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Forums - General Discussion - Islam and Christianity are almost the same!

valleyshrew said:

Why do muslims hate homosexuals so much? Afaik it's not really mentioned in the holy books. But looking at surveys on it:
Not a single mosque openly accepts gay members.
Gallup survey can’t find a single British Muslim who approves of homosexuality.
68% of american muslims support the death penalty against homosexuals.
27% of hate crimes against homosexuals committed in UK by Muslims (3% of population).

I know from personal experience muslims are the most hostile towards us, Christians often say bad things but they will not wish death upon you for what you do in your personal life (except in uganda apparently).

I don't like how you are insinuating you're a true muslim and all that you say is correct while anyone else is not a real muslim. For example, to most muslims there are 2 holy books, the Qu'ran and the Sunnah (or 3 if you count the Sunnah as it's sperate parts, the Hadith and Sira). You strangely don't recognise the existence of the Sunnah yet give over emphasis on the bible/torah/zabur which aren't very important in islam. A muslim cannot read the bible or torah as a religious text, the qu'ran retells the important stories from these many times and stands alone for muslims.

You also don't provide any sources for any of your statements, which are merely opinions that many muslims would disagree strongly with. I would question whether you have even read the qu'ran or whether you are forbidden to do so because it would be worrying to you (Qu'ran 5:101-102).

"Muslims do not hate Jews or Christians!"

Yes there are some passages, the very last verse of the qu'ran in fact, that preaches tolerance towards other religions, but it is preceded by line after line of hatred.

There are only 2 ways you can judge the muslim population: by what is written in the holy books; and by the actions and views (opinion polls) of the adherents. I have looked at both before coming to any conclusions.

5:14 And with those who say: "Lo! we are Christians," We made a covenant, but they forgot a part of that whereof they were admonished. Therefor We have stirred up enmity and hatred among them...

3:118: O ye who believe! Take not for intimates others than your own folk, who would spare no pains to ruin you; they love to hamper you. Hatred is revealed by (the utterance of) their mouths, but that which their breasts hide is greater.

Christians and Jews are described as "those who earn Allah's anger," and "those who go astray", and "they whom Allah hath cursed". Jews are said to have been turned into apes and called the greediest of all mankind. "Verily evil is their handiwork." Countless times the qu'ran talks about having prepared a fire for all non-muslims in which they will burn for eternity, and muslims will get to see it and laugh (83:34). The qu'ran says not to be friends with non-muslims or you are one of them (5:51). A total of 527 verses preach hatred towards non-muslims. And a statistical analysis shows 61% of the qu'ran is about non-muslims. It's common for all religions and even political groups to preach hatred towards outsiders, it's a good way to survive and propogate.

In Islamic law if you leave the faith, you are to be put to death (after being given a chance to come back). 61% of british muslims want this introduced in britain.

Ok so we've looked at the qu'ran, but religious people don't 100% live their religious texts as it is impossible, but the opinion polls also show a strong hatred towards specifically Jews, but all nonmuslims also.

40% of British Muslims believe Jews are "a legitimate target". 100% of people in Jordan, Lebanon view jews unfavourably. Egypt, Qatar and Saudi Arabia all promote Holocaust denial and protect Holocaust deniers. Jewish victims of hate crimes outnumber Muslim victims by a 10-1 ratio in the usa. At protests muslims hold signs saying "behead those who insult islam" and "freedom of expression go to hell". Just google image search "islam protest sign". These are not all extremists, the normal moderate muslims are the same.

"Muslims do not encourange killings!

As a proud Muslim I can say that nowhere in the Quran does it say to kill a person."

You are surely deliberately lieing about this, or have certainly not read the qu'ran. If I was a muslim I would not waste any of my time until I had read all the holy texts, to ensure I was not sinning. Why do religious people not do this? A muslim I know told me he wasn't allowed to read the Qu'ran because he couldn't speak Arabic and english translations were corrupted by Djinns... How can you even call yourself a muslim if you haven't read it?

"And slay them wherever ye find them, and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution is worse than slaughter."

Sure, the verse is about killing people who have attacked you in the past, but you say nowhere in the qu'ran does it say to kill and quite clearly you are wrong. There are many other passages about killing I can find if you want.

"Another thing you should address is the term "Jihad"."


How about a little honestly instead of rehashing deceptive muslim apologist talking points? Fact: 3% of hadiths are about jihad as inner struggle, 97% are about violence. Islam is a violent religion and it is from the very beginning. Mohammad tried hard to preach peacefully in Mecca for 13 years, he gained few followers. He then moved to Medina where he was involved in regular attacks for the rest of his life, and he became ruler of Arabia without any enemies left standing. Islam has been so succesful because it is a political doctrine more than a religious one.

If Islam is a religion of peace then the most islamic countries should be the most peaceful right? But strangely the 5 at the bottom of the Global Peace Index are all Islamic and the only Islamic near the top is Qatar (15th). Is it really a coincidence? Is it a coincidence that Sweden, Japan, Norway etc. are the top countries of the peace index and the human developmental index, and they are the least religious countries?

Islam is fundamentally opposed to both democracy and freedom of speech. Islamic terrorists are 100% influenced by religion, there is no other way a person could be convinced to blow up others and himself, than if he was promised with an afterlife in paradise. Studies of islamic terrorists show them to have less mental illness than the general population, and that they are generally well educated. It is a fallacy to deny that they are really muslims. If true muslims hate terrorism why do only 28% of nigerian muslims oppose suicide bombing? A poll showed that a quarter of British Muslims sympathise with the motives of the London bombers. An undercover survey of more than 100 mosques showed 75% of U.S. mosques preach terrorism.

A few questions for you peace loving muslims:
1. Do you accept homosexuals deserve to live and not be harassed?
2. Have you read the Qu'ran and Sunnah?
3. Do you accept the holocaust happened?
4. Do you accept evolution happens?
5. Do you think it is right to kill someone who leaves islam?
6. Is it right to stone to death an adulterer?
7. Is it good that 68% of Punjabi girls have been molested?
8. Must non-muslims refrain from all criticisms of Islam or warrant beheading?

I realise there is only one islamic answer to these questions, it's for the non-muslims to see. You don't like to talk about what you really believe, just insisting you are peaceful and crying persecution. To see what persecution is really like try being a homosexual Jewish atheist in an islamic country.


Hello,

As a scholar in several disciplines including religions, I want to clarify a few issues here:

=> Why do muslims hate homosexuals so much?

Muslims (or Christians or Jews for that matter) do not hate homoesexuals, they just do not approve of their lifestyles. Islam, among three, is actually the most tolerant one, with little disregard to the individuals but completely against that the idea that homosexuality is normal. It accepts homosexual individuals as long as they stay celibate and do not claim to be normal. Islam forbids all sorts of discrimination against homosexuals although distorting the family values by modern homosexual rights such as gay marriage are deemed detrimental to the society thus banned and often penalized. You may disagree but cannot claim against.

=>  I know from personal experience muslims are the most hostile towards us.

This is a completely subjective and biased opinion or impression. I have had tons of muslim friends, and did not see any difference other than the usual tension between different cultures. If anything, it's the Christian world that was hostile to the Islamic Countries. It's Serbia & Croatia who massacred Bosnians, It's the Russians who masscared the Chechens, Its the Russians & Americans who invaded Afganistan, It's the US who invaded Iraq, It's the British & US backed Israel who invaded Palestine, it's the Western World who occupied exploited Middle East as well as other nations and so on... Now who is hostile?

=> to most muslims there are 2 holy books, the Qu'ran and the Sunna...

There is only 1 Holy Book that Muslims regard as true, which is Qu'ran. The Sunnah is the stories and words of the Prophet Muhammed, which is often an explanation to Qu'ran and the other social topics in details. The Sunnah, though important, is not the word of God, and only of small fraction of it is definitely binding.

=> Islam is fundamentally opposed to both democracy and freedom of speech.

Democracy is the product of the modern ages, who knows what system we will have in the next century, so please do not speak as if democracy is the absolute truth. There is more war and violence today in the world during the reign of democracy. There has been the bloodiest masscares throughout the world during the democracy age.

On the other hand, Islam is not fundamentally opposed to democracy. It is just not as liberal, and the rules are stricter. Another major difference is that the state is not secular, which is the main concern for many. However, Islam itself does not impose a certain ruling body itself and is compatible with many man-made systems as long as they do not violate the main principles of the religion.

Speaking of liberalism, as a person residing in the US, but not American, I'd thought I'd have relatively more freedom. I was wrong. There are so many restrictions that I had not even known existed. Of course America is more free in certain aspects but also lacks freedom in many others, which is close to impossible to perceive without living outside the US. At the end of the day, you recognize, Iranians' freedom, for instance, is not less than Americans, an awful truth! (And Iran is far from being a liberal Islamic country!).

