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Forums - General Discussion - What's your point of view in the Hiroshima and Nagasaki atomic bomb?

hallowedbeeddie said:
Kantor said:
Lostplanet22 said:


What you are saying is that when someone murders someone we should murder his daughter?

Yeah sorry I am confused...

You can't compare a country of 100 million people to a single man. The country does something, you punish the country. But again, the atomic bombs weren't punishment; war is war. The atomic bombs were a means of forcing Japan to surrender. Not ideal, but the best America could have done, given the circumstances. Do remember that they had no idea what this bomb did, except cause a massive explosion. Which is why they never used it again.

it doesnt matter if you kill person or 100 thounds, you would still be a murderer. just 1 life is unique and irreplaceable

Ideally, you kill nobody.

But if you have a choice between killing 300,000 and killing over a million, you choose the lower number. Whether they are civilians or soldiers isn't really relevant.



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raptors11 said:

Casualties of the 2 atomic bombs - About 200,000

http://www.atomicarchive.com/Docs/MED/med_chp10.shtml

 

Chinese civilians killed by the Japanese during Japan's invasions of China during WWII - About 17 million

http://www.japan-101.com/history/sino1.htm

 

 

I don't feel bad at all for Japan. They killed so many civilians. Out of those 17 million chinese they killed it says 10 million or so were collateral damage of military operations which is understanble to some extent, but the other 7 million were basically murdered in non-military operations.

you contradict yourself because you disapprove of what the japanese did to the chinese yet you think it was ok to kill children in schools that had nothing to do with war. sure the japanese were horrible but why did kids have to pay? so what you are saying is that you fell good about innocent children and women dying just because of the terrible things their army did?

if so you make me sick



hallowedbeeddie said:
raptors11 said:

Casualties of the 2 atomic bombs - About 200,000

http://www.atomicarchive.com/Docs/MED/med_chp10.shtml

 

Chinese civilians killed by the Japanese during Japan's invasions of China during WWII - About 17 million

http://www.japan-101.com/history/sino1.htm

 

 

I don't feel bad at all for Japan. They killed so many civilians. Out of those 17 million chinese they killed it says 10 million or so were collateral damage of military operations which is understanble to some extent, but the other 7 million were basically murdered in non-military operations.

you contradict yourself because you disapprove of what the japanese did to the chinese yet you think it was ok to kill children in schools that had nothing to do with war. sure the japanese were horrible but why did kids have to pay? so what you are saying is that you fell good about innocent children and women dying just because of the terrible things their army did?

if so you make me sick

Yes of course in a perfect world children (actually innocents overall) shouldn't be affected by war. But if you think that wouldn't have happened if they didn't dropped the Atomic bombs (see Tokyo bombings) than frankly I believe your world view isn't realistic and borders on the fairy tail world.



SleepWaking said:
hallowedbeeddie said:
raptors11 said:

Casualties of the 2 atomic bombs - About 200,000

http://www.atomicarchive.com/Docs/MED/med_chp10.shtml

 

Chinese civilians killed by the Japanese during Japan's invasions of China during WWII - About 17 million

http://www.japan-101.com/history/sino1.htm

 

 

I don't feel bad at all for Japan. They killed so many civilians. Out of those 17 million chinese they killed it says 10 million or so were collateral damage of military operations which is understanble to some extent, but the other 7 million were basically murdered in non-military operations.

you contradict yourself because you disapprove of what the japanese did to the chinese yet you think it was ok to kill children in schools that had nothing to do with war. sure the japanese were horrible but why did kids have to pay? so what you are saying is that you fell good about innocent children and women dying just because of the terrible things their army did?

if so you make me sick

Yes of course in a perfect world children (actually innocents overall) shouldn't be affected by war. But if you think that wouldn't have happened if they didn't dropped the Atomic bombs (see Tokyo bombings) than frankly I believe your world view isn't realistic and borders on the fairy tail world.


of course it would have happened and it still happens to this day. and innocent are usually the ones that suffer the most. I´m very aware of that, but what upsets me is how can someone feel bad the suffering of one group of people yet feel completely indifferent to the suffering of another

edit



Just got to add that the pictures of the Nanking Massacre are really quite horrible.



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bazmeistergen said:

Dunno if anyone has said this in pages 2 and 3, but...

a) If Hiroshima was such an important base why did it not get bombed at all when most other cities were firebombed?

b) There is plenty of evidence (and was known at the time) that the Japanese were talking about surrendering. There would have not been a need for a full-scale invasion... only an insane faction of the Japanese government wanted to fight on - still trying to get over the poster (non-gravity) that said it was fine because Japanese had killed and bombed themselves - in that case 9/11 was fine... which of course it wasn't.

c) Revisionist histories focus on the need to keep the Soviets out (and to demonstrate US power to those same awkward 'reds')

It's a bit of an orthodoxy to say it saved lives...

