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Forums - General Discussion - Is athiesm a belief? What is "God?"

raptors11 said:

Well that's kind of the problem I have with atheism. Its just theories and whenever new evidence is discovered all the theories change. 10 years from now they will probably look back on 2010 and say how stupid we were for believing those things.

The difference with religion is we have already fully developed our beliefs and stick with it. You guys change your beliefs every couple years.

And you're using that as a a code of logic? Start off with an answer and never change it regardless of how much evidence is thrown against it? I don't believe for one second that someone could live like that. Sorry.

Scientific works, updating theories based on observations works. The laws of nature never change, only our understanding of them, and that understanding will only ever increase.

But for risk of repeating myself I'll just point you to my reply to Joecool7 earlier, where I explained things a little more in depth.



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pizzahut451 said:
highwaystar101 said:
pizzahut451 said:


there is no phisical evidence of a human thought either...just sayin

We can locate areas of brain activity by using magnetic resonance imaging. certain areas become active when people have certain thoughts. An example of this can give is the way we can communicate with people in a vegetative state. We can tell a person to think of playing tennis or navigate their house. We can detect their thoughts and interpret them as yes and no becasuse the two different tasks light up different parts of the brain when using an MRI machine. If they think of tennis it would be a yes, or if it is the navigation task we read that as no. I see that as pretty convincing physical evidence for human thought.

Heres an example: http://brainimaging.waisman.wisc.edu/~perlman/papers/Vegetative/Detecting-Awareness-in-the-Vegetative-State.pdf


Brain activity is not always a human though. And you cant just interpret  thoughts as yes or no. it doesnt work like that. But normaly, when a person thinks something, his or hers brain is active and that picture only shows the part of brain that is active when a person is thinking something, its not the picutre of an actual thought.

Evidently you can interpret it as 'yes' or 'no' because people do, as I showed. Arbitrarily announcing that it doesn't does not make you right. The brain activity is physical proof that a conscience thought has been made by the user. It may just be the areas of the brain that they are using to complete the task that light up, but it still provides physical evidence of the physical thought in the first place. And the fact that humans can sometimes make a thought with their subconscious  does not make any difference to an argument concerning the measurement of a conscience thought.



Reasonable said:
raptors11 said:
whatever said:
raptors11 said:
whatever said:
raptors11 said:
whatever said:

 

 



 

 

But let me try and help.

Imagine an archery target.  The centre rings are the theories were now know are facts.  They're not going to change.  The evidence is in, it all adds up and the theories relating to it will never change.  Now, the middle set of rings is where we're almost sure but not quite.  Let's say we know the theory is basically right but it may be tweaked a bit to get to 100%.  This is where Evolution sits.  We know it's right.  The evidence really is huge.  But, we don't understand every aspect of evolution.  For example we know how it works but maybe not exactly all the factors involved.  So that theory will continue to be tweaked until the middle rings are locked down as fact.  But evolution as a principle isn't going to change.  I assure you it won't because all the core theories are rock solid.

Now, the outer rings, well, that's where we're not sure yet.  But scientific theory isn't guessing.  Over time the evidence will allow us to be certain.  That ring will become like the former middle rings, and eventually will be locked in.  This area is the frontier of our current knowledge.

Again, you need to stop seeing scientific theories as some constantly changing mass of plastecine.  That's just wrong.  Many, many theories will never change because we know they are exact.  But we don't know everything, and that's where the changes take place.

OFF TOPIC: I have to say, reading some other replies in this thread, I understand why people like Richard Dawkins get so exasperated with people's lack of understanding.


That's a pretty interesting way of explaining it. I kind of wish I knew more about the topic so I could make a more educated response. Right now I'm in university and one of my classes is anthropology so we've been going over lots of evolutionary theory and that sort of thing. So by the end of the year I'll certainly have better answers.

For now all I can say is the reason I'm not convinced that evolution (as the origin of all species) is true is because of all the gaps and missing links in the evolutionary tree. Plus its hard to believe that all of the thousands...no millions of species of animals we have today evolved from the first life forms on Earth.

But I do believe that some evolution has occured since the time God created us (which is my belief). Natural selection makes perfect sense to me as only the strongest animals survive and therefore only the desirable traits get passed down to their offspring. Also there is good evidence of mutations occuring which mess with DNA and genes.

