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Forums - Gaming Discussion - Reselling used games illegal? Maybe...

Rreminds me of this

Anybody remember that one? lol



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That's OK because on E-bay (called Trademe here) I'll be selling a game case, game manual and a Blu-ray disk, and I'll throw in the game for free.

Also I'm not the end user, I'm the intermediate user. The person I sell the game to after I'm done with it is the end user.

You realise the RDR EULA basically makes it illegal for you to lend the game to a friend, or give it away. And if the AutoCAD decision is taken to its extreme you can't even buy it as a gift for someone. "...otherwise transfer the software, ..., without the express consent of the licensor." The EULA is basically so unenforceable as to render it void.

If you buy it you have to use it or throw it away.

There's simply know way the full implications of that decision were thought through. If it's not overturned in the USA it'll certainly never get anywhere close to being made case law in any other civilised judiciary.




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noname2200 said:
theRepublic said:
noname2200 said:

It's the Ninth Circuit, so it's quite possible.  This decision certainly flies in the face of long-standing precedent regarding adhesion contracts, anyways.

The Western Washington court's decision upheld the idea that customers own the software they purchase, commonly referred to as the "You bought it, you own it" principle. The Appeal Court's decision, however, undermines that idea if the software has "license only" language in its EULA.

I assume you mean the second sentence right?


In a broader sense, yeah.  I won't bore you with the details, but in essence courts tend to look to mass-produced contracts (like EULAs) and realize that the bargaining power between consumers and corporations are so uneven that letting the latter force some terms on the former isn't exactly great policy.  That doesn't mean they're always invalid, but many of the most restrictive terms in software EULAs tend to be struck down. 

I've browsed through the opinion, and while I concede that it meets a very narrow reading of the letter of the law, the panel has had to do some major dancing to fit their opinion into precedent. It also assumes Congress employed a level of attention to detail that any American over the age of six knows to be laughable.

Moreover, there's something else that's utterly bizzare in the 9th's current decision:  no one reads a EULA until after they've purchased the product.  In fact, I don't think you can access the EULA until then (the defendant here certainly could not).  How, then, the Ninth believes that a contract term which one of the parties could not have been aware of at the time the contract was formed might be binding upon that party is, simply, mind-boggling.  That point wasn't even addressed in the opinion.

I'm thinking that the case just drew a poor panel, and that it'll be reversed when it's reviewed en banc or, failing that, at the Supreme Court.  It's already created a circuit split, and it's a big economic issue, so if it's appealled I'm pretty sure it'll be heard.

Khuutra said:

What're you, some kinda law student?


No sir, I'm all graduated 'n stuff now.

.jayderyu said:

Corporate money speaks louder than rights. If your sign you soul away. It's sold. In America anyways.

A. EULA will take out the "sell" clause.
or
B. You won't be buying used games from bigger stores anymore.

Neither of these apply here, actually:  the EULA actually had a "license" clause (the opposite of a sale clause) and the defendant bought the software at a garage sale and sold it on eBay: no retailers were ever involved.  Even scarier, huh?

Well, now that's all cleared up. You deserve a highfive my good man. *highfive*



miz1q2w3e said:

Rreminds me of this

Anybody remember that one? lol


ROTFL, I suspect Pope Ratzinger bought something from them without reading terms and conditions!   



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noname2200 said:
theRepublic said:
noname2200 said:

It's the Ninth Circuit, so it's quite possible.  This decision certainly flies in the face of long-standing precedent regarding adhesion contracts, anyways.

The Western Washington court's decision upheld the idea that customers own the software they purchase, commonly referred to as the "You bought it, you own it" principle. The Appeal Court's decision, however, undermines that idea if the software has "license only" language in its EULA.

I assume you mean the second sentence right?

In a broader sense, yeah.  I won't bore you with the details, but in essence courts tend to look to mass-produced contracts (like EULAs) and realize that the bargaining power between consumers and corporations are so uneven that letting the latter force some terms on the former isn't exactly great policy.  That doesn't mean they're always invalid, but many of the most restrictive terms in software EULAs tend to be struck down. 

I've browsed through the opinion, and while I concede that it meets a very narrow reading of the letter of the law, the panel has had to do some major dancing to fit their opinion into precedent. It also assumes Congress employed a level of attention to detail that any American over the age of six knows to be laughable.

Moreover, there's something else that's utterly bizzare in the 9th's current decision:  no one reads a EULA until after they've purchased the product.  In fact, I don't think you can access the EULA until then (the defendant here certainly could not).  How, then, the Ninth believes that a contract term which one of the parties could not have been aware of at the time the contract was formed might be binding upon that party is, simply, mind-boggling.  That point wasn't even addressed in the opinion.

I'm thinking that the case just drew a poor panel, and that it'll be reversed when it's reviewed en banc or, failing that, at the Supreme Court.  It's already created a circuit split, and it's a big economic issue, so if it's appealled I'm pretty sure it'll be heard.

Ok, so the "you bought it, you own it" principle they got right.  But the way they gave EULA contracts power to undermine that would possibly get turned over.  Yes?



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They need to SHARE. Either party being greedy will be no good for the other, developers are suffering, game stores are reaping the rewards. If used sales went out the window, I don't think many game stores would survive. Maybe a 40/60% profit to Dev/Store would help ...



 

Seece said:

They need to SHARE. Either party being greedy will be no good for the other, developers are suffering, game stores are reaping the rewards. If used sales went out the window, I don't think many game stores would survive. Maybe a 40/60% profit to Dev/Store would help ...

No other used market I can think of gives money to the original producers.  If the devs or publishers are suffering, it is their own fault.



Switch Code: SW-7377-9189-3397 -- Nintendo Network ID: theRepublic -- Steam ID: theRepublic

Now Playing
Switch - Super Mario Maker 2 (2019)
Switch - The Legend of Zelda: Link's Awakening (2019)
Switch - Bastion (2011/2018)
3DS - Star Fox 64 3D (2011)
3DS - Phoenix Wright: Ace Attorney (Trilogy) (2005/2014)
Wii U - Darksiders: Warmastered Edition (2010/2017)
Mobile - The Simpson's Tapped Out and Yugioh Duel Links
PC - Deep Rock Galactic (2020)

Never going to happen, I don't even know how Autodesk slippped that one buy.



miz1q2w3e said:

Rreminds me of this

Anybody remember that one? lol


What a great April Fools gag.



theRepublic said:

Ok, so the "you bought it, you own it" principle they got right.  But the way they gave EULA contracts power to undermine that would possibly get turned over.  Yes?

It's simplifying, but that's about right. In essence, the panel said that "a license to use software is different from a sale of that software," which is irrefutable.  The issue is likely going to be "well then, what restrictions can you put on a consumer's ability to alienate his license?"