Is athiesm a belief? What is "God?"

[Rath]

GameOver22 said:

Rath said:

GameOver22 said:

Rath said:

Yes but gravity can be measured and quantified. God cannot.

I agree that God cannot be quantified, but the orderliness and rationality of the universe can be quantified. In the same way, the law of gravity cannot be quantified because it is non-physical. However, the observations that allow us to infer gravity can be quantified. My main point is that it is asking for the impossible if you want to quantify or measure something non-physical because these things have no physical existence. I think the confusion is that I am talking about gravity as a concept while you are talking about gravity as a force. 

I am confused. Gravity as a concept is merely an explanation of gravity as a force, its effects have been explored and are described by a series of equations. There are currently attempts to explain its origin in quantum theory that look likely to be succesful in the near future. You speak of measuring the non-physical but you use gravity in your analogy which without a doubt is something physical.

It is nothing at all like looking at the universe and saying 'God did it, because its orderly' which does not have any actual measurement or explanation behind it.

I really really am confused.

The law of gravity is not physical. I will try to explain it better without repeating myself. As science is structured, it makes observations of the physical world, and these observations then allow someone to infer some law that explains these observations. When someone says they observe the law of gravity, they do not mean they physically see the the law of gravity. They mean they see the effects of the law of gravity. Another way to describe it is by talking about numbers. Numbers exist as concepts. I cannot point under a chair and say, "there is the number 2". I can draw a number 2, but drawing something does not mean it exists. As you alluded to, the law of gravity is an equation, and equations are composed of numbers and mathematical symbols, both of which lack physical existence. In the way I say numbers lack physical existence, I would also say equations, and hence the law of gravity lacks physical existence.

If you notice, I am talking about the law of gravity and not the force of gravity. My point in my original post was that the law of gravity and scientific laws, in general, have no physical existence. They are just means of explaining the physical world. They are not actually in the physical world. This holds true for all concepts, and I was referring to the law of gravity when I said "gravity as a concept". Just think of things like justice, kindness, hatred. We can think of examples of these words, but we would not say justice physically exists somewhere.

When I said that orderliness and rationality can be quantifed, I was referring to the teleological fine-tuning argument. The main point is that there are quantifiable values and constants that had to be within a narrowly defined set of parameters at the beginning of the universe in order for a habitable universe to develop. When I say values, I mean things like the ratio of electrons to protons, the gravitational constant, and the strength of strong and weak nuclear forces. All these can be measured and quantified. There are a number of videos on youtube with people explaining it better than me. I recommend William Lane Craig if you are interested.

Its a little long-winded, but I hope that helps. Just as a note, I am not denying gravity or taking shots at science. I was just showing that there are quite a few things that we would say existed while they do not have any true physical existence

I don't see how you can relate a law of science, essentially a mathematical explanation of an observation, to God. Science observes, hypothesises and then tests against physical  evidence. You simply cannot do the last step when hypothesising that God created the universe.

As for the teleological fine-tuning argument, it largely falls apart due to the anthropic principle. The anthropic principle essentially states that if the universe was not perfect for life then we would not be able to observe it. Hence if there are a large number of universes (which currently seems very likely) then only universes with the perfect parameters would ever be observed.