So really I'm on board with parts of science, but I don't think I'll ever change my belief that God created the world and everything in it unless there's some major breakthrough in science that is 100% fact/evidence based and not just theories.



trestres said:
oldschoolfool said:
trestres said:
oldschoolfool said:

I don't believe in a god because there's no proof. You have all these different religions with a god are a different take on the same god. So like god of war,we have a whole gang of gods in the sky,ruling different groups of people in the world. lol  To me believing in a god is no different than believing in unicorns and dragons and under-ground trolls. I just live my life and when you die you die. Nothing amazing and spectacular happens. I also don't believe in spirits and ghost  are ufo's,which to me,is like believing in a so-called god. Call me a cynic,but that's my take on the whole thing.


Haven't you ever asked yourself what the purpose of your life is? I doubt you live your life like a vegetal and when you die you die. It's much more deep than that and you know it.

no it's not. Nothing happens. All of that heaven and spirtual junk is just something man made up to feel good about themselves. You might as well believe in santa clause and the easter bunny. If you believe in all of that stuff,then more power to you,but that's just not me.


Why are you living then? I mean there has to be a purpose for you to live, you are not a plant or an animal that lives just for the sake of living without noticing that it is alive and that he's one day going to die. Why keep on living?


What if there is a God, and there is some huge overall plan that we are all apart of. That doesn't necessarily mean that we are all individually important and have some immortal part of us that will carry on past this life. Maybe we're just important in the overall continuation and development of our universe, but as an individual we don't mean much. If any part of us carries on to a different state of existence, I doubt it would carry any trace of memory or conscious thought, I think we'd become something entirely different from what we understand "existing" to be.

But who knows!



trestres said:
oldschoolfool said:
trestres said:
oldschoolfool said:
trestres said:
oldschoolfool said:

I don't believe in a god because there's no proof. You have all these different religions with a god are a different take on the same god. So like god of war,we have a whole gang of gods in the sky,ruling different groups of people in the world. lol  To me believing in a god is no different than believing in unicorns and dragons and under-ground trolls. I just live my life and when you die you die. Nothing amazing and spectacular happens. I also don't believe in spirits and ghost  are ufo's,which to me,is like believing in a so-called god. Call me a cynic,but that's my take on the whole thing.


Haven't you ever asked yourself what the purpose of your life is? I doubt you live your life like a vegetal and when you die you die. It's much more deep than that and you know it.

no it's not. Nothing happens. All of that heaven and spirtual junk is just something man made up to feel good about themselves. You might as well believe in santa clause and the easter bunny. If you believe in all of that stuff,then more power to you,but that's just not me.


Why are you living then? I mean there has to be a purpose for you to live, you are not a plant or an animal that lives just for the sake of living without noticing that it is alive and that he's one day going to die. Why keep on living?

I'm living because I was born. In my opinion humans are really no different than animals and plants,were just on top of the food chain. In my view life is like this,your born,you go to school,you go to work,you might have kids and get married,you die. Nothing more. Call me cynical and simple-minded if you want,but that's how I see the world. I know you'll probably disagree with me,but that's fine. You believe what you believe and I'll believe what I believe. lol

That would be a sad way of seeing life. Luckily I'm not seeing it that way.

BTW I don't follow any religion if that's what you are calling "spiritual junk". I do believe in a being that trascends all physical definitions, but I'm not following any strict rules like the Church imposes.

To be honest I think that way of looking at life (as in the atheist view of when you die, that's it!) actually makes you cherish life more. This is your one shot to make a difference to humanity and enjoy your existence and consciousness. Don't waste it!



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the concept of God can only be a sentient being because that is what people believed in and applied the name of God to.  the idea of the laws of physics being God would not be God at all, it would be simply a grouping of the physical laws of existence into a single term, but that concept wouldn't be the same as God.  so, there is no need to attempt to define what God is in regards to those two different concepts because the concept of god is only one of them and the other is not.

and in the case that the concept of God does not actually exist, that wouldn't make the laws of physics then God, it would simply continue them as what they are...the laws of physics. there is no confusion that needs to be clarified in this regard to then address the existence or non-existence of God. 