Ok, let me answer the following questions objectively ...

A few questions for you peace loving muslims:
1. Do you accept homosexuals deserve to live and not be harassed?

Islam does not encourage discrimination to homosexuals. However, if they engage in criminal activities according to Islamic principles, they are punished like all criminals. Some acts today that are not defined as crimes might be deemed as crimes in Islamic rules. Claiming that Homosexuality is normal or engaging in gay sex, for instance, are crimes within Islamic principles.


2. Have you read the Qu'ran and Sunnah?

As a religious scholar, I read all the old & new testament & Quran. I read verses of other Holy Scripts as well. However, one cannot read the Sunnah entirely since there are literally hundreds of thousands of verses conveyed, which is not necessary either. Also the majority of those verses are either wronged or falsified. Thus muslims read only a certified selection of the Sunnah such as Kutubu sittah

3. Do you accept the holocaust happened?

This has nothing to do with the religion. Some people do, some people do not. Those who doubt, do it because of the Jewish media, which has the power to bend the public opinion towards their own interests, and fabricate all sorts of news, as in the example of the occupation of Palestine. Regardless of the true nature of the holocaust, these people have right to not believe. In democracy, you have freedom to believe, don't you?

4. Do you accept evolution happens?

Evolution does happen and the general opinion implicitly accepts this. However, they do not know this. The notions are quite different there. The evolution is developed by the mastermind of getting rid of GOD in science, which caused reactions from the Christian World. Evolution in Islamic was basically accepted and freely discussed before the influences of the Western Sphere, however, their version of Evolution, with a God-Defying nature, and the natural reaction from the Church, turned the tides up, leading to a total rejection of the theory. Today, there are alternative mainstream ideas in Islamic countries, supporting the idea of evolution with a God-centric perspective. The Summary of this idea is "God creates thru evolution".

5. Do you think it is right to kill someone who leaves islam?

This is a very close-minded and era-specific judgement. By today's standards, this cannot be true and you shouldn't try to understand things out of context, especially in law.

6. Is it right to stone to death an adulterer?

Please see my answer to 5.

7. Is it good that 68% of Punjabi girls have been molested?

This has nothing to do with Islam but more about the development of a country. The situation was reversed several centuries ago.


8. Must non-muslims refrain from all criticisms of Islam or warrant beheading?

Apparently you read the extreme literal interpretations of Islam, wahabism maybe? The answer is of course not.

 

There are too many misconceptions in this passage. If you are serious and sincere in your thoughts, please come back with an open-mind and learn things right from the true source.



Playstation 5 vs XBox Series Market Share Estimates

Regional Analysis  (only MS and Sony Consoles)
Europe     => XB1 : 23-24 % vs PS4 : 76-77%
N. America => XB1 :  49-52% vs PS4 : 48-51%
Global     => XB1 :  32-34% vs PS4 : 66-68%

Sales Estimations for 8th Generation Consoles

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Mendicate Bias said:
Lostplanet22 said:
Cirio said:

I think the problem is that most people view Islam negatively because of how it is preceived in the media. I wouldn't blame him for his claims because all he (and millions others) probably see is the news is a desert area with sweaty men wearing turbans with big beards and women covering their entire bodies up walking barefoot on sand. Unfortunately, those places shown in the news aren't developed nations and have government corruption plus low education rates. Whenever a society is "pressed in" because of powerful governments and weak education, they tend to turn towards more conservative values and religion as a basis for their daily life. In this case, the view that Muslims only think conservatively and don't question anything written in the Quran is what is perceived through the news. It is the same with other religions such as Latin American Christians in under-developed nations.

I bet most people would be surprised if I showed them how liberal the Muslims in Dubai are, or how the Muslim women there wear low-cut shirts and tight jeans. But the reason for that is because Dubai is a financially stable country with a good education system and a responsive government. Even many parts of Pakistan are like this, but of course, the news will only show the Northwestern regions that border Afghanistan which are fairly deserted areas.

Liberal?  That's why the British couple had to go to jail for a kiss?  If that is kind of Liberal you like I pass;.

They went to jail for having sex on the beach after a cop had already come by once and told them to stop, and they weren't a couple.

Meant this:

A British woman convicted of indecency for kissing a man in Dubai demanded to be jailed immediately yesterday so she can 'get on with her life'.

Estate agent Charlotte Adams spoke after she and Ayman Najafi, 24, lost their appeal against a one-month prison sentence.

They were allegedly seen passionately kissing and fondling each other in a restaurant - a breach of Dubai's strict public decency laws.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldnews/article-1263598/Jail-I-life-says-Dubai-kiss-girl-gives-appeal-30-day-sentence-indecency.html




 

freedquaker said:

 

=> Why do muslims hate homosexuals so much?

Muslims (or Christians or Jews for that matter) do not hate homoesexuals, they just do not approve of their lifestyles. Islam, among three, is actually the most tolerant one, with little disregard to the individuals but completely against that the idea that homosexuality is normal. It accepts homosexual individuals as long as they stay celibate and do not claim to be normal. Islam forbids all sorts of discrimination against homosexuals although distorting the family values by modern homosexual rights such as gay marriage are deemed detrimental to the society thus banned and often penalized. You may disagree but cannot claim against.

Homosexuality is normal. Its present in other creatures within the animal kindom such as Bonobos. It occurs in all human civilisations.

I would not call it tolerant to demand celibacy for an entire demographic of the population. It is discrimantory.

How does a gay couple distort normal family values? Hetrosexual couples will still get married and have kids and have traditional families, having a gay couple next door wont stop that.



Smidlee said:
babuks said:
richardhutnik said:

So, on the surface, it would seem they are similar.  But, by making Jesus an unessential and an afterthought just touched on in the Quran, makes it really hard to considered they are similar. I also think a Muslim would find it outright weird to think of a group of some people of The Book, to be part of Christ's body. After all, why would a prophet have a body made up of people of the Book.


Enough talk from laymen. Listen to someone learned of both the religions and scriptures:

 

Just follow Youtube link to get other lectures on the same topic.

I noticed he didin't quote Jesus stating " Before Abraham was, I AM. The very next verse states the Pharisees were picking up stones to kill him? Why? Because they understand Jesus identify himself equal with God , The great "I AM"
 According to this video Muslims would have join with the Pharisees in that day.

That verse is even problematic if you just take it to be that Jesus says he was before Abraham was, meaning he existed before then. That alone, besides the "I AM" (what the 4 letters without vowels name means), is problematic, if you are arguing from a Muslim perspective.  Would a Muslim say Jesus was before Abraham was?

Also, the text in John 10 looks problematic from a Muslim perspective also:

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John 10&version=NIV

 25 Jesus answered, “I did tell you, but you do not believe. The works I do in my Father’s name testify about me, 26 but you do not believe because you are not my sheep. 27 My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all[c]; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand. 30 I and the Father are one.”

 31 Again his Jewish opponents picked up stones to stone him, 32 but Jesus said to them, “I have shown you many good works from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?”

 33 “We are not stoning you for any good work,” they replied, “but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God.”

 34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, ‘I have said you are “gods”’[d]? 35 If he called them ‘gods,’ to whom the word of God came—and Scripture cannot be set aside— 36 what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, ‘I am God’s Son’? 37 Do not believe me unless I do the works of my Father. 38 But if I do them, even though you do not believe me, believe the works, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father.” 39 Again they tried to seize him, but he escaped their grasp.

 

Several things there.  You see where Jesus is claimed to said he is equal to God in that, and references "gods".  Is this fitting of Islam?  This would also go with the video I saw, which I recall had the speaker say nowhere does Jesus claim to be God's son.  Muslims refute this, but you keep seeing it, particularly in the gospel of John.   Anyone who is Muslim would be best to NOT say that Islam and Christaintiy are almost the same thing.  They are not.  Essential points to the Christian faith are seen as wrong at least, if outright the worst sin of all types. 



sad.man.loves.vgc said:
babuks said:
highwaystar101 said:
babuks said:


I would like to answer a few:

1. If it is an Islamic country, there is no place for homosexuals. Do you have place for Child Pornography? No! How did you draw line between a homosexual and child pornographer? Your drawing this line is based on what you think right and what you don't. Likewise, Islam also thinks in certain way.

I'm sorry, but this is the single most disgusting thing I have read in this thread.

You are comparing two consenting adults in a loving relationship to the often violent sexual abuse of exploited children?

No, you are comparing two completely different things.

