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Forums - General Discussion - Is athiesm a belief? What is "God?"

Rath said:
GameOver22 said:
Rath said:

Yes but gravity can be measured and quantified. God cannot.


I agree that God cannot be quantified, but the orderliness and rationality of the universe can be quantified. In the same way, the law of gravity cannot be quantified because it is non-physical. However, the observations that allow us to infer gravity can be quantified. My main point is that it is asking for the impossible if you want to quantify or measure something non-physical because these things have no physical existence. I think the confusion is that I am talking about gravity as a concept while you are talking about gravity as a force. 


I am confused. Gravity as a concept is merely an explanation of gravity as a force, its effects have been explored and are described by a series of equations. There are currently attempts to explain its origin in quantum theory that look likely to be succesful in the near future. You speak of measuring the non-physical but you use gravity in your analogy which without a doubt is something physical.

It is nothing at all like looking at the universe and saying 'God did it, because its orderly' which does not have any actual measurement or explanation behind it.

I really really am confused.


The law of gravity is not physical. I will try to explain it better without repeating myself. As science is structured, it makes observations of the physical world, and these observations then allow someone to infer some law that explains these observations. When someone says they observe the law of gravity, they do not mean they physically see the the law of gravity. They mean they see the effects of the law of gravity. Another way to describe it is by talking about numbers. Numbers exist as concepts. I cannot point under a chair and say, "there is the number 2". I can draw a number 2, but drawing something does not mean it exists. As you alluded to, the law of gravity is an equation, and equations are composed of numbers and mathematical symbols, both of which lack physical existence. In the way I say numbers lack physical existence, I would also say equations, and hence the law of gravity lacks physical existence.

If you notice, I am talking about the law of gravity and not the force of gravity. My point in my original post was that the law of gravity and scientific laws, in general, have no physical existence. They are just means of explaining the physical world. They are not actually in the physical world. This holds true for all concepts, and I was referring to the law of gravity when I said "gravity as a concept". Just think of things like justice, kindness, hatred. We can think of examples of these words, but we would not say justice physically exists somewhere.

When I said that orderliness and rationality can be quantifed, I was referring to the teleological fine-tuning argument. The main point is that there are quantifiable values and constants that had to be within a narrowly defined set of parameters at the beginning of the universe in order for a habitable universe to develop. When I say values, I mean things like the ratio of electrons to protons, the gravitational constant, and the strength of strong and weak nuclear forces. All these can be measured and quantified. There are a number of videos on youtube with people explaining it better than me. I recommend William Lane Craig if you are interested.

Its a little long-winded, but I hope that helps. Just as a note, I am not denying gravity or taking shots at science. I was just showing that there are quite a few things that we would say existed while they do not have any true physical existence.



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GameOver22 said:
Rath said:
GameOver22 said:
Rath said:

Yes but gravity can be measured and quantified. God cannot.


I agree that God cannot be quantified, but the orderliness and rationality of the universe can be quantified. In the same way, the law of gravity cannot be quantified because it is non-physical. However, the observations that allow us to infer gravity can be quantified. My main point is that it is asking for the impossible if you want to quantify or measure something non-physical because these things have no physical existence. I think the confusion is that I am talking about gravity as a concept while you are talking about gravity as a force. 


I am confused. Gravity as a concept is merely an explanation of gravity as a force, its effects have been explored and are described by a series of equations. There are currently attempts to explain its origin in quantum theory that look likely to be succesful in the near future. You speak of measuring the non-physical but you use gravity in your analogy which without a doubt is something physical.

It is nothing at all like looking at the universe and saying 'God did it, because its orderly' which does not have any actual measurement or explanation behind it.

I really really am confused.