I'm agnostic...

But, God is the feeling you get in your spine at a heavy metal concert when your on a bunch of random pills.



Reasonable said:
libellule said:

OF COURSE it is a belief

same goes for Science (and Evolution for exemple)

Personnally, I try to not really ask me the "God question" since I do consider it is REALLY underproductive : I have just no clue if God exists or not, neither I feel important to ask me this question.

So, I do not believe in God, I dont know if God exists and I dont ask me this question.
I m so a "default" non God believer. ...

Having say this, I strongly consider religion to be EXTREMELY underproductive considering how easy they can separate people based on "useless" belief ... 

Sorry, got to pick you up on this.  Science is not, absolutely not, I mean really, really NOT a belief.

Science is about facts and evidence.  With science, the principle is to have no belief whatsoever.  If you need to believe in science then you're either missunderstanding it or don't want - which is understandable - to take the time to check it yourself - I don't in many cases, but let's not confuse what that means.

For example, I believe E=MC2.  But only because I am comfortable that it has been well proven and tested.  But I don't have to believe in it and I don't in the same principle as religion.  If I want, I can work out that E=MC2 because it can be done and come to the same answer.  In short, anything in science can be repeatably and reliably re-tested by anyone who wants to do so.

Another example, I don't have to believe in astronomers findings regarding planets, moons, etc.  I can set up a telescope and check myself.  In this latter case, I have done so a few times, and it is quite something to actually test and prove yourself that yes, what you read in a book is indeed true and matches your own observations.

So no, no, no, no, no... Science is not a belief just like religion.  TBH Science is the opposite of religion and that, in large part, is the root of a lot of the friction between the two.

Religion is about belief without evidence, science more accurately can be said to be about disbelief without evidence. 

SCIENCE IS A BELIEF

It is not the same belief than religion because religion is a blind belief while science is "tested" belief.
In clear, Religion is all about belief in something without doubting, without asking yourself "where does it come from ? why ?". Religion is basically all about having faith in.
While in Science, you basically doubt about EVERYTHING, all the time. It is only when something has been proven/tested that you can come and say "it is true !" (your gravity example for example).
To me, it is not about "disbelief without evidence" but more "belief with evidence". 
Of course, Science is not about faith ...

There is also just some very little shit in Science/Research :
- experimental error : whatever the level, you can have something wrong in the raw datas (because of the sample or the material used)
- interpretation error : scientist making a wrong interpretation
This means that what is true is often wrong ... suggesting you "only" belief it is true because it seems, right now, at this time, in these condition, "true"

Also, one of the major flaw of science is that, for most of us, it escapes from our understanding and so we are completely unable to prove/test it by ourself. This means we are, again, believing in what is said to be "true" wether it is true or not. I may know that electricity is produced by an electron movement ... I basically completely unable to prove it, neither propose an experiment to prove it. I m like 99.99% of the populaition : I belief what scientifc book/master says ... like in a religion.
To take another example : a computer is basically a pure black box for most of us. Fews people will be able to explain, and fully understand (at 100%) how it functions.

You know, I still agree with you for most of your points. I just consider that, at the end, Science is still about "belief". You may not blindly believe to old text or to religious guy like in religion BUT you will still believe in the scientific community that may be wrong, may publish shit, are just human with subjectif judgement AND is dealing with so complex stuff that the average guy is barely able to get what is happening.
You just belief in "human research/progress/knowledge" in a way.

At the end, when all is said : it is still about "belief or not"



Time to Work !

I definitly think there are forces out there, or "higher powers" that we don't understand, either by the limit of our brains, or by our lack of knowledge we have thus far. As humans, we are limited to what we know and are discovering new things all the time. So there are definitly uncharted areas and new levels of conciousness beyond are ability to comprehend. So I guess you can refer to that as "God" because it is a power higher than us.

But what I DON'T believe God is is a human-like figure up in the sky who watches over everything we do, has a concious mind, answers our prayers, bends things to his will, etc... I think that's a very simplistic view and is nothing more than a cop out for people that try to understand things that we can't understand.



I believe in a creator of some sort but he is not the allmighty God who created Earth in 6 days.

Spirituality > Organized religion