Most homosexual couples, like most heterosexual couples, are in a relationship based around a love they feel for each other. In most cases they do not wish to cause any harm to their partner, they can have all the love and respect that any heterosexual couple would have.

Child pornography on the other hand is a sexual desire which only breeds violence and abuse which ruins the lives of the exploited children. It is almost always (as in 99% of cases) like this.

If homosexuality came with the abuse, exploitation and suffering that child abuse came with, then it would be banned in a second and everyone would be against it. But it doesn't.

Fair enough a moral line is hard to draw, morals are a relative thing, but you have chosen two things that are far removed form each other.

I am not comparing two different things. This was for example. And also I asked in a later post, whether a girl of 16 years old does possess understanding of having sex or not? Don't think that I gave example of a 5 year old girl. A girl of 16 years does have understanding yet it is illegal to have sex or even take naked picture of her even if she gives her consent.

 

WHY?

dude, here is a little story for you:

I was born in an Islamic country.

I was  A VERY RELIGIOUS MAN, I used to read Quran and study hadith regularly. My family are religious too. To cut a long story short I realised I was gay when I was 15 years old and my world collapsed. I prayed for miracles and I loathed myself for 6 years I asked god to cure me everyday. I used to save up money to go to a therapist and I WAS  A FREAKING KID. My life pretty much sucks now and I am being too desperate for any kind of human contact it is not even funny, I fucking can't wait to leave the middle east. Did I choose this? why would I choose this? why would choose such a sucky life? Being gay isn't a choice and you claim your god then why would he punish me for this?

I want to believe in God I really want to but I can't find my way, god if you are reading this, show me the way.

I mean, WOW! Sad story (if true) but being gay is not genetical. You have your way out. Just consult the right psychriatist.

God gave us free will to do whatever we choose to do. But then he provided guidelines what to do and what not. You are to decide to which path you go.



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FaRmLaNd said:
freedquaker said:

 

=> Why do muslims hate homosexuals so much?

Muslims (or Christians or Jews for that matter) do not hate homoesexuals, they just do not approve of their lifestyles. Islam, among three, is actually the most tolerant one, with little disregard to the individuals but completely against that the idea that homosexuality is normal. It accepts homosexual individuals as long as they stay celibate and do not claim to be normal. Islam forbids all sorts of discrimination against homosexuals although distorting the family values by modern homosexual rights such as gay marriage are deemed detrimental to the society thus banned and often penalized. You may disagree but cannot claim against.

Homosexuality is normal. Its present in other creatures within the animal kindom such as Bonobos. It occurs in all human civilisations.

I would not call it tolerant to demand celibacy for an entire demographic of the population. It is discrimantory.

How does a gay couple distort normal family values? Hetrosexual couples will still get married and have kids and have traditional families, having a gay couple next door wont stop that.

This is your perspective conditioned by the today's media. Homosexuality, which involves two individuals engaging in sexual activity in a non-procreative way is in no way normal. The two genders are created for each other, not the other way around. Only a fraction of homosexuality today can scientifically be attributed to genetical heritage (I have a paper on this issue, which could not be refuted), and even then it does not mean it is normal, natural or justified. The portion that is naturally claimed by genetic disposition is around 2% (way below 5% of the probable fenotype), is no more than other disfunctions exhibited in the animal kingdom observed, which doesn't make it normal. When you are born with two 6 fingers or one kidney, it's still an anomaly. Besides, the genetic occurence of homosexuality is not due to a direct effect, otherwise, the homosexuals, who cannot procreate would have been extinct long ago. It's an anomaly that happens somewhat randomly. In other words, two complete straightforward parents with complete straight forward ancestry can still have homosexual kids at birth. Therefore this is not a direct genetic heritage, ruling out the norm. On top of that, around 60% of the homosexuals were not homosexuals at birth, but became one due to environmental influence.

It's not discrimatory, and modern world's understanding is distorted. By your logic, it's discrimatory to ban people from besitality, or from sex with minors. In besitality case, you don't know if the animal concedes or not, and in sex minors case, you do not care about his/her consent. Gay marriage distorts family values because children are supposed to grow up in a family with a mother and a father, not two fathers or mothers, which is totally unnatural.



Playstation 5 vs XBox Series Market Share Estimates

Regional Analysis  (only MS and Sony Consoles)
Europe     => XB1 : 23-24 % vs PS4 : 76-77%
N. America => XB1 :  49-52% vs PS4 : 48-51%
Global     => XB1 :  32-34% vs PS4 : 66-68%

Sales Estimations for 8th Generation Consoles

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ISLAMIC JIHAD IN NUMBERS

Tears of Jihad
These figures are a rough estimate of the death of non-Muslims by the political act of jihad.

Africa

Thomas Sowell [Thomas Sowell, Race and Culture, BasicBooks, 1994, p. 188] estimates that 11 million slaves were shipped across the Atlantic and 14 million were sent to the Islamic nations of North Africa and the Middle East. For every slave captured many others died. Estimates of this collateral damage vary. The renowned missionary David Livingstone estimated that for every slave who reached a plantation, five others were killed in the initial raid or died of illness and privation on the forced march.[Woman’s Presbyterian Board of Missions, David Livingstone, p. 62, 1888] Those who were left behind were the very young, the weak, the sick and the old. These soon died since the main providers had been killed or enslaved. So, for 25 million slaves delivered to the market, we have an estimated death of about 120 million people. Islam ran the wholesale slave trade in Africa.

120 million Africans

-

Christians

The number of Christians martyred by Islam is 9 million [David B. Barrett, Todd M. Johnson, World Christian Trends AD 30-AD 2200, William Carey Library, 2001, p. 230, table 4-10] . A rough estimate by Raphael Moore in History of Asia Minor is that another 50 million died in wars by jihad. So counting the million African Christians killed in the 20th century we have:

60 million Christians

-

Hindus

Koenard Elst in Negationism in India gives an estimate of 80 million Hindus killed in the total jihad against India. [Koenard Elst, Negationism in India, Voice of India, New Delhi, 2002, pg. 34.] The country of India today is only half the size of ancient India, due to jihad. The mountains near India are called the Hindu Kush, meaning the “funeral pyre of the Hindus.”

80 million Hindus

-

Buddhists

Buddhists do not keep up with the history of war. Keep in mind that in jihad only Christians and Jews were allowed to survive as dhimmis (servants to Islam); everyone else had to convert or die. Jihad killed the Buddhists in Turkey, Afghanistan, along the Silk Route, and in India. The total is roughly 10 million. [David B. Barrett, Todd M. Johnson, World Christian Trends AD 30-AD 2200, William Carey Library, 2001, p. 230, table 4-1.]

10 million Buddhists

-

Jews

Oddly enough there were not enough Jews killed in jihad to significantly affect the totals of the Great Annihilation. The jihad in Arabia was 100 percent effective, but the numbers were in the thousands, not millions. After that, the Jews submitted and became the dhimmis (servants and second class citizens) of Islam and did not have geographic political power.

This gives a rough estimate of 270 million killed by jihad.
http://www.politicalislam.com/tears/pages/tears-of-jihad/

_____________

Islam has killed as many as 200 million Christians, Jews, Zoroastrians, Buddhists, and Hindus. (Nov. 2000)
http://www.sullivan-county.com/nf0/nov_2000/vic_chris.htm

_____________

Muslims massacred in 1146 over 100,000 Jews in Fez and in Marrakesh 120,000.
http://books.google.com/books?id=mYjc8HHWDxMC&pg=PA123
http://books.google.com/books?id=iKBwZ9Y8j8QC&pg=PA49

_____________

Negationism in India: concealing the record of Islam
Koenraad Elst – [Voice of India, 1992] 1992 – 176 pages [Page 27]
Every new invader made (often literally) his hills of Hindu skulls. Thus, the conquest of Afghanistan in the year 1000 was followed by … The Bahmani sultans (1347-1480) in central India made it a rule to kill 100000 Hindus every year. In 1399, Teimur killed 100,000 captives in a single day…
http://books.google.com/books?&id=mBEcAAAAIAAJ&q=Bahmani sultans

_____________

The Ikhwan waged a jihad against other Muslims in Arabia, including Sharif Hussein of Mecca, who established the Hashemite dynasty that ruled first in Arabia and then in Syria, Iraq and Transjordan. As many as 400,000 Arabs were killed or wounded in these campaigns.
http://www.jcpa.org/art/nypost-dg6apr03.htm