The law of gravity is not physical. I will try to explain it better without repeating myself. As science is structured, it makes observations of the physical world, and these observations then allow someone to infer some law that explains these observations. When someone says they observe the law of gravity, they do not mean they physically see the the law of gravity. They mean they see the effects of the law of gravity. Another way to describe it is by talking about numbers. Numbers exist as concepts. I cannot point under a chair and say, "there is the number 2". I can draw a number 2, but drawing something does not mean it exists. As you alluded to, the law of gravity is an equation, and equations are composed of numbers and mathematical symbols, both of which lack physical existence. In the way I say numbers lack physical existence, I would also say equations, and hence the law of gravity lacks physical existence.

If you notice, I am talking about the law of gravity and not the force of gravity. My point in my original post was that the law of gravity and scientific laws, in general, have no physical existence. They are just means of explaining the physical world. They are not actually in the physical world. This holds true for all concepts, and I was referring to the law of gravity when I said "gravity as a concept". Just think of things like justice, kindness, hatred. We can think of examples of these words, but we would not say justice physically exists somewhere.

When I said that orderliness and rationality can be quantifed, I was referring to the teleological fine-tuning argument. The main point is that there are quantifiable values and constants that had to be within a narrowly defined set of parameters at the beginning of the universe in order for a habitable universe to develop. When I say values, I mean things like the ratio of electrons to protons, the gravitational constant, and the strength of strong and weak nuclear forces. All these can be measured and quantified. There are a number of videos on youtube with people explaining it better than me. I recommend William Lane Craig if you are interested.

Its a little long-winded, but I hope that helps. Just as a note, I am not denying gravity or taking shots at science. I was just showing that there are quite a few things that we would say existed while they do not have any true physical existence

I don't see how you can relate a law of science, essentially a mathematical explanation of an observation, to God. Science observes, hypothesises and then tests against physical  evidence. You simply cannot do the last step when hypothesising that God created the universe.

As for the teleological fine-tuning argument, it largely falls apart due to the anthropic principle. The anthropic principle essentially states that if the universe was not perfect for life then we would not be able to observe it. Hence if there are a large number of universes (which currently seems very likely) then only universes with the perfect parameters would ever be observed.



A god doesn't have to be sentient for people to believe in it as there are plenty of pantheists. God = nature. God is in everything, etc. 

However, a painter is not a painting and an architect is not a building. In the same way, the creator can not be part of the creation. 

This would mean trees, rocks, eagles, etc cannot be a god. I don't think it limits physics from being a god though. 

What I think would limit physics from being a god is that its a set of rules that will always behave in a particular way. So physics is not a god because physics is a force, a law, or a rule book. However, a god could be described as whatever entity, separate from the creation, that is in control of physics, chemistry and biology and determines how they function. This entity could, perhaps, change these rules as they see fit.



Rath said:
GameOver22 said:


The law of gravity is not physical. I will try to explain it better without repeating myself. As science is structured, it makes observations of the physical world, and these observations then allow someone to infer some law that explains these observations. When someone says they observe the law of gravity, they do not mean they physically see the the law of gravity. They mean they see the effects of the law of gravity. Another way to describe it is by talking about numbers. Numbers exist as concepts. I cannot point under a chair and say, "there is the number 2". I can draw a number 2, but drawing something does not mean it exists. As you alluded to, the law of gravity is an equation, and equations are composed of numbers and mathematical symbols, both of which lack physical existence. In the way I say numbers lack physical existence, I would also say equations, and hence the law of gravity lacks physical existence.

If you notice, I am talking about the law of gravity and not the force of gravity. My point in my original post was that the law of gravity and scientific laws, in general, have no physical existence. They are just means of explaining the physical world. They are not actually in the physical world. This holds true for all concepts, and I was referring to the law of gravity when I said "gravity as a concept". Just think of things like justice, kindness, hatred. We can think of examples of these words, but we would not say justice physically exists somewhere.

