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Forums - General Discussion - Angela Merkel = Hitler II?

dib8rman on 18 October 2010
UncleScrooge said:

I just read Merkel's speech in german and these are the exact words she was using:

"(Immigration bedeutet) nicht nebeneinander, sondern miteinander leben auf dem gemeinsamen Fundament der Werteordnung unseres Grundgesetzes und unserer deutschen Leitkultur, die von den christlich-jüdischen Wurzeln und von Christentum, Humanismus und Aufklärung geprägt ist".

 

Translation:

"Immigration doesn't mean living next to each other but together on the shared basis of our constitution and our german dominant culture, which is affected by christian-jewish roots and christianity, humanism and enlightenment".

 

And she said "those who don't accept chrstianity" which means as much as "those who don't respect it".

In german "to accept" can not be used to say "to adopt". It just means "to approve". I'm not sure if there's a difference to the english verb.


Yea in English "accept" can be taken as how you stated it, where it means to approve or it can be taken as adoption.

However the prior makes much more sense than the latter imo yet the two are easily crossed.



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rocketpig on 18 October 2010
DirtyP2002 said:
rocketpig said:
DirtyP2002 said:

without reading the whole thread:

This is not about becoming Christians. It is about Christian / western values.You have to see women as equals and accept they have the same rights like you do. That is something muslims have their problems with.

Of course this also counts for gay people or any other minority.

So what Merkel actually says is against discrmination and for an equal society. Now think again if this might be the standard the Nazis tried to achieve.

Reading comprehension FTW!

At best, Merkel's wording was naive and rather poorly thought out. At worst, her wording was pejorative and demeaning to Islam.

She's not going to win any votes within the Muslim population by telling them they should become more Christian. If she wants to change the culture, explain the necessary changes in an entirely secular fashion. Don't start comparing the religions head to head. That's just stupid and I'd expect better from the leader of a western power.


I blame translation.

really if you are in Germany and hear what she actually said in German, it makes sense without disrespecting anybody.

I say: Well said

I was wondering about that. If the German translation is different and doesn't imply that Christian values (what ARE Christian values, anyway?) should be pushed upon Muslims, I retract my statement.




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sapphi_snake on 18 October 2010
rocketpig said:


That's just it; if Merkel wanted to highlight the cultural differences and try to integrate Muslims into Germany, she should have used WESTERN VALUES, not Christian values. She's presenting this argument as if Christianity is superior to Islam.

That is some pretty scary speech from a western world power. Still, it's a fallacy to compare her to Hitler and I think that's a bad road to go down because it dilutes your argument.

Sorry, you are absolutely right. It was a big mistake on my behalf. In my desire to use a flashy title that would grab people's attention I went a little bit overboard. Now I feel as slutty as most of the media.

I hope that people will overlook my poor choice of a title and seriously debate what she actually said (which is something outrageous, especially coming from a leader of an European nation).



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UncleScrooge on 18 October 2010
rocketpig said:
DirtyP2002 said:
rocketpig said:
DirtyP2002 said:

without reading the whole thread:

This is not about becoming Christians. It is about Christian / western values.You have to see women as equals and accept they have the same rights like you do. That is something muslims have their problems with.

Of course this also counts for gay people or any other minority.

So what Merkel actually says is against discrmination and for an equal society. Now think again if this might be the standard the Nazis tried to achieve.

Reading comprehension FTW!

At best, Merkel's wording was naive and rather poorly thought out. At worst, her wording was pejorative and demeaning to Islam.

She's not going to win any votes within the Muslim population by telling them they should become more Christian. If she wants to change the culture, explain the necessary changes in an entirely secular fashion. Don't start comparing the religions head to head. That's just stupid and I'd expect better from the leader of a western power.


I blame translation.

really if you are in Germany and hear what she actually said in German, it makes sense without disrespecting anybody.

I say: Well said

I was wondering about that. If the German translation is different and doesn't imply that Christian values (what ARE Christian values, anyway?) should be pushed upon Muslims, I retract my statement.

Yeah I just realized it. You can't "accept a present" in german. "To accept" has more of a... negative meaning in the german language. You only "accept" something if you either don't like it or are neutral about it. It can never mean "to adopt".



sapphi_snake on 18 October 2010
UncleScrooge said:

I just read Merkel's speech in german and these are the exact words she was using:

"(Immigration bedeutet) nicht nebeneinander, sondern miteinander leben auf dem gemeinsamen Fundament der Werteordnung unseres Grundgesetzes und unserer deutschen Leitkultur, die von den christlich-jüdischen Wurzeln und von Christentum, Humanismus und Aufklärung geprägt ist".