_____________
In the second half of the 19th century Moslems began to feel the force of the Western colonial threat. In the 1860 massacre in Damascus, Moslems slaughtered more than 10,000 Christians. In Aleppo, Christians were butchered as well.
http://www.jcpa.org/JCPA/Templates/ShowPage.asp?DRIT=3&DBID=1&LNGID=1&TMID=111&FID=624&PID=0&IID=741&TTL=The_Development_of_Arab_Anti-Semitism

_____________

Genocide: A Comprehensive Introduction – Page 150
 Adam Jones – [Taylor & Francis] 2010
[ISBN 041548619X, 9780415486194] 680 pages
A “Christian genocide” framing acknowledges the historic claims of the Assyrian and Greek peoples, and the movements now … In Thea Halo’s estimation, “Armenian deaths were estimated at 1.5 million. According to figures compiled by by the Greek government in collaboration with the Patrirachate…
http://books.google.com/books?id=BqdVudSuTRIC&pg=PA150

Congressional Record – Page 6450
 - (April 22, 1998)
In addition to those killed, an estimated 500000 Armenians were deported from the Ottoman Empire. … Mr. Speaker, today we remember the Armenian Genocide, and honor the memory of the 1.5 million Armenians who died between 1915 and 1923 …
http://books.google.com/books?id=956nQAD4DZAC&pg=PA6450

Encyclopedia of war crimes and genocide – Page 26
 Leslie Alan Horvitz, Christopher Catherwood – 2006 – 582 pages – Preview
Estimates of the total number of Armenians who died as a result of the massacres and deportations vary, ranging up to 1.5 million out of a prewar Armenian population estimated at 1.8 million. An Ottoman interior minister has …
 http://books.google.com/books?id=AHpFp2nsGyUC&pg=PA26

A lethal combination of labor brigades, internal deportations and massacres conducted throughout Anatolian Turkey resulted in the death of 1,400,000 Greeks.
The Annihilation of the Anatolian Greeks
…The Ottoman Empire, famed by its harems and janissaries, was founded at the start of the fourteenth century and at its zenith occupied Anatolia, the Middle East and much of south-eastern Europe to the Caucasus. By the end of the 15th century, the considerable Greek population of Asia Minor was under Ottoman rule…
http://www.greek-genocide.org/index1.html

—-

Despite massive photographic and documental evidence and substantial corroborative personal testimonies, the Turkish government has never acknowledged its genocide of approximately 2.75 million Christians from 1894 to 1923. The victims were predominantly Armenians but included many Greek and some Protestant believers as well.
http://www.ashevilletribune.com/asheville/terrorism/Middle East Crisis 13 RTF.htm

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1971 – Sheikh Mujib arrested and taken to West Pakistan. In exile, Awami League leaders proclaim the independence of the province of East Pakistan on 26th March. The new country is called Bangladesh. Just under 10 million Bangladeshis flee to India as troops from West Pakistan are defeated with Indian assistance. [...]
2000 December – Bangladesh expels Pakistani diplomat for comments on the 1971 war. The diplomat had put the number of dead at 26,000, whereas Bangladesh says nearly three million were killed. Bangladesh wants Pakistan to apologise for alleged genocide it says Pakistani forces were guilty of during the war.  
Sheikh Hasina’s Awami League was defeated in 2001
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/country_profiles/1160896.stm

_____________

 

Arafat and the PLO plunged Lebanon into massacres, rape, mutilation, rampages of looting and killings. Out of a population of 3.2 million, some 40,000 or more people had been killed, 100,000 wounded, 5,000 permanently maimed.
http://www.free-lebanon.com/LFPNews/hobeika_damour/hobeika_damour.html

Syria and the Palestinians have destroyed Lebanon. Syria and the Palestinians are responsible for the death of 300,000 Lebanese.
http://www.free-lebanon.com/Editorials/Reader_Mail/archives2/archives2.html

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Fear God and the Shadow of the Muslim Sword – Page 20 Pat MR Pat – [AuthorHouse,] 2008 – 208 pages

The Iran-Iraq War is a lesson in the brutality of the Muslim Sunni-Shiite conflict. The religious leaders of Iran rounded up more than 10000 Sunni children and walked them barefoot in the front lines of their armies in order to clear the mine fields. Saddam Hussein, a member of the minority Sunni sect that ruled Iraq, moved hundreds of thousands of Arab Shiite men and boys to the front lines with little or no arms, to face the onslaught of the Persian Shiite army of Iran. Estimates of casualties on both sides of the war place the figure above 2 million.
http://books.google.com/books?id=LTHa-xlVcZ4C&pg=PA20

The Iran-Iraq War
No one is sure of the total casualties during the Iran-Iraq war, but estimates range from 500,000 to 1 million dead, 1-2 million wounded, and more than 80,000 prisoners. There were approximately 2.5 million refugees, and whole cities were destroyed. The financial cost is estimated at a minimum of $200 billion.
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/arabs/iraniraq.html

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Indonesia: 700 churches attacked in past decade
  October 26, 2010
Some 700 Catholic and Protestant churches have been attacked in Indonesia over the past decade, according to the Indonesian Christian Communication Forum. Between October 12 and October 17, a Catholic parish was attacked, another was threatened with attack, and a Protestant church was burned down.
http://www.catholicculture.org/news/headlines/index.cfm?storyid=8057

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FRONTLINE/WORLD .  Sudan – The Quick and the Terrible . Facts and …Since the 1983 start of the civil war, more than 4 million people have been displaced, and an estimated 2 million have died.
http://www.pbs.org/frontlineworld/stories/sudan/facts.html

Fragile peace may unravel in Southern Sudan
By David McKenzie and Ingrid Formanek, CNN | December 8, 2009
…A rare sense of optimism enveloped Walgak and other southern parts of Sudan after a 2005 treaty ended a 21-year-long north-south civil war that killed 2 million people and forced about 4 million others from their homes.
http://articles.cnn.com/2009-12-08/world/sudan.birth_1_southern-sudan-ethnic-violence-world-food-programme?_s=PM:WORLD

Interview With George Clooney – CNN.com – Transcripts
Oct 14, 2010 … There was a war here that ended in 2005, with a peace agreement …. Well, 2.5 million people died in the last war between the north and south that ended in 2005. ….. CLOONEY: Take two minutes. It’s amazing the effect of one person’s voice. …. KING: George, we think of Darfur, we think of you. …
http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/1010/14/lkl.01.html

Insurgents kill two in Thai south October 31, 2009

Oct. 31, 2009
AFP
SUSPECTED Islamic insurgents shot and killed two people and wounded three others in a bomb blast in Thailand’s troubled Muslim-majority south, police said.
Gunmen broke into a house in Yala province and shot dead a 16-year-old Buddhist girl, also wounding her 29-year-old husband, they said….

More than 3900 people have died in shootings, bomb blasts, beheadings and crucifixions since a separatist insurgency erupted in Thailand’s southern provinces bordering Malaysia in January 2004.
http://news.smh.com.au/breaking-news-world/insurgents-kill-two-in-thai-south-20091031-hqpd.html

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Hannity – Monday, Sep 13, 2010 – mReplay Livedash TV Transcript:
Judith Miller: 00:29:05 >> With the small minority are the extremists.
Ilario Pantano 00:29:09 >> Islam minority has been responsible for 500,000 deaths since nine 11 — since 9/11.
00:29:17 Egypt, spain, bali to baghdad, radical islamists have been blowing themselves.
http://www.livedash.com/transcript/hannity/51/FNC/Monday_September_13_2010/297258/

The Election and the Muslim Controversy | FoxNews.com
Oct 25, 2010 … By Bill O’Reilly.
[...]
Listen to these stats: Since the attack on Sept. 11, 2001, more than 40,000 people have been killed by Muslim extremists worldwide, the result of more than 17,000 attacks. And we’re not even counting the American troops killed in Iraq and Afghanistan.

Forty thousand human beings dead because of Muslim terror activity.

In addition, since 9/11, the USA has spent more than $1 trillion combating Muslim terror threats, including the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. $1 trillion in less than 10 years. And you’re telling me there isn’t a Muslim problem in the world?

Many Americans also remember celebrations after the 9/11 attacks. To be fair, they were brief and mostly Palestinian-driven, but the images are indelible.

So there is no question that most Americans are a bit uneasy about the turbulence in the Muslim world. That may not be fair, but it’s reality.
http://www.foxnews.com/on-air/oreilly/transcript/election-and-muslim-controversy

Mansur: Ignoring Muslim-on-Muslim Violence Undercuts U.S. …
Jun 15, 2010 …Muslim-on-Muslim Genocide

Few Americans realize that the most victims of Islamism have been Muslims, Mansur argues. As an example, the Algerian civil war that began in 1992, killed more than 150,000 people in a fight pitting the nation’s military regime against Islamist radicals. In Darfur, estimates range from 200,000 to 500,000 dead and millions more driven from their homes.