When I said that orderliness and rationality can be quantifed, I was referring to the teleological fine-tuning argument. The main point is that there are quantifiable values and constants that had to be within a narrowly defined set of parameters at the beginning of the universe in order for a habitable universe to develop. When I say values, I mean things like the ratio of electrons to protons, the gravitational constant, and the strength of strong and weak nuclear forces. All these can be measured and quantified. There are a number of videos on youtube with people explaining it better than me. I recommend William Lane Craig if you are interested.

Its a little long-winded, but I hope that helps. Just as a note, I am not denying gravity or taking shots at science. I was just showing that there are quite a few things that we would say existed while they do not have any true physical existence

I don't see how you can relate a law of science, essentially a mathematical explanation of an observation, to God. Science observes, hypothesises and then tests against physical  evidence. You simply cannot do the last step when hypothesising that God created the universe.

As for the teleological fine-tuning argument, it largely falls apart due to the anthropic principle. The anthropic principle essentially states that if the universe was not perfect for life then we would not be able to observe it. Hence if there are a large number of universes (which currently seems very likely) then only universes with the perfect parameters would ever be observed.

The only thing I am comparing is the non-physical nature of God and a law of science. This was the point of my last post and is the only relationship I am drawing. I am just comparing one characteristic of God with one characteristic of a scientific law. I am hardly trying to put the two on equal footing. I am quite certain the anthropic principle just says the universe is suitable for life, not perfect. Personally, I never found the anthropic principle very satisfactory as a form of explanation. Its essentially just saying, "we are alive, therefore we live in a place that is suitable for us living here". I would not even qualify this as an explanation at all. The only way the anthropic principle even functions as an explanation is in conjunction with the multiverse theory. The multiverse theory also has its problems though. The primary one is we cannot view another universe. This is where the question about the simplicity of God's mind enters the deabte. Because we cannot have any direct observational evidence of God or the multiverse, we have to find out which one is simpler.

Why do you say it seems likely that there are a large number of universes?



kowhoho said:
Scoobes said:
trestres said:
 

 

To be honest I think that way of looking at life (as in the atheist view of when you die, that's it!) actually makes you cherish life more. This is your one shot to make a difference to humanity and enjoy your existence and consciousness. Don't waste it!

I'm not necessarily saying this directly to you, but I want to point out that it's illogical to generalize belief. No matter how much people will say that they are a part of a belief system or a school of thought, there is never complete uniformity. Just because one Christian is a racist doesn't mean they all are. And with atheists, there is far less uniformity. Just because all atheists disregard the existence of a God as defined by religious texts/preachers, doesn't mean any of their other beliefs are uniform. Pretty much the only thing that unites atheists is that they believe there is no God. Beyond that, an atheist can be a fatalist, solipsist, nihilist, humanist etc. all the way to the moon.

True, but I was just using the generalisation to get my point across.



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pizzahut451 said:
hsrob said:
pizzahut451 said:
Reasonable said:
pizzahut451 said:
mysticwolf said:

I just think the idea of God is unrational. There's no logic. There's no physical evidence of God.

There is evidence to support that life started long ago with volcanic eruptions underwater. The volcanoes released chemicals, and these certain chemicals reacted with elements on the surface of the earth, and the right conditions were made for bacteria to be created.

Here's an article:

http://www.rsc.org/chemistryworld/News/2006/October/26100603.asp


there is no phisical evidence of a human thought either...just sayin


Sure there is.  You ever see a brain scan or wonder how they can make a device capable of identifying certain brain patterns and using that to operate something?

Thought can be traced back to activity in the brain.


do you mind showing mee the picture of a human though? A brain scan doesnt really show an actuall human thought. Otherwise, people could read other peoples thoughts from it. I mean, my cousins brother is a neurosurgeon, he operates on ahuman brain and he never saw a human though.  

You can't see oxygen either but do you believe in that? YES!!! Exactly, that was my point in the first place. Just because you cant see something doesnt mean that it doesnt exist.  Thoughts are caused by the complex movements and interactions of a range of very, very small chemicals that aren't significantly larger that O2 molecules.  Never mind the limits of human vision and the practicalities of being able to see inside the head of a living person, the laws of physics would prohibit us from seeing/recognising them in any meaningful way.