 

Translation:

"Immigration doesn't mean living next to each other but together on the shared basis of our constitution and our german dominant culture, which is affected by christian-jewish roots and christianity, humanism and enlightenment".

 

And she said "those who don't accept chrstianity" which means as much as "those who don't respect it".

In german "to accept" can not be used to say "to adopt". It just means "to approve". I'm not sure if there's a difference to the english verb.

This is more resonable than what was mentioned in the "official" english translation presented in the media.



"I don't understand how someone could like Tolstoy and Dostoyevsky, but not like Twilight!!!"

"Last book I read was Brokeback Mountain, I just don't have the patience for them unless it's softcore porn."

                                                                               (The Voice of a Generation and Seece)

"If you cant stand the sound of your own voice than dont become a singer !!!!!"

                                                                               (pizzahut451)

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sapphi_snake on 18 October 2010
Barozi said:

Or even better you simply accept that people don't need to agree with your opinion.

 

This thread is a pretty good example why religion sucks btw.
Debating over a hilariously unimportant topic *Oh noez I'm butthurt because she used the word Christian etc.*

People just have too much time...

ATHEISM FTW !!!!!!!!

You can have whatever opinion you want, but Western morality developed in a certain way, and that's a fact.



"I don't understand how someone could like Tolstoy and Dostoyevsky, but not like Twilight!!!"

"Last book I read was Brokeback Mountain, I just don't have the patience for them unless it's softcore porn."

                                                                               (The Voice of a Generation and Seece)

"If you cant stand the sound of your own voice than dont become a singer !!!!!"

                                                                               (pizzahut451)

UncleScrooge on 18 October 2010
sapphi_snake said:
UncleScrooge said:

I just read Merkel's speech in german and these are the exact words she was using:

"(Immigration bedeutet) nicht nebeneinander, sondern miteinander leben auf dem gemeinsamen Fundament der Werteordnung unseres Grundgesetzes und unserer deutschen Leitkultur, die von den christlich-jüdischen Wurzeln und von Christentum, Humanismus und Aufklärung geprägt ist".

 

Translation:

"Immigration doesn't mean living next to each other but together on the shared basis of our constitution and our german dominant culture, which is affected by christian-jewish roots and christianity, humanism and enlightenment".

 

And she said "those who don't accept chrstianity" which means as much as "those who don't respect it".

In german "to accept" can not be used to say "to adopt". It just means "to approve". I'm not sure if there's a difference to the english verb.

This is more resonable than what was mentioned in the "official" english translation presented in the media.

Yeah I just went off to get some food and realized one can "accept a present". You couldn't say that in german because it could imply that you don't like the present.

And I was wondering why you guys went crazy over this

We probably sounded like a bunch of crusaders trying to bring chrstianity into the world, didn't we? Even though most of the germans who posted are agnostics or atheists.



Khuutra on 18 October 2010
UncleScrooge said:
rocketpig said:

I was wondering about that. If the German translation is different and doesn't imply that Christian values (what ARE Christian values, anyway?) should be pushed upon Muslims, I retract my statement.

Yeah I just realized it. You can't "accept a present" in german. "To accept" has more of a... negative meaning in the german language. You only "accept" something if you either don't like it or are neutral about it. It can never mean "to adopt".

So a better English equivalent might be "tolerate"?



sapphi_snake on 18 October 2010
UncleScrooge said:

Yeah I just went off to get some food and realized one can "accept a present". You couldn't say that in german because it could imply that you don't like the present.

And I was was wondering why you guys went crazy over this

We probably sounded like a bunch of crusaders trying to bring chrstianity into the world, didn't we? Even though most of the germans who posted are agnostics or atheists.

Yeah, much ado about nothing...



"I don't understand how someone could like Tolstoy and Dostoyevsky, but not like Twilight!!!"

"Last book I read was Brokeback Mountain, I just don't have the patience for them unless it's softcore porn."

                                                                               (The Voice of a Generation and Seece)

"If you cant stand the sound of your own voice than dont become a singer !!!!!"

                                                                               (pizzahut451)

UncleScrooge on 18 October 2010
Khuutra said:
UncleScrooge said:
rocketpig said:

I was wondering about that. If the German translation is different and doesn't imply that Christian values (what ARE Christian values, anyway?) should be pushed upon Muslims, I retract my statement.

Yeah I just realized it. You can't "accept a present" in german. "To accept" has more of a... negative meaning in the german language. You only "accept" something if you either don't like it or are neutral about it. It can never mean "to adopt".

So a better English equivalent might be "tolerate"?


Yeah, that would be a more adequate translation in this particular case.