In East Pakistan (now Bangladesh), an estimated 500,000 to 1 million people were slaughtered in 1971 by the rampaging Pakistani Army. Mansur refers to it as “one of the great genocides that Muslims committed against Muslims.”

In this case, “the Pakistani military was killing their own citizens, and none of these people, by the way, have been brought to [judgment.]” The perpetrators of these crimes are “still running around in the West,” Mansur said. “So you see the barbarity…the savagery, with which a Muslim state treats its own population.”

In Mansur’s view, The East Pakistan genocide bears disturbing similarities to today’s events in Darfur. “Half a million or more people have been killed in western Sudan, and there is not a peep about that,” Mansur said. “There’s a preoccupation, whenever the issue of violence or ethnic cleansing and war crimes…are talked about – the West is focused on the Arab-Israeli conflict.”

But groups like CAIR show little interest in discussing the mass murder of Muslims in Darfur, Pakistan or anywhere else. According to Mansur, when the topic is raised, Islamists typically assert that the figures have been “inflated” by “enemies of the Muslims” such as Hindus or Zionists.

“In all of these cases, there is not a whit of taking responsibility, ” Mansur said. Instead of using the Arab-Israeli conflict as a way to put pressure on Israel, the international community should take action to bring to justice “these criminals who were responsible for the genocide, whether it is in Darfur or Pakistan.”

“There is no statute of limitation…for crimes against humanity,” he noted.

Mansur said he sees some signs of positive change in Islamabad’s response to the recent wave of terrorist attacks by the Taliban. The reality of suicide bombings in Pakistan’s major cities is making it increasingly difficult for government officials and intellectuals to argue that terrorism results from India’s machinations or “blowback” from the Arab-Israeli conflict.

Pakistani elites are coming to the realization that their jihadist terror problem is homegrown. A growing number of voices are acknowledging “that we have to take responsibility, that [jihadism] is what we have nurtured and created,” Mansur said. “I see that as a hopeful sign. I think that if Pakistan is going to be saved from its own tendency to self-destruction, that these voices have to be reinforced and given support, which means the building of a civil society and the downgrading of the military side.”
http://www.investigativeproject.org/2008/mansur-ignoring-muslim-on-muslim-violence



The Myths of Islam
 

Muslims often complain of the popular "misconceptions" about their religion in the West. 

We took a hard look, however, and found that the most deeply held myths of Islam are the ones generated by Muslims and Western apologists.  The only glaring exception to this is the misconception that all Muslims are alike (they aren't, of course), but even Muslims fall into this as well, as evidenced by the various contrary factions insisting that they are the true Muslims, while those who disagree with them are either infidels, hijackers, or hypocrites.

Don't be fooled!  Hear the myths, but know the truth.

Islam Means ‘Peace’

The Myth: 

Lesser educated Muslims sometimes claim that the root word of Islam is “al-Salaam,” which is “peace” in Arabic.

The Truth:

An Arabic word only has one root.  The root word for Islam is “al-Silm,” which means “submission” or “surrender.”  There is no controversy about this among Islamic scholars. al-Silm (submission) does not mean the same thing as al-Salaam (peace), otherwise they would be the same word.   

Submission and peace can be very different concepts, even if a form of peace is often brought about through forcing others into submission.  As the modern-day Islamic scholar, Ibrahim Sulaiman, puts it, "Jihad is not inhumane, despite its necessary violence and bloodshed, its ultimate desire is peace which is protected and enhanced by the rule of law."

In truth, the Qur’an not only calls Muslims to submit to Allah, it also commands them to subdue people of other religions until they are in a full state of submission to Islamic rule.  This has inspired the aggressive history of Islam and its success in conquering other cultures.

 

Islam Respects Women as Equals

The Myth:  

The Qur’an places men and women on equal foundation before Allah.  Each person is judged according to his or her own deeds.  Women have equal rights under Islamic law. 

The Truth: 

Merely stating that individuals will be judged as such by Allah does not mean that they have equal rights and roles, or that they are judged by the same standards.

There is no ambiguity in the Qur’an, the life of Muhammad, or Islamic law as to the inferiority of women to men despite the efforts of modern-day apologists to salvage Western-style feminism from scraps and fragments of verses that have historically held no such progressive interpretation.

After military conquests, Muhammad would dole out captured women as war prizes to his men.  In at least one case, he advocated that they be raped in front of their husbands.  Captured women were made into sex slaves by the very men who killed their husbands and brothers.  There are four Qur’anic verses in which "Allah" makes clear that a Muslim master has full sexual access to his female slaves, yet there is not one that prohibits rape.

The Qur’an gives Muslim men permission to beat their wives for disobedience, but no where does it command love in marriage.  It plainly says that husbands are “a degree above” wives.  The Hadith says that women are intellectually inferior, and that they comprise the majority of Hell’s occupants.

Under Islamic law, a man may divorce his wife at his choosing.  If he does this twice, then wishes to remarry her, she must first have sex with another man.  Men are exempt from such degradations.

Muslim women are not free to marry whom they please, as are Muslim men.  Their husband may also bring other wives (and slaves) into the marriage bed.  And she must be be sexually available to him at any time (as a field ready to be “tilled,” according to the holy book of Islam).

Muslim women do not inherit property in equal portion to males.  Their testimony in court is considered to be worth only half that of a man’s.  Unlike a man, she must cover her head - and often her face.

If a woman wants to prove that she was raped, then there must be four male witnesses to corroborate her account.  Otherwise she can be jailed or stoned to death for confessing to “adultery.”

Given all of this, it is quite a stretch to say that men and women have “equality under Islam” based on obscure theological analogies or comparisons.  This is an entirely new ploy that is designed for modern tastes and disagrees sharply with the reality of Islamic law and history.

 

Jihad Means 'Inner Struggle'

 

The Myth:  

Islam’s Western apologists sometimes claim that since the Arabic word, Jihad, literally means “fight” or “struggle,” it refers to an “inner struggle” rather than holy war.

The Truth:  

In Arabic, "jihad" means struggle.  In Islam, it means holy war.

The Qur’an specifically exempts the disabled and elderly from Jihad (4:95), which would make no sense if the word is being used merely within the context of spiritual struggle.  It is also unclear why Muhammad would use graphic language, such as smiting fingers and heads from the hands and necks of unbelievers if he were speaking merely of character development.

With this in mind, Muslim apologists generally admit that there are two meanings to the word, but insist that “inner struggle” is the “greater Jihad,” whereas “holy war” is the “lesser.”  In fact, this misconception is based only on an a single hadith that is extremely weak and unreliable.

By contrast, the most reliable of all Hadith collections is that of Bukhari.  Jihad is mentioned over 200 times in reference to the words of Muhammad and each one carries a clear connotation to holy war, with only a handful of possible exceptions (dealing with a woman's supporting role during a time of holy war).

 

Islam is a Religion of Peace

The Myth:  

Muhammad was a peaceful man who taught his followers to be the same.  Muslims lived peacefully for centuries, fighting only in self-defense - and when it was necessary.  True Muslims would never act aggressively.

The Truth:

Muhammad organized 65 military campaigns in the last ten years of his life and personally led 27 of them.  The more power that he attained, the smaller the excuse needed to go to battle, until finally he began attacking tribes merely because they were not part of his growing empire.

After Muhammad’s death, his successor immediately went to war with former allied tribes which wanted to go their own way.  Abu Bakr called them 'apostates' and slaughtered anyone who did not want to remain Muslim.  Eventually, he was successful in holding the empire together with blood and violence.

The prophet of Islam's most faithful followers and even his own family soon turned on each other as well.  There were four caliphs (leaders) in the first twenty-five years, each of which was a trusted companion of his.  Three of these four were murdered.  The third caliph was murdered by those allied with the son of the first caliph.  The fourth caliph was murdered in the midst of a conflict with the fifth caliph, who began a 100-year dynasty of excess and debauchery that was brought to an end in a gruesome, widespread bloodbath by descendents of Muhammad’s uncle (who was not even a Muslim).

Muhammad’s own daughter, Fatima, and his son-in-law, Ali, who both survived the pagan hardship during the Meccan years safe and sound, did not survive Islam after the death of Muhammad.  Fatima died of stress from persecution within three months, and Ali was later assassinated by Muslim rivals.  Their son (Muhammad’s grandson) was killed in battle with the faction that became today’s Sunnis.  His people became Shias.  The relatives and personal friends of Muhammad were mixed into both warring groups, which then fractured further into hostile sub-divisions as Islam expanded.