We can however stick electrodes in peoples brains and evoke or invoke a wide range of thoughts and emotions.  We can give drugs to people, with known mechanisms of action, which can influence their thoughts and emotions.  Brain injury either traumatic or otherwise can result in people being unable to have or process certain kinds of thoughts, the list goes on and on. Exactly, but i still havent see how a human thought looks like. Sure, we cant track them, acsess them and study them, but we can never actually see how they look like.  Like it or not this is evidence of the physical nature of thought.No, its the evidence of an exsitance of a human thought and that we can change them. I never denied that they existed nor did i say we cant operate on them. I just said there is no physical evidence of them.  Better evidence is dependent one or two factors; significantly better technology than we currently have or a major shift in ethics which  renders experimentation on live human subjects once again acceptable.



 

I have a feeling something may have been lost in translation here but I may be wrong.

Saying something is invisible due to it's physical properties is absolutely different from saying there is no physical evidence of it.

There is lots of physical evidence of the existance of human thought as outlined above.  The fact that we will never be able to 'see' thoughts the way we can see a bird or a tree, does not disprove there physical nature nor lessen the weight of physical evidence proving there existance. 

There is at this time, as far as I am concerned, no such compelling evidence for the existance of a God.



zarx said:
pizzahut451 said:
highwaystar101 said:
pizzahut451 said:
highwaystar101 said:
pizzahut451 said:


there is no phisical evidence of a human thought either...just sayin

We can locate areas of brain activity by using magnetic resonance imaging. certain areas become active when people have certain thoughts. An example of this can give is the way we can communicate with people in a vegetative state. We can tell a person to think of playing tennis or navigate their house. We can detect their thoughts and interpret them as yes and no becasuse the two different tasks light up different parts of the brain when using an MRI machine. If they think of tennis it would be a yes, or if it is the navigation task we read that as no. I see that as pretty convincing physical evidence for human thought.

Heres an example: http://brainimaging.waisman.wisc.edu/~perlman/papers/Vegetative/Detecting-Awareness-in-the-Vegetative-State.pdf


Brain activity is not always a human though. And you cant just interpret  thoughts as yes or no. it doesnt work like that. But normaly, when a person thinks something, his or hers brain is active and that picture only shows the part of brain that is active when a person is thinking something, its not the picutre of an actual thought.

Evidently you can interpret it as 'yes' or 'no' because people do, as I showed. Arbitrarily announcing that it doesn't does not make you right. The brain activity is physical proof that a conscience thought has been made by the user. It may just be the areas of the brain that they are using to complete the task that light up, but it still provides physical evidence of the physical thought in the first place. And the fact that humans can sometimes make a thought with their subconscious  does not make any difference to an argument concerning the measurement of a conscience thought.

No its not .. It just shows the person thinking. Its an evidence for the existance and activity of a human thought and brain activity itself. Not an actual evidence that shows a human thought. And btw, a human soul has no physical evidence whatsoever but it doesnt mean it doesnt exist.

but the physical changes in the brain during thought is physical proof of thought. You can prove something exists without seeing it. I mean can you see pain? no but I sure can prove that pain exists. 

Seeing is not believing any-more. 


Yes but the human thought itelf doesnt have a physical evidence. And that is my point. Of course, we can track thoughts and see how they work and where they work, but we dont actually have visual or physical evidence of a human thought.



pizzahut451 said:
zarx said:
pizzahut451 said:
highwaystar101 said:
pizzahut451 said:
highwaystar101 said:
pizzahut451 said:


there is no phisical evidence of a human thought either...just sayin

We can locate areas of brain activity by using magnetic resonance imaging. certain areas become active when people have certain thoughts. An example of this can give is the way we can communicate with people in a vegetative state. We can tell a person to think of playing tennis or navigate their house. We can detect their thoughts and interpret them as yes and no becasuse the two different tasks light up different parts of the brain when using an MRI machine. If they think of tennis it would be a yes, or if it is the navigation task we read that as no. I see that as pretty convincing physical evidence for human thought.

