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dib8rman on 28 September 2010

Pizzahut, your apples do not look like oranges. No matter how hard you try they are still apples.

How about a real historic example.

Christians would get diseases rodents, bird or whatever and wrap them in blankets for weeks then sell the blankets to native Americans in order to lower their population enough to launch overt attacks on them.

I don't believe the pilgrims need to validify their christianity.



I'm Unamerica and you can too.

The Official Huge Monster Hunter Thread: 



The Hunt Begins 4/20/2010 =D

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kowhoho on 28 September 2010
GameOver22 said:
kowhoho said:
pizzahut451 said:
kowhoho said:
pizzahut451 said:
 

Statistics are constantly being used for the betterment of mankind and are a huge component of all the developements which make your life easier. For you to say that they are 'stupid' or 'biased' is quite frankly an insult to what humanity has accomplished for itself.Bias is always present as human error cannot be entirely removed from a human study, but there are methods that statistics use (such as random sampling or double-blind studies) which bring the potential for bias down to an acceptable level. A good statistcical study ensures that its results have less than a 5% chance of happening by chance, and those studies are often repeated many times regardless, so there is a complete certainty of their results.

You also seem to be overlooking the point I'm trying to make. I never said that atheism CAUSES wealth, low crime rates or anything of the sort. Neither did he. I can most definitely say that an atheist is less likely to commit crime or be poor because of the negative correlation between the two. This prediction is only based on the correlation between the variables. This is not a generalization and in no way does it imply that NO atheist would commit crime.

Let's use a different example.

Consider a study where students' GPA and the hours they watch TV are compared. Let's say that the study finds a strong negative correlation between Hours of TV Watching and GPA (more hours of tv = lower GPA). From this data, assuming it was taken with a randomly collected sample of students and biases were minimized, I can predict that a student who watches a lot of TV will have a low GPA. Yes? However this does not mean that watching TV CAUSES bad grades. There could be a third unknown variable which is causing both the high amount of TV watching AND the low GPA, such as inherent laziness.

 

Now let's move on to your use of the term, "real christian." Can you actually define to me right now what a real christian is? I seriously doubt it. I find it funny that you call my arguments shallow and them use terms with no operational definition. There are a thousand sects of christianity that don't agree with one another. Are you so vain as to say that your church has a monopoly on morality? Your statements are uninformed, narrow-minded and arrogant.

I never insulted ALL statistics ever made. I just said that that one statistic sucked. I have absolutely nothing agaisnt the statistics as long as they are good, accurate and unbiased.

And i understood what you wanted to say. But you still cant say that an atheist is less likely to comitt a crime either. An individual atheist is less likley to comitt a crime? Probably. Atheists as a group of people are less likely to comitt crime and are more richer than other people? HELL NO! Thats why that argument is dumb IMO.  To say that atheists are less likely to comitt a crime than christians or muslims or jews is wrong.

And let me put that really simple for you: A good christian is a good person who believes in the teachings of Jesus Christ. A person who steales, rapes, kills, aussaults people is NOT a real chrisitan, regardless if he believes in Jesus or not. Thats the way God sees things, and thats the way i see them too.

You have no basis for the underlined. It isn't "wrong" to use statistics to predict the character of a person. Please explain to me how these statistics are anything but "good, accurate and unbiased." Without any reasoning behind that comment it sounds like you're just trying to find details that will support your argument and ignore anything that doesn't.

"Good" is also a subjective term. My "good" is likely to be very different from your "good." It is not an objective term to be used for definition.

And how do you know how God sees things? It's wonderful that you think that you share a kind of "holy vision" with him/her/it, but where do you get this statement from? Please don't use the word bible in your answer. >_>

The point being made is that in order to be a Christian, a person must follow Christian doctrine. In terms of crime, the obvious example here is the Ten Commandments . I would not go so far as to say a person is a bad Christian if they committ a crime because humans are not perfect, but a Christian does need to generally avoid breaking the law in order to be in compliance with Christian doctrine. If someone told me they were a Christian and then proceeded to habitually steal from others, I would question their Christianity because their actions are in direct conflict with Christian teachings. I am not saying that general adherence to Christian doctrine is a suffiecient condition for saying someone is a Christian, but it is a necessary one.