Muslim apologists, who like to say that is impossible for today's terrorists to be Muslim when they kill fellow Muslims, would have a very tough time explaining the war between Fatima's followers and Aisha to a knowledgeable audience.  Muhammad explicitly held up both his favorite daughter and his favorite wife model Muslim women, yet they were invoked respectively by each side in the violent civil war that followed his death.  Which one was the prophet of God so horribly wrong about?

Muhammad left his men with instructions to take the battle against Christians, Persians, Jews and polytheists (which came to include millions of unfortunate Hindus).  For the next four centuries, Muslim armies steamrolled over unsuspecting neighbors, plundering them of loot and slaves, and forcing the survivors to either convert or pay tribute at the point of a sword.

Companions of Muhammad lived to see Islam declare war on every major religion in the world in just the first few decades following his death - pressing the Jihad against Hindus, Christians, Jews, Zoroastrians, and Buddhists.

By the time of the Crusades (when the Europeans began fighting back), Muslims had conquered two-thirds of the Christian world by sword, from Syria to Spain, and across North Africa.  Millions of Christians were enslaved by Muslims, and tens of millions of Africans.  The Arab slave-trading routes would stay open for 1300 years until pressure from Christian-based countries forced Islamic nations to declare the practice illegal (in theory).  To this day, the Muslim world has never apologized for the victims of Jihad and slavery.

There is not another religion in the world that consistently produces terrorism in the name of God as does Islam.  The most dangerous Muslims are nearly always those who interpret the Qur’an most transparently.  They are the fundamentalists or purists of the faith, and believe in Muhammad’s mandate to spread Islamic rule by the sword, putting to death those who will not submit.  In the absence of true infidels, they will even turn on each other.

The holy texts of Islam are saturated with verses of violence and hatred toward those outside the faith, as well as the "hypocrites" (Muslims who don't act like Muslims).  In sharp contrast to the Bible, which generally moves from relatively violent episodes to far more peaceful mandates, the Qur’an travels the exact opposite path (violence is first forbidden, then permitted, then mandatory).  The handful of earlier verses that speak of tolerance are overwhelmed by an avalanche of later ones that carry a much different message.  While Old Testament verses of blood and guts are generally bound by historical context within the text itself, Qur'anic imperatives to violence usually appear open-ended and subject to personal interpretation. 

From the history of the faith to its most sacred writings, those who want to believe in "peaceful Islam" have a lot more to ignore than do the terrorists.  By any objective measure, the "Religion of Peace" has been the harshest, bloodiest religion the world has ever known.  In Islam there is no peace unless Muslims have power - and even then...

 

Islam is Tolerant of Other Religions

The Myth:  

Religious minorities have flourished under Islam.  Muslims are commanded to protect Jews and Christians (the People of the Book) and do them no harm. The Qur'an says in Sura 109, "To you, your religion.  To me, mine."

The Truth:

Religious minorities have not “flourished” under Islam.  In fact, they have dwindled to mere shadows after centuries of persecution and discrimination.  Some were converted from their native religion by brute force, others under the agonizing strain of dhimmitude.

What Muslims call “tolerance,” others correctly identify as institutionalized discrimination.  The consignment of Jews and Christians to dhimmis under Islamic rule means that they are not allowed the same religious rights and freedoms as Muslims.  They cannot share their faith, for example, or build houses of worship without permission. 

Historically, dhimmis have often had to wear distinguishing clothing or cut their hair in a particular manner that indicates their position of inferiority and humiliation.  They do not share the same legal rights as Muslims, and must even pay a poll tax (the jizya).  They are to be killed or have their children taken from them if they cannot satisfy the tax collector’s requirements.

For hundreds of years, the Christian population in occupied Europe had their sons taken away and forcibly converted into Muslim warriors (known as Jannisaries) by the Ottoman Turks.

It is under this burden of discrimination and third-class status that so many religious minorities converted to Islam over the centuries.  Those who didn’t often faced economic and social hardships that persist to this day and are appalling by Western standards of true religious tolerance and pluralism.

For those who are not “the People of the Book,” such as Hindus and atheists, there is very little tolerance to be found once Islam establishes political superiority.  The Qur’an tells Muslims to “fight in the way of Allah” until “religion is only for Allah.”  The conquered populations face death if they do not establish regular prayer and charity in the Islamic tradition (ie. the pillars of Islam).

Tamerlane and other Muslim warriors slaughtered tens of millions of Hindus and Buddhists, and displaced or forcibly converted millions more over the last thousand years.  Islamists in Somalia behead Christians.  In Iran, they are jailed.

One of the great ironies of Islam is that non-Muslims are to be treated according to the very standards by which Muslims themselves would claim the right to violent self-defense were the shoe on the other foot.  Islam is its own justification.  Most Muslims therefore feel no need to explain the ingrained arrogance and double standard.

At best, the "religion of peace" has a dual personality toward other religions.  In some places they are explicitly cursed by Allah, in others there appears to be a measure of tolerance shown.  There are about 500 verses in the Qur’an that speak of Allah’s hatred for non-Muslims and the punishment that he has prepared for their unbelief.  There is also a tiny handful that say otherwise, but these are mostly earlier verses that many scholars consider to be abrogated by the later, more violent ones.

As for Sura 109, any true Qur'an scholar will point out that the purpose of the verse was to distinguish Islam from the gods of the Quraysh (of which one was named "Allah") rather than to advocate religious tolerance for non-Muslims.  At the time that he narrated this very early verse, Muhammad did not have any power, and thus no choice but to be "tolerant" of others.  By contrast, there was no true tolerance shown when he returned to Mecca with power many years later and demanded that anyone who would not convert to Islam be evicted from the city or put to the sword (see Sura 9).  In fact, he physically destroyed the cherished idols of the people to whom he had previously addressed in Sura 109.

If tolerance simply means discouraging the mass slaughter of those of a different faith, then today's Islam generally meets this standard more often than not.  But, if tolerance means allowing people of other faiths the same religious liberties that Muslims enjoy, then Islam is fundamentally the most intolerant religion under the sun.

 

Islam and the “Golden Age” of Scientific Discovery

The Myth:

Muslims often claim that their religion fostered a rich heritage of scientific discovery, “paving the way” for modern advances in technology and medicine.  On this topic, they usually refer to the period between the 7th and 13th centuries, when Europe was experiencing its “Dark Ages” and the Muslim world was acquiring new populations and culture through violent conquest.

The Truth: 

Although there is no arguing that the Muslim world was relatively more advanced during this period than the “Christian” world, the reasons for this have absolutely nothing to do with the Islamic religion (other than its mandate for military expansion).  In fact, the religion tends to discourages knowledge outside of itself, which is why the most prolific Muslim scholars have always tended to be students of religion rather than science.

There are four basic reasons why Islam has little true claim to scientific achievement:

First, the Muslim world benefited greatly from the Greek sciences, which were translated for them by Christians and Jews.  To their credit, Muslims did a better job of preserving Greek text than did the Europeans of the time and this became the foundation for their own knowledge.  (One large reason for this, however, was that access by Christians to this part of their world was cut off by Muslim slave ships and coastal raids that dominated the Mediterranean during this period).

Secondly, many of the scientific advances credited to Islam were actually “borrowed” from other cultures conquered by the Muslims.  The algebraic concept of “zero”, for example, is erroneously attributed to Islam when, in fact, it was a Hindu discovery that was merely introduced to the West by Muslims. 

In truth, conquered populations contributed greatly to the history of “Muslim science” until gradually being decimated by conversion to Islam (under the pressures of dhimmitude).  The Muslim concentration within a population is directly proportional to the decline of scientific achievement.  It is no accident that the Muslim world has had little to show for itself in the last 800 years or so, since running out of new civilizations to cannibalize.

Third, even accomplished Muslim scientists and cultural icons were often considered heretics in their day, sometimes with good reason.  One of the greatest achievers to come out of the Muslim world was the Persian scientist and philosopher, al-Razi.  His impressive works are often held up today as “proof” of Muslim accomplishment.  But what the apologists often leave out is that al-Razi was denounced as a blasphemer, since he followed his own religious beliefs – which were in obvious contradiction to traditional Islam.

Fourth, even the contributions that are attributed to Islam (often inaccurately) are not terribly dramatic.  There is the invention of certain words, such as alchemy and elixir (and assassin, by the way), but not much else that survives in modern technology which is of practical significance.  Neither is there any reason to believe that such discoveries would not have easily been made by the West following the cultural awakening triggered by the Reformation.

