As for my "3 sources" those are just 3 of... many... pretty much all studies done on piracy.

Ishoot has 90% piracy and the game is only 1 dollar?  What does that tell you... outside of 90% didn't feel Ishoot games were worth 1 dollar?

That piracy exists, is no proof that piracy damages... which is what the entireity of your arguement has amounted too.

"Look there is piracy, therefore money must be lost!".

If you can't see why such an arguement is a bad one... I dont know what to say.


People made the same arguement about used books... then they did research and found used books actually caused new books to be bought, because people were more willing to pay out money knowing they could recoup some of it.



i and others have had to correct you multiple times, right? Seriously just because you want to be right doesnt mean you are...

Where have i been inaccurate?

Umm, ALL studies would include mine which refute what you are saying and they are actually done on gaming piracy, yours were 2 comics (anctdotal ones at that) and 1 on music which flat out tells you in it that it doesnt apply to other industries (and it was also a very small study which can be pro any agenda you wish Ex. i sampled 100 xbox 360 users 62 had RROD guess that means 360 has a 62% failure rate.)

Or 90% got it for free and decided hey why bother paying for it? Also i said playing the multiplayer so if they dont like it why would they be playing it. And my whole comment is proof that piracy hurts..Now does it hurt the industry as we have said thats up for debate. I also would like to say that piracy doesnt benifit anymore than a demo, beta, or trial of a  game would.

Developers closing down is hardly hey there must be money lost, it is money lost and people losing jobs.

I dont consider used game sales to be piracy so...

Except... your studies... weren't studies.  They were paid reports which never saw publication and whose data is locked up, with just the few things stated being what copaneis want you to hear.

Also, they were't about "comics" so you wren't reading too well.

None of your comments are "proof of piracy" they are... your comments... ill informed comments according to consensus.

Developers closing down had NOTHING to do with piracy.  I don't know if you've noticed, but largely the reason developers have closed down this gen have been skyrocketing costs to MAKE games.

Game companies DO see used game sales as bad as piracy, a lot actually see it as worse because not only do the developers get no money... but someone else does!  It's like bootlegging.

Also, you should note, piracy actually drives sales as well.  There are games bought via piracy that wouldn't of been bought without it.   That's why there is generally zero effect when it comes to piracy research.

Though very small amount of people who would of bought the product without piracy, but don't know... is prety much always offset by the amount of people who bought the game after pirating it, with no intent to purchase it before, or the people who knew the pirate, saw the game and bought it themselves.

 

The problem is, you aren't looking at the big picture, or the credible research.  Instead for some reason you want to go with paid lobbiests.  These are the same kinds of people that do research for republicans and democrats to get conflicting reports for the same political agendas they want to get passed.

 

The difference is, this is a 1-sided lobby because there really isn't much of a "Pro-piracy" lobbying engine... because at best people say "Morally wrong, but studies show it doesn't actually hurt."

Because, that's what the unbiased studies show.



JamaicameCRAZY on 26 February 2011
Kasz216 said:

Except... your studies... weren't studies.  They were paid reports which never saw publication and whose data is locked up, with just the few things stated being what copaneis want you to hear.

Also, they were't about "comics" so you wren't reading too well.

None of your comments are "proof of piracy" they are... your comments... ill informed comments according to consensus.

Developers closing down had NOTHING to do with piracy.  I don't know if you've noticed, but largely the reason developers have closed down this gen have been skyrocketing costs to MAKE games.


The data i have been giving you is part from the group you call lobbiest and the others are quotes from the developers or publishers of the games...

All i could make out of the pictures was anime i originally said dvds but the other kid said comics so i went with him. Anyway it really doesnt mean much its still all based around 1 thing with is ancdotal...so it means nothing its not even a source..

Again my comments are quotes from developers or the "lobbiests".. the one ishoot ssthing was me paraphrasing what they said. Yours are all your opinions or perceptions of things which mean nothing like i said without a source. And i gave you a link to the titan quest developer and they literally said piracy was why they closed down, there was other factors they mentioned too but piracy was the main reason. So again you are incorrect.



EVERY GAMERS WORST NIGHTMARE...THE TANGLING CABLES MONSTER!

            

       Coffee is for closers!