Heres an example: http://brainimaging.waisman.wisc.edu/~perlman/papers/Vegetative/Detecting-Awareness-in-the-Vegetative-State.pdf


Brain activity is not always a human though. And you cant just interpret  thoughts as yes or no. it doesnt work like that. But normaly, when a person thinks something, his or hers brain is active and that picture only shows the part of brain that is active when a person is thinking something, its not the picutre of an actual thought.

Evidently you can interpret it as 'yes' or 'no' because people do, as I showed. Arbitrarily announcing that it doesn't does not make you right. The brain activity is physical proof that a conscience thought has been made by the user. It may just be the areas of the brain that they are using to complete the task that light up, but it still provides physical evidence of the physical thought in the first place. And the fact that humans can sometimes make a thought with their subconscious  does not make any difference to an argument concerning the measurement of a conscience thought.

No its not .. It just shows the person thinking. Its an evidence for the existance and activity of a human thought and brain activity itself. Not an actual evidence that shows a human thought. And btw, a human soul has no physical evidence whatsoever but it doesnt mean it doesnt exist.

but the physical changes in the brain during thought is physical proof of thought. You can prove something exists without seeing it. I mean can you see pain? no but I sure can prove that pain exists. 

Seeing is not believing any-more. 


Yes but the human thought itelf doesnt have a physical evidence. And that is my point. Of course, we can track thoughts and see how they work and where they work, but we dont actually have visual or physical evidence of a human thought.

You seem to be trying to equate visual with physical evidence, and they are just not even close to being the same thing.  I honestly think you are misapprehending people's meaning when they say 'physical evidence'.

What would you consider 'physical evidence' in this context?



hsrob said:
pizzahut451 said:
zarx said:
pizzahut451 said:
highwaystar101 said:
pizzahut451 said:
highwaystar101 said:
pizzahut451 said:


there is no phisical evidence of a human thought either...just sayin

We can locate areas of brain activity by using magnetic resonance imaging. certain areas become active when people have certain thoughts. An example of this can give is the way we can communicate with people in a vegetative state. We can tell a person to think of playing tennis or navigate their house. We can detect their thoughts and interpret them as yes and no becasuse the two different tasks light up different parts of the brain when using an MRI machine. If they think of tennis it would be a yes, or if it is the navigation task we read that as no. I see that as pretty convincing physical evidence for human thought.

Heres an example: http://brainimaging.waisman.wisc.edu/~perlman/papers/Vegetative/Detecting-Awareness-in-the-Vegetative-State.pdf


Brain activity is not always a human though. And you cant just interpret  thoughts as yes or no. it doesnt work like that. But normaly, when a person thinks something, his or hers brain is active and that picture only shows the part of brain that is active when a person is thinking something, its not the picutre of an actual thought.

Evidently you can interpret it as 'yes' or 'no' because people do, as I showed. Arbitrarily announcing that it doesn't does not make you right. The brain activity is physical proof that a conscience thought has been made by the user. It may just be the areas of the brain that they are using to complete the task that light up, but it still provides physical evidence of the physical thought in the first place. And the fact that humans can sometimes make a thought with their subconscious  does not make any difference to an argument concerning the measurement of a conscience thought.

No its not .. It just shows the person thinking. Its an evidence for the existance and activity of a human thought and brain activity itself. Not an actual evidence that shows a human thought. And btw, a human soul has no physical evidence whatsoever but it doesnt mean it doesnt exist.

but the physical changes in the brain during thought is physical proof of thought. You can prove something exists without seeing it. I mean can you see pain? no but I sure can prove that pain exists. 

Seeing is not believing any-more. 


