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Forums - Gaming Discussion - Why are people so threatened by the Wii?

Lingyis on 06 April 2007

the AI is not a valid argument.  generally speaking, let's say there's a performance difference of 10 times between ps3 and wii, that doesn't not translate into "10 times better AI that you can perceive".  good AI requires clever programming and not brute force.  it's prohibitively likely you can't at all tell difference in AI given the same code for the ps3 and the wii.

now, i'm not in the gaming industry, but i'll say better AI really does mean hiring programmers who actually know AI well.  i know a lot of programmers and most of them have little knowledge of AI.  i know one specialized AI programmer but i gather that they get paid a bit more and don't work for gaming companies.

i don't think we're at the age of good AI yet--it's "current research" and doesn't seem to be ready for prime time.  give or take another 20 years.

the Wii is an epidemic.

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Avinash_Tyagi on 06 April 2007
PS360N64PSXBOX said:
Avinash_Tyagi said:
PS360N64PSXBOX said:
Avinash_Tyagi said:
PS360N64PSXBOX said:
Avinash_Tyagi said:
PS360N64PSXBOX said:
Avinash_Tyagi said:
Kwaad said:
Because the Wii is going the wrong way for the games I like. PS2 games will do fine for my low budget, low graphics games. I dont need another console.

 The only thing that limits Wii games is the developers themselves, the Wii is more capable than an Xbox


 

Nice try Avinash. Xbox was LAST GEN, try comparing the Wii to the 360 and PS3 and see what you get. Won't be pretty. The thing that limits wii games is the lack of power the system has, more so compared to the 360 and PS3. And this hatred comes from an ex-nintendo fan who owned every nintendo consoles since the first nes.


 And yet the gameplay on the PS3 and 360 is still the same as last gen, only with shinier graphics.

Gameplay is not limited by the Wii's hardware, you can create the same games on the Wii, 

just forego all the shiny graphics 


 

How do you know that? And better yet what was wrong with it? Gameplay is limited on the Wii due to the lack if buttons so a lot of game don't benefit from the MD controller. Even people who like the Wii admitt that!

Shiner graphics? Maybe you should look at the specs of the systems and learn what game makers use them for and then you can see why the PS3 and 360 offer more potential and less limits than the Wii..Look at their better online and the PS3's sixaxis controller, then when you come from a well educated area then you will see how wrong you are.

 

And your no shiny graphics comments proves you like shitty looking games and your lack of knowledge of the industry in general. There is more to the PS3 and 360 than shiny graphics, which is NOT a bad thing. I suggest you figure out what that is than post again.


 Sorry no, the lack of buttons is not an issue any game that is doable on another console's controller is doeable on the Wii.

 

Show me where the added specs have changed the gameplay, its still the same games just better looking,  you can say I don't know but you haven't shown any proof to back up your argument, where has the gameplay changed in a way that wasn't doable last gen


 

*cough* Sixaxis controller....*cough* more power means they can do more with the games that they couldn't last gen. *cough* Gears of war and others couldn't be made last gen due to memory limitations and slow CPU's. Again, learn about the specs first, then talk.

 

Sorry yes! If not prove it! Prove to me that its not an issue instead of saying it.


 Actually Rein even said the main reason they don't want to use the Wii for Unreal engine three is the shader archtecture, not because the gameplay is affected, but just because it won't look as pretty.

 

Also if your best argument about controls is to compare the Wiimote to the Sixaxis 

then you really have no Idea what you're talking about 


 

Just what I thought, you are totally clueless. I got what I expected from you, NOTHING! I suggested you do your homework and learn about these things and instead you attacked me...Good work. You know nothing. I am done with you, move along little fanboy.


 lol, If your best retort is to call me clueless then its pretty apparant that you have no actual argument



 

Predictions:Sales of Wii Fit will surpass the combined sales of the Grand Theft Auto franchiseLifetime sales of Wii will surpass the combined sales of the entire Playstation family of consoles by 12/31/2015 Wii hardware sales will surpass the total hardware sales of the PS2 by 12/31/2010 Wii will have 50% marketshare or more by the end of 2008 (I was wrong!!  It was a little over 48% only)Wii will surpass 45 Million in lifetime sales by the end of 2008 (I was wrong!!  Nintendo Financials showed it fell slightly short of 45 million shipped by end of 2008)Wii will surpass 80 Million in lifetime sales by the end of 2009 (I was wrong!! Wii didn't even get to 70 Million)