Just as another note, while Christian denominations and sects disagree on some things, I think you will find that they are in agreement with each other on the major issues. For example, they will believe that God created the universe, that Jesus Christ rose from the dead, and they will agree on the Ten Commandments. Also, asking pizzahut to present God's view without referring to the Bible is asking a bit too much. Without the Bible, he would just be making up his own vision or alludicating someone else's vision. I am not an expert on the Bible, but I think most Christians consider the Bible to be the best source for interpreting God's intentions and God's vision of the world.

You do have a good point, but I still don't think there is a singular definition for "christian," and I find it hypocritical of a religion to have any differentiation in beliefs at all. If it's your belief system then that's it. There's no haggling with religion. Either it's the truth or it isn't, there's no in-between.

For instance I don't think the majority of Christians would agree with the Baptist's condemnation of gays and picketing of funerals. At least I really hope not.

Ironic, that's what the disciples did.



I survived the Apocalyps3

hatmoza on 28 September 2010

They have morals, respect isn't one of them.



I am the black sheep     "of course I'm crazy, but that doesn't mean I'm wrong."-Robert Anton Wilson

kowhoho on 28 September 2010
hatmoza said:

They have morals, respect isn't one of them.

Some justification would be wonderful.



I survived the Apocalyps3

Mummelmann on 28 September 2010
hatmoza said:

They have morals, respect isn't one of them.


Are you saying that people of faith are more respecful than those who lack faith? I can certainly attest to the opposite in my life and my country. Respect has nothing to do with religion, respect is taught in the home and depends more on social norm and skills, pedagogue content in the upbringing and overall relation to the world around you and/or different factions and people.



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hatmoza on 28 September 2010
kowhoho said:
hatmoza said:

They have morals, respect isn't one of them.

Some justification would be wonderful.


Just the way they/you :P talk down to people. For example, I have one or two friends who are atheist, and they always try to make the point that they are smarter and more logical than people who believe in "God".

I know I'm probably generalizing but I'm sorry if it seems that way to me. if they're not online flaming, provoking or spewing utter nonsense about other religions, they're trying to make the case that they are smarter than everyone one else because they believe in what they believe in. Which honestly, makes me sick.

 Everyone has morals to a degree. When you start isolating certain characteristics, you start to see the good and bad of all religions/beliefs.

"My most recent faith struggle is not one of intellect. I don't really do that anymore. Sooner or later you just figure out there are some guys who don't believe in God and they can prove He doesn't exist, and some other guys who do believe in God and they can prove He does exist, and the argument stopped being about God a long time ago and now it's about who is smarter, and honestly I don't care." -Donald Miller



I am the black sheep     "of course I'm crazy, but that doesn't mean I'm wrong."-Robert Anton Wilson

hatmoza on 28 September 2010
Mummelmann said:
hatmoza said:

They have morals, respect isn't one of them.


Are you saying that people of faith are more respecful than those who lack faith? I can certainly attest to the opposite in my life and my country. Respect has nothing to do with religion, respect is taught in the home and depends more on social norm and skills, pedagogue content in the upbringing and overall relation to the world around you and/or different factions and people.


yes. Especially the one's who grew up religious, and became atheist later in life. At least from what I experienced, they just have a certain hate towards all religions.

I know I'm stepping on toes because a lot of active VGC members are atheist, but that's just the way I see it. And I'm sorry.



I am the black sheep     "of course I'm crazy, but that doesn't mean I'm wrong."-Robert Anton Wilson

kowhoho on 28 September 2010
hatmoza said:
kowhoho said:
hatmoza said:

They have morals, respect isn't one of them.

Some justification would be wonderful.


Just the way they/you :P talk down to people. For example, I have one or two friends who are atheist, and they always try to make the point that they are smarter and more logical than people who believe in "God".