As an example, consider that Muslims claim credit for coffee, since the beans were discovered in Africa (at the time, an important venue for Islamic slave trading) and first processed in the Middle East.  While this is true, it is also true that the red dye used in many food products, from cranberry juice to candy, comes from the abdomen of a particular female beetle found in South America.  It is extremely unlikely that the West would not have stumbled across coffee by now (although, to be fair, coffee probably expedited subsequent discoveries).

In fact, the litany of “Muslim” achievement often takes the form of rhapsody, in which the true origins of these discoveries are omitted - along with their comparative significance to Western achievement.  One often doesn't hear about the dismal fate of original accomplishments either.  Those who brag about the great observatory of Taqi al-Din in [freshly conquered] Istanbul, for example, often neglect to mention that it was quickly destroyed by the caliphate.

At the end of the day, the record of scientific, medical and technological accomplishment is not something over which Muslim apologists want to get into a contest with the Christian world.  Today’s Islamic innovators are primarily known for turning Western technology, such as cell phones and airplanes, into instruments of mass murder.

To sum up, although the Islamic religion is not entirely hostile to science, neither should it be confused as a facilitator.  The great achievements that are said to have come out of the Islamic world were made either by non-Muslims who happened to be under Islamic rule, or by heretics who usually had little interest in Islam.  Scientific discovery tapers off dramatically as Islam asserts dominance, until it eventually peters out altogether. 

 

Islam is Opposed to Slavery

The Myth:

Islam is intolerant of enslaving human beings.  The religion eradicated the institution of slavery thanks to the principles set in motion by Muhammad, who was an abolitionist.

The Truth:

There is not the least bit of intolerance for slavery anywhere in the Qur’an.  In fact, the “holy” book of Islam explicitly gives slave-owners the freedom to sexually exploit their slaves – not just in one place, but in at least four separate Suras.  Islamic law is littered with rules concerning the treatment of slaves, some of which are relatively humane, but none that prohibit the actual practice by any stretch.

The very presence of these rules condones and legitimizes the institution of slavery.  Adding to this is the fact that Muhammad was an avid slave trader.  After providing ample evidence of his activities according to the most reliable Muslim biographers, the Center of the Study of Political Islam summarizes its findings as such:

Muhammad captured slaves, sold slaves, bought slaves as gifts of pleasure, received slaves as gifts, and used slaves for work.  The Sira is exquisitely clear on the issue of slavery.

Even the very pulpit from which Muhammad preached Islam was built by slave labor on his command!

As such, this deeply dehumanizing horror has been a ubiquitous tradition of Islam since the days of Muhammad to the current plight of non-Muslims in the Sudan, Mali, Niger and Mauritania, as well as other parts of the Muslim world.

There has never been an abolitionary movement within Islam (just as the religion produces no organized resistance to present-day enslavement).  The abolition of slavery was imposed on the Islamic world by European countries, along with other political pressures that were entirely unrelated to Islamic law.

Although horrible abuses of slaves in the Muslim world were recorded, there has been little inclination toward the documentation and earnest contrition that one finds in the West.  The absence of a guilty Muslim conscience often leads to the mistaken impression that slavery was not as bad under Islam - when it is actually indicative of the explicit tolerance the religion has for the practice

So narcissistic is the effect of Islam on the devoted, that to this day many Muslims believe in their hearts that the women and children carried off in battle, along with their surviving men folk, were actually done a favor by the Muslim warriors who plucked them from their fields and homes and relegated them to lives of demeaning servitude. 

Shame and apology, no matter how appropriate, are almost never to be found in Dar al-Islam.  Caliphs, the religious equivalent of popes, maintained harems of hundreds, sometimes thousands of young girls and women captured from lands as far away as Europe and consigned to sexual slavery.  Hungarians were hunted like animals by the Turks, who carried 3 million into slavery over a 150 year period in the 1500-1600's.  In India, 200,000 Hindus were captured and transported to Iranian slave markets in just a two year span (1619-1620) by one of the kinder Muslim rulers.

African slaves were often castrated by their Muslim masters.  Few survived to reproduce, which is why there are not many people of African descent living in the Middle East, even though more slaves were taken out of Africa in the 1300 years of Arab slave trading than in the 300 years of European slavery.  The 400,000 slaves brought to America, for example, have now become a community of 30 million, with a much higher standard of living than their African peers.

There is no William Wilberforce or Bartoleme de las Casas in Islamic history as there is in Christianity.  When asked to produce the name of a Muslim abolitionist, apologists sometimes meekly suggest Muhammad himself.  But, if a slave owner and trader, who commanded the capture and sexual exploitation of slaves, and left a 13-century legacy of divinely-sanctioned slavery, is the best that Islam can offer in the way of an abolitionist, then no amount of sophistry will be enough to convince any but the most ignorant.

 

Islam is Completely Incompatible with Terrorism

The Myth:

Islam is completely incompatible with acts of terrorism.  It is against Islam to kill innocent people.

The Truth: 

Islam does prohibit killing innocent people.  Unfortunately, you don't qualify.

Even though many Muslims earnestly believe that their religion prohibits the killing of innocent people by acts of terrorism, the truth is certainly more complicated.  This is why the Jihadis and their detractors are both able to point fingers at the other, while confidently insisting that they, themselve, are the true Muslims.  It is also why organizations that commit horrible atrocities in the name of Allah, such as Hamas and Hezbollah, receive moral and financial support from mainstream Muslims and Islamic charities.

In fact, the definition of "terrorism" in Islam is ambiguous at best. And the definition of an “innocent person” in Islam isn't something that Muslim apologists advertise when they say that such persons aren't to be harmed.  The reason for this is that anyone who rejects Muhammad is not considered to be innocent under Islamic law. 

Consider that a great deal of the Qur'an is devoted to describing the horrible punishment that awaits those who refuse to become Muslim.  How can Muslims say that the subjects of such divine wrath are innocent persons?

The most protected and respected of all non-Muslims are the dhimma, the “people of the book.”  These would specifically be Jews and Christians who agree to Islamic rule and pay the jizya (tribute to Muslims).  Yet, the word “dhimmi” comes from the Arabic root meaning “guilt” or "blame."  ["...the dhimmi parent and sister words mean both 'to blame' as well as safeguards that can be extended to protect the blameworthy" Amitav Ghosh, "In an Antique Land"].

So, if even the dhimma have a measure of guilt attached to their status (by virtue of having rejected Allah’s full truth), how can non-Muslims who oppose Islamic rule or refuse to pay the jizya be considered “innocent?”

Even within the Islamic community there is a category of Muslims who are also said to bear guilt – greater even than the average non-believer.  These are the hypocrites, or “Munafiqin,” whom Muhammad referred to in the most derogatory terms.  A hypocrite is considered to be a Muslim in name only.  They are distinguished either by an unwillingness to wage holy war or by an intention to corrupt the community of believers (by befriending Christians or Jews, for example).

When Muslims frequently kill Muslims in the name of Allah, they usually do so believing that their victims are Munafiqin or kafir (unbelievers).  This is actually a part of Islamic Law known as takfir, in which Muslims are declared apostates and then executed.  (A true Muslim would go to paradise anyway, in which case he or she could hardly be expected to nurse a grudge amidst the orgy of sex and wine).

In addition to the murky definition of innocence, there is also the problem of distinguishing terrorism from holy war.  Islamic terrorists rarely refer to themselves as terrorists, but usually as holy warriors (Mujahideen, Shahid, or Fedayeen).  They consider their acts to be a form of Jihad.

Holy war is something that Muhammad commanded in the Qur’an and Hadith.  In Sura 9:29, he establishes the principle that unbelievers should be fought until they either convert to Islam or accept a state of humiliation under Islamic subjugation.  This is confirmed in the Hadith by both Sahih Muslim and Bukhari.

In many places, the prophet of Islam says that Jihad is the ideal path for a Muslim, and that believers should “fight in the way of Allah.”  There are dozens of open-ended passages in the Qur’an that exhort killing and fighting – far more than there are of peace and tolerance.  It is somewhat naïve to think that their inclusion in this "eternal discourse between God and Man" was of historical value only and not intended to be relevant to present-day believers, particularly when there is little to nothing within the text to distinguishe them in such fashion.

Combine the Qur’anic exhortation to holy war with the ambiguity of innocence and a monumental problem develops that cannot be patched over by mere semantics.  Not only is there a deep tolerance for violence in Islam, but also a sharp disagreement and lack of clarity over the conditions that justify this violence... and just whom the targets may be.

Even many Muslims who claim to be against terrorism still support the “insurgency” in Iraq, for example, and often entertain the allegation that there is a broader “war against Islam.”  Although American troops in Iraq are trying to protect innocent life and help the country rebuild, Muslims around the world and in the West believe that it is legitimate for Sunnis and Shias to try and kill them.

