So, your trusting an Entertainment lobbying group...

over scientific studies conducted by goverment agencies.

Do you know the ESA's methods for studying the effects of piracy?  It ain't scientific.

It's called "Lets see how many downloads something has, then multiply times $60 bucks.

Also, no, the common economic belief about software piracy is... "It causes no negative of positive effect.".

Or at least that's the belief among... people who study economics... aka economists.

I would suggest reading a book or two about software priacy and the actual effect it has on stuff.  People who think it has a heavy negative effet are the same people who think gamestop are killing the Industry, when the truth is, a healthy used market INCREASES new sales.

Corporate Lobbyists like the ESA say both hurt new software sales and produce studies anyone who's taken a single research class can point out the faults of... because they know they can use that poltical clout to get concessions... to do things like limit the amount of times you can install software and find ways to force gamestop to pay the companies for the games they sell used.

I'll take the opinions and studies of unbiased college studies, and biased (towards companies) but can't lie government studies over studies done by people in the ESA and other lobbying groups, who don't even release their studies for peer review!

You are basically saying "I trust them, because they told me so, and showed me no proof.  While I don't believe people who's studies are in the public sector and are willing to show me all the numbers.

Seriously someone cant lose their info from any of those ways, i dont have to source thats its possible. Everybody  knows its possible and again if you read my stuff i am just showing you your wrong. You said there is only one way to have your account info stolen which is false just because you cant use your imagination or look it up doesnt just make it impossible.

No, like I seriously don't understand your point here... what is the point you are trying to make.  How does ANY of this have to do with Geohot?

We were talking about the ways people could lose their information... due to Geohot right?  Which would be, downloading illegal firmware that somebody else made... and that's it.

As for hacking into PSN and stealing info... that has nothing to do with Geohot, and if it ever did happen... would be done via computer.  I mean, could someone who works at Sony just look, steal a bunch of credit card  info and email it to all his friends?

Yes.  I don't see what that has to do with anything?

You just added the 3rd link but if you read the links i posted you would see that it doesnt just include the esa it includes developers of games that know how many pirated versions of games people are using and tell you what it has done heres more for you too.

http://www.gamefront.com/thq-ceo-blames-piracy-for-close-of-titan-quest-developer/

Alan wake is another example its been pirated 1.1 million times according to one site and i dont think it has sold that much and i am sure it came very close on the chopping block. More for you.

Homebrew doesn't seem like a big problem on the DS, but Nintendo claims to have lost almost $975 million worldwide among its publishers and developers due to piracy in 2007. Who knew?

Also just because they represent micro sony and possibly ninty doesnt mean the problems are not real. Also show me where it says that they just go to torrent sites and multiply by 60$.

Your 3rd link is almost as bad as the first 2 and even states it doesnt exactly know the effect of piracy because its quite difficult to determine because their is several factors to take into account. Furthermore,  this snippet tells you it cannot be applied to the gaming industry.

The authors come to the conclusion that there is no “rule of thumb” that measures the effects of “piracy” on an industry or even on the economy as a whole, since “piracy” rates completely differ across different industries.

This too just shows that if its such a difficult thing to diagnose then why only 12 interviews, some interviewing of industry associates, and 3 relevant studies of p2p isnt nearly enough to give an accurate assement of piracy as a whole. so its mostly just refering to piracy in this small instance.

Although the GAO-report provides critical insights on the economic effects of “piracy”, the statements are not based on primary surveys and sources. Instead the authors conducted twelve structured expert interviews with government officials, academics, and other stakeholdern and also drew upon information gained from conversations with industry associations and other organizations outside the structured interview process. Moreover, the authors reviewed quantitative as well as qualitative studies published since 1999 of the impact of “piracy”. However, it should be noted that only three relevant studies on P2P music file sharing were included in the study

Holy crap, don't you people know how to edit messages?

im sorry im trying, lol.

Show me where it doesn't say that?  Oh right, you can't... because unlike every other study, they don't release any of their methods and simply say "this is the loss!"

Alan Wake being pirated 1.1 million doesn't mean... anything... at all.  Because you can't prove those were lost sales.  Which is exactly the point.  You have to study the actual effects, not just count "Oh this was pirated 1.1 million times so that's 66 million dollars lost!

Actual studies say... no measurable effect/can't tell.

Actual experts say... no measurable effect/can't tell.

Lobbying groups say... big effects, give our companies money and special rights.

So again, if you want to take the opinion of lobbying groups and interested parties over the opinion of non biased researchers... sure go ahead.

Don't present it as fact though... your no better then people who listen to their pastors over scientists.

I think it goes both way.

You can't prove they were lost sales.

You can't prove they weren't either....

And yet, the scientific proof is on "not lost sales."

Until the research goes the other way...

I'm going with the way the research is leaning.

It's not stonecold proof... it can't be proved without a doubt. (few things in science and life actually can)

However, it's the best proof we have and the way proof is leaning.

It's like asking someone about the origin of the universe.

There is one scientific leading theory... and if you believe in another theory... it's probably personal prefrence.

To say it's definitly harming the industry is a ludicrius opinion.

To say unbiased studies mostly show it isn't harming the industry, or at best nobody can tell...  is a fact.

I wouldn't say it isn't positivly hurting the industry yet, but the research leans that way, and you definitly couldn't prove it in a court of law, with research leaning that way....

and it's on the accusor to prove the accused is guilty.   You could sue someone for piracy, because that's a crime, but to sue someone for second hand enabling piracy, you need to prove it's harmful.  Which you can't meet the burden of proof of in a courtroom... since well, the opposite is the most widely agreed opon.