I know I'm probably generalizing but I'm sorry if it seems that way to me. if they're not online flaming, provoking or spewing utter nonsense about other religions, they're trying to make the case that they are smarter than everyone one else because they believe in what they believe in. Which honestly, makes me sick.

 Everyone has morals to a degree. When you start isolating certain characteristics, you start to see the good and bad of all religions/beliefs.

"My most recent faith struggle is not one of intellect. I don't really do that anymore. Sooner or later you just figure out there are some guys who don't believe in God and they can prove He doesn't exist, and some other guys who do believe in God and they can prove He does exist, and the argument stopped being about God a long time ago and now it's about who is smarter, and honestly I don't care." -Donald Miller

Whether or not you agree with my position or the way I support it has no bearing on my morality. If you think the things I say are inflammatory that's your problem. When I try to change the way others think (or at the very least provide a perspective different from theirs) I do it because I believe I am right. If I'm not right, it still isn't a big deal because we will all answer to the same truth in the end but I'd rather people were able to come to their own conclusion after seeing both sides. To be frank, your generalizations make me sick.

Just because I argue a point against someone else (since I believe they are wrong) doesn't make me condescending. I have a feeling that when you see your friends agreeing with one another (and perhaps getting caught up in that excitement), you get the feeling that they think they are "better" than other people. First of all, the thought of one human being superior or of greater worth than another human is ludicrous. They're probably just a bit puffed up after escaping what they believe to be a flawed system.

I don't think you are able to quanitfy morality in the first place. Morality is largely a subjective entity and can't be entirely defined. This is why I am bothered when people say that they are "more moral" than others.



I survived the Apocalyps3

highwaystar101 on 28 September 2010
hatmoza said:
kowhoho said:
hatmoza said:

They have morals, respect isn't one of them.

Some justification would be wonderful.


Just the way they/you :P talk down to people. For example, I have one or two friends who are atheist, and they always try to make the point that they are smarter and more logical than people who believe in "God".

I know I'm probably generalizing but I'm sorry if it seems that way to me. if they're not online flaming, provoking or spewing utter nonsense about other religions, they're trying to make the case that they are smarter than everyone one else because they believe in what they believe in. Which honestly, makes me sick.

 Everyone has morals to a degree. When you start isolating certain characteristics, you start to see the good and bad of all religions/beliefs.

"My most recent faith struggle is not one of intellect. I don't really do that anymore. Sooner or later you just figure out there are some guys who don't believe in God and they can prove He doesn't exist, and some other guys who do believe in God and they can prove He does exist, and the argument stopped being about God a long time ago and now it's about who is smarter, and honestly I don't care." -Donald Miller

Oh. I'm sorry you feel that way towards atheists. I know personally that in the science threads I can be a bit pushy, I'll try and tone it down in the future as a personal effort. 



hatmoza on 28 September 2010
highwaystar101 said:
hatmoza said:
kowhoho said:
hatmoza said:

They have morals, respect isn't one of them.

Some justification would be wonderful.


Just the way they/you :P talk down to people. For example, I have one or two friends who are atheist, and they always try to make the point that they are smarter and more logical than people who believe in "God".

I know I'm probably generalizing but I'm sorry if it seems that way to me. if they're not online flaming, provoking or spewing utter nonsense about other religions, they're trying to make the case that they are smarter than everyone one else because they believe in what they believe in. Which honestly, makes me sick.

 Everyone has morals to a degree. When you start isolating certain characteristics, you start to see the good and bad of all religions/beliefs.

"My most recent faith struggle is not one of intellect. I don't really do that anymore. Sooner or later you just figure out there are some guys who don't believe in God and they can prove He doesn't exist, and some other guys who do believe in God and they can prove He does exist, and the argument stopped being about God a long time ago and now it's about who is smarter, and honestly I don't care." -Donald Miller

Oh. I'm sorry you feel that way towards atheists. I know personally that in the science threads I can be a bit pushy, I'll try and tone it down in the future. 

You actually make the better arguments, and I swear (to God XD) I wasn't even thinking of you when I wrote that!



I am the black sheep     "of course I'm crazy, but that doesn't mean I'm wrong."-Robert Anton Wilson