Enjoying the sanction of holy war, the Mujahid reasons that it is permissible to attack fellow Iraqis – the ones helping the Americans… even if they are part of a democratically-elected Iraqi government.  These non-combatants and combatants alike are believed to be the “Munafiqin” or "Takfir" assisting the enemy “Crusaders.”

Although we use Iraq as an example here, this is the same rationale that is ultimately behind all Islamic terror, from the Philippines to Thailand.  Wherever the religion of Islam is a minority, there are always radicals who believe that violence is justified in bringing it to dominance - just as Muhammad taught by example in places like Mecca and the land of al-Harith.

And what of the so-called “innocents” who suffer from the bombings and shootings?  Even in Muhammad’s time they were unavoidable.  The much-touted hadith in which Muhammad forbade the killing of women, for example, also indicates that there were such casualties in his conflicts.

If there is any doubt that he believed that the forbidden is sometimes necessary, it should be put to rest by an incident in which Muhammad's men warned him that a planned night raid against an enemy camp would mean that women and children would be killed.  He merely replied “they are of them,” meaning the men.

This is the slippery slope that is opened by the sanction of holy war.  What starts out as the perception of a noble cause of self-defense against a supposed threat gradually devolves into a "let Allah sort them out" campaign through a series of logical steps that are ultimately justified by the sublime goal of Islamic rule.

Islam is not intended to co-exist as an equal with other religions.  It is to be the dominant religion with Sharia as the supreme law.  Islamic rule is to be extended to the ends of the earth and resistance is to be dealt with by any means necessary. 

Apologists in the West often shrug off the Qur'an's many verses of violence by saying that they are relevant only in a “time of war.”

To this, Islamic terrorists would agree.  They are at war.

 

Islam is a Democracy

The Myth:

Islam is compatible with democratic principles.  The religion itself is a democracy.

The Truth:

A democracy is a system in which all people are judged as equals before the law, regardless of race, religion or gender.  The vote of every individual counts as much as the vote of any other.  The collective will of the people then determines the rules of society.

Under Islamic law, only Muslim males are entitled to full rights.  The standing of a woman is often half that of a man's - sometimes even less.  Non-Muslims have no standing with a Muslim.  In fact, a Muslim can never be put to death for killing an unbeliever.

The Islamic state is guided by Islamic law, derived from the Qur'an and Sunnah.  A body of clerics interprets the law and applies it to all circumstances social, cultural and political.  The people are never to be placed above the Qur'an and Sunnah any more than man should be above Allah.

It is somewhat debatable as to whether there are any states in the Muslim world that qualify as actual democracies.  There is no denying, however, that the tiny handful that are often held up as democratic nations are ones in which deep tension exists between the government and religious leaders, as the latter often complain that democracy is an idolatrous system imposed on them.

Islam does not facilitate democracy.

 

The Qur'an is the Muslim Counterpart to the Bible

The Myth:

The Qur'an is to Muslims what the Bible is to Christians (and the Torah to Jews).

The Truth:

The Qur'an only contains what is presented as the literal words of Allah - as relayed by Muhammad.  It can be compared to a manufactured text that includes only the words of Jesus (the so-called "red-letter" verses) extracted from their New Testament historical context and then randomly mixed together (the chapters of the Qur'an are arranged by size and themes are rarely consistent even within each chapter).

By contrast, the Bible contains history and biographical detail.  For example, there is nothing in the Qur'an that details Muhammad's life, whereas the Bible contains four books that present all that is known about the biography of Jesus.  Another distinction is that when the Bible commands violence - as it does in a handful of Old Testament verses - the intended target is explicitly defined within the passage, leaving little doubt that it is a recounting of history and not an open-ended command for anyone else to do the same.

Despite the rhapsody with which Muslims sing the Qur'an's praises, there is an obvious reason why only a minority have actually bothered to delve deeper than an occasional sporadic perusal through its pages.  The random arrangement of verses and near absence of context makes it difficult to understand.  For this reason the Qur'an is rarely printed without the incorporation of voluminous commentary (that usually expresses the personal preferences of the translator).

In fact, the Muslim counterpart to the Bible is the Qur'an, Hadith and Sira combined.

The Hadith is a collection of anecdotes and historical snippets of Muhammad's life based on the relayed narrations of those who lived with him. Unfortunately, authenticity varies.  But the most dependable compilers are agreed by Muslims scholars to be Bukhari and Sahih Muslim, followed by Abu Dawud. It is on the Hadith that Islamic law (Sharia) is based.

The Sira is the biography of Muhammad's life. Again, there are reliability issues which would appear somewhat bewildering to Christians, given that the gospels were well in place within the first few centuries following the crucifixion - which preceded Muslim history by over 600 years.  Still, the most reliable biography of Muhammad was compiled by Ibn Ishaq, who wrote about 150 years after his death.  His original work survives only in what was "edited" by a later translator (Ibn Hisham, who admitted that he filtered out several accounts that were of a distasteful nature).

A failure to recognize that the Bible is only comparable to the Qur'an, Hadith and Sira together often leads to faulty accusation and misplaced analysis.



sorry for the double post :(



freedquaker said:
FaRmLaNd said:
freedquaker said:

 

=> Why do muslims hate homosexuals so much?

Muslims (or Christians or Jews for that matter) do not hate homoesexuals, they just do not approve of their lifestyles. Islam, among three, is actually the most tolerant one, with little disregard to the individuals but completely against that the idea that homosexuality is normal. It accepts homosexual individuals as long as they stay celibate and do not claim to be normal. Islam forbids all sorts of discrimination against homosexuals although distorting the family values by modern homosexual rights such as gay marriage are deemed detrimental to the society thus banned and often penalized. You may disagree but cannot claim against.

Homosexuality is normal. Its present in other creatures within the animal kindom such as Bonobos. It occurs in all human civilisations.

I would not call it tolerant to demand celibacy for an entire demographic of the population. It is discrimantory.

How does a gay couple distort normal family values? Hetrosexual couples will still get married and have kids and have traditional families, having a gay couple next door wont stop that.

This is your perspective conditioned by the today's media. Homosexuality, which involves two individuals engaging in sexual activity in a non-procreative way is in no way normal. The two genders are created for each other, not the other way around. Only a fraction of homosexuality today can scientifically be attributed to genetical heritage (I have a paper on this issue, which could not be refuted), and even then it does not mean it is normal, natural or justified. The portion that is naturally claimed by genetic disposition is around 2% (way below 5% of the probable fenotype), is no more than other disfunctions exhibited in the animal kingdom observed, which doesn't make it normal. When you are born with two 6 fingers or one kidney, it's still an anomaly. Besides, the genetic occurence of homosexuality is not due to a direct effect, otherwise, the homosexuals, who cannot procreate would have been extinct long ago. It's an anomaly that happens somewhat randomly. In other words, two complete straightforward parents with complete straight forward ancestry can still have homosexual kids at birth. Therefore this is not a direct genetic heritage, ruling out the norm. On top of that, around 60% of the homosexuals were not homosexuals at birth, but became one due to environmental influence.

It's not discrimatory, and modern world's understanding is distorted. By your logic, it's discrimatory to ban people from besitality, or from sex with minors. In besitality case, you don't know if the animal concedes or not, and in sex minors case, you do not care about his/her consent. Gay marriage distorts family values because children are supposed to grow up in a family with a mother and a father, not two fathers or mothers, which is totally unnatural.

Firstly. Theres no evidence that we were created, all evidence points towards evolution via natural selection.

Secondly. My observation was that homosexuality exists in the animal kingdom, read Bonobos as a prominant example. If homosexuality exists, then its normal in the sense that it occurs again and again. This is supported by the fact that it also occurs in all human socities. And since I can't see anything negative about a person thats attracted to the opposite sex having sex with someone who has similar sexual desires why would I want to put a stop to it?

Thirdly. If only a fraction of genetic homosexuality exists then that still means that homosexuality can occur naturally, even if it is a random mutation or comes as a bi-product of something else. And if homosexuality can occur via external influences aswell look at where it originates (read the traditional family!). Which means that traditional families can give rise to homosexuality! I really don't care enough about an adults sexual desires aslong as its consented to by the other party involved and they're adults.

Fourthly: Don't change the goalposts. Bestaility and sex between and with minors are completely different subjects that would demand their own topics.

I am pro gay rights because I have known many gay people in my time who were very commited and in love with each other. I wouldn't dream of attempting to stop them being in a relationship, firstly because its none of my business what they do in the bedroom and secondly because I support the separation of church and state. I honestly don't care that much about peoples sex lives to want to put a stop to them having consentual sex if they so please.