Yes but the human thought itelf doesnt have a physical evidence. And that is my point. Of course, we can track thoughts and see how they work and where they work, but we dont actually have visual or physical evidence of a human thought.

You seem to be trying to equate visual with physical evidence, and they are just not even close to being the same thing.  I honestly think you are misapprehending people's meaning when they say 'physical evidence'.

What would you consider 'physical evidence' in this context?

I do not think he is equating visual and physical evidence. Visual evidence is a subset of physical evidence though. His point is that there is no direct physical evidence of a human thought. I cannot see, touch, or hear another person's thought in the same way I can see, touch, or hear (if I knock on it) the chair sitting in my room. The proof of a human thought is going to be through indirect physical evidence. For instance, I could carry on a conversation with you, and then I could infer that thoughts are responsibe for what you are saying. However, I cannot directly observe a human thought and point it out to you, but I could point out the effects of a human thought. He is simply talking about direct physical evidence while you are talking about indirect or inferential physical evidence. I think both of you are right, but you are talking about two different things.



hsrob said:
pizzahut451 said:
hsrob said:
pizzahut451 said:
Reasonable said:
pizzahut451 said:
mysticwolf said:

I just think the idea of God is unrational. There's no logic. There's no physical evidence of God.

There is evidence to support that life started long ago with volcanic eruptions underwater. The volcanoes released chemicals, and these certain chemicals reacted with elements on the surface of the earth, and the right conditions were made for bacteria to be created.

Here's an article:

http://www.rsc.org/chemistryworld/News/2006/October/26100603.asp


there is no phisical evidence of a human thought either...just sayin


Sure there is.  You ever see a brain scan or wonder how they can make a device capable of identifying certain brain patterns and using that to operate something?

Thought can be traced back to activity in the brain.


do you mind showing mee the picture of a human though? A brain scan doesnt really show an actuall human thought. Otherwise, people could read other peoples thoughts from it. I mean, my cousins brother is a neurosurgeon, he operates on ahuman brain and he never saw a human though.  

You can't see oxygen either but do you believe in that? YES!!! Exactly, that was my point in the first place. Just because you cant see something doesnt mean that it doesnt exist.  Thoughts are caused by the complex movements and interactions of a range of very, very small chemicals that aren't significantly larger that O2 molecules.  Never mind the limits of human vision and the practicalities of being able to see inside the head of a living person, the laws of physics would prohibit us from seeing/recognising them in any meaningful way.

We can however stick electrodes in peoples brains and evoke or invoke a wide range of thoughts and emotions.  We can give drugs to people, with known mechanisms of action, which can influence their thoughts and emotions.  Brain injury either traumatic or otherwise can result in people being unable to have or process certain kinds of thoughts, the list goes on and on. Exactly, but i still havent see how a human thought looks like. Sure, we cant track them, acsess them and study them, but we can never actually see how they look like.  Like it or not this is evidence of the physical nature of thought.No, its the evidence of an exsitance of a human thought and that we can change them. I never denied that they existed nor did i say we cant operate on them. I just said there is no physical evidence of them.  Better evidence is dependent one or two factors; significantly better technology than we currently have or a major shift in ethics which  renders experimentation on live human subjects once again acceptable.



 

I have a feeling something may have been lost in translation here but I may be wrong.

Saying something is invisible due to it's physical properties is absolutely different from saying there is no physical evidence of it.

There is lots of physical evidence of the existance of human thought as outlined above.  The fact that we will never be able to 'see' thoughts the way we can see a bird or a tree, does not disprove there physical nature nor lessen the weight of physical evidence proving there existance. 

There is at this time, as far as I am concerned, no such compelling evidence for the existance of a God.

You are right, i wanted to say that there is no physical evidence for a human thought, as in, we cant see it or take it out for an example. So i guess i was looking for a visual evidence of a human thought not the evidence for its activity or existance. Sorry for the misunderstanding.