I'll check out the rest of the pages now.

a) They were leaving Hiroshima for the atomic bomb. A dick move, but it was still necessary. The purpose of the bomb was to show the Japanese what they could do and to get them to surrender. Thus, bombing an already bombed city would be beating a dead horse. 

b) Where does it say that? Please show! But yes, they may have been talking about surrendering, but does it mean they were immediately going to do so? Nope. 

c) Those are part of the reasons why an invasion of Japan would've been waay worse. Millions of people dead, plus Japan being divided between communists and capitalists. Int he long run that outcome was way worse.

I mean, look at Japan right now. They're doing relatively well-off dontcha think? 



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Pimp3k said:
c03n3nj0 said:

This makes no sense whatsoever.

 They were killed because they were Japanese...

BECAUSE THE U.S WAS IN WAR WITH JAPAN!

It's like saying the Allies bombed Berlin because they were racist against Germans. No, it was because they were at war with Germany.

So? When your in a war with someone you can completely eliminate the whole nation? The vital point I'm trying to make is that nuking was deliberate systematic destruction.

So? 

It's not Genocide. 

It was deliberate systematic destruction. To get the Japanese to surrender. But not genocide. 



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Kantor said:
hallowedbeeddie said:
Kantor said:
Lostplanet22 said:


What you are saying is that when someone murders someone we should murder his daughter?

Yeah sorry I am confused...

You can't compare a country of 100 million people to a single man. The country does something, you punish the country. But again, the atomic bombs weren't punishment; war is war. The atomic bombs were a means of forcing Japan to surrender. Not ideal, but the best America could have done, given the circumstances. Do remember that they had no idea what this bomb did, except cause a massive explosion. Which is why they never used it again.

it doesnt matter if you kill person or 100 thounds, you would still be a murderer. just 1 life is unique and irreplaceable

Ideally, you kill nobody.

But if you have a choice between killing 300,000 and killing over a million, you choose the lower number. Whether they are civilians or soldiers isn't really relevant.

That's assuming that there was that choice in the first place, of course.

Perhaps the decision-makers (subconsciously) didn't care about the Japanese overtures for peace (which were significant) because they had already in their minds decided that the Japanese weren't serious - probably because (subconsciously) they wanted to use the bomb - after all, they had just invested a lot of money in it and had several 'good' reasons to use them. The orthodox/revisionist/post-revisionist debate over this is quite interesting, but it is clearly more complex than just saying they did it to save lives.



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www.spacemag.org - contribute your stuff... satire, comics, ideas, debate, stupidy stupid etc.

With the logic of retaliating for Japanese crimes, they should have been the Chinese to bomb Japan. And applying the same principle, Native American survivors of the most decimated tribes would be justified to bomb some middle sized US towns. Southern French could bomb Northern France to retaliate for the Albigean Crusade. Eastern Europe and Western and Central Asia could gang together and destroy Mongolia to take vengeance for Genghis Khan. And why not dropping the bomb on Berlin at the end of WW II, just to be sure to kill Hitler and his buddies? OTOH the Polish could have considered bombing Moskow, as the original criminal deal between Hitler and Stalin to share Europe caused the start of WW II at their expenses, and they kept on paying even after the war, oppressd by URSS.



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hallowedbeeddie said:
SleepWaking said:
hallowedbeeddie said:
raptors11 said:

Casualties of the 2 atomic bombs - About 200,000

http://www.atomicarchive.com/Docs/MED/med_chp10.shtml

 

Chinese civilians killed by the Japanese during Japan's invasions of China during WWII - About 17 million

http://www.japan-101.com/history/sino1.htm

 

 

I don't feel bad at all for Japan. They killed so many civilians. Out of those 17 million chinese they killed it says 10 million or so were collateral damage of military operations which is understanble to some extent, but the other 7 million were basically murdered in non-military operations.

you contradict yourself because you disapprove of what the japanese did to the chinese yet you think it was ok to kill children in schools that had nothing to do with war. sure the japanese were horrible but why did kids have to pay? so what you are saying is that you fell good about innocent children and women dying just because of the terrible things their army did?

if so you make me sick

Yes of course in a perfect world children (actually innocents overall) shouldn't be affected by war. But if you think that wouldn't have happened if they didn't dropped the Atomic bombs (see Tokyo bombings) than frankly I believe your world view isn't realistic and borders on the fairy tail world.


of course it would have happened and it still happens to this day. and innocent are usually the ones that suffer the most. I´m very aware of that, but what upsets me is how can someone feel bad the suffering of one group of people yet feel completely indifferent to the suffering of another

edit

Hmm OK, I agree with you there. I thought you were making a point, which you apparently weren't.