PS360N64PSXBOX on 06 April 2007
Avinash_Tyagi said:
PS360N64PSXBOX said:
Avinash_Tyagi said:
PS360N64PSXBOX said:
Avinash_Tyagi said:
PS360N64PSXBOX said:
Avinash_Tyagi said:
PS360N64PSXBOX said:
Avinash_Tyagi said:
Kwaad said:
Because the Wii is going the wrong way for the games I like. PS2 games will do fine for my low budget, low graphics games. I dont need another console.

 The only thing that limits Wii games is the developers themselves, the Wii is more capable than an Xbox


 

Nice try Avinash. Xbox was LAST GEN, try comparing the Wii to the 360 and PS3 and see what you get. Won't be pretty. The thing that limits wii games is the lack of power the system has, more so compared to the 360 and PS3. And this hatred comes from an ex-nintendo fan who owned every nintendo consoles since the first nes.


 And yet the gameplay on the PS3 and 360 is still the same as last gen, only with shinier graphics.

Gameplay is not limited by the Wii's hardware, you can create the same games on the Wii, 

just forego all the shiny graphics 


 

How do you know that? And better yet what was wrong with it? Gameplay is limited on the Wii due to the lack if buttons so a lot of game don't benefit from the MD controller. Even people who like the Wii admitt that!

Shiner graphics? Maybe you should look at the specs of the systems and learn what game makers use them for and then you can see why the PS3 and 360 offer more potential and less limits than the Wii..Look at their better online and the PS3's sixaxis controller, then when you come from a well educated area then you will see how wrong you are.

 

And your no shiny graphics comments proves you like shitty looking games and your lack of knowledge of the industry in general. There is more to the PS3 and 360 than shiny graphics, which is NOT a bad thing. I suggest you figure out what that is than post again.


 Sorry no, the lack of buttons is not an issue any game that is doable on another console's controller is doeable on the Wii.

 

Show me where the added specs have changed the gameplay, its still the same games just better looking,  you can say I don't know but you haven't shown any proof to back up your argument, where has the gameplay changed in a way that wasn't doable last gen


 

*cough* Sixaxis controller....*cough* more power means they can do more with the games that they couldn't last gen. *cough* Gears of war and others couldn't be made last gen due to memory limitations and slow CPU's. Again, learn about the specs first, then talk.

 

Sorry yes! If not prove it! Prove to me that its not an issue instead of saying it.


 Actually Rein even said the main reason they don't want to use the Wii for Unreal engine three is the shader archtecture, not because the gameplay is affected, but just because it won't look as pretty.

 

Also if your best argument about controls is to compare the Wiimote to the Sixaxis 

then you really have no Idea what you're talking about 


 

Just what I thought, you are totally clueless. I got what I expected from you, NOTHING! I suggested you do your homework and learn about these things and instead you attacked me...Good work. You know nothing. I am done with you, move along little fanboy.


 lol, If your best retort is to call me clueless then its pretty apparant that you have no actual argument


 

LOL! You're funny. Do you even read what people post? You can read right? Oh well....Moving along and letting sleeping trolls lie.

 

Back on topic away from fanboys. AI can be improved quite a bit without increasing power a large degree. I have played games on N64 that had better AI then ones on PS2....But a little extra power never hurt anything. ;)



Predicting the Future - 360 Will get to 11 Million in the USA this year!!

Predicting the Future - Wii will NOT win this gen in America!!


Prediciting the Future - The PS3 will pass the Wii by 2009!!

vanguardian1 on 06 April 2007

A little power can hurt if it adds too much to the price, IMHO.



Nobody is crazy enough to accuse me of being sane.

PS360N64PSXBOX on 07 April 2007
vanguardian1 said:
A little power can hurt if it adds too much to the price, IMHO.

 

Gameplay wise it never has..price wise...That doesn't bother me, I understand why it goes and will be patient as I know over time those prices will always drop off enough so anyone can buy it. I just think they should make the systems upgradable and have them last longer than 6 years, maybe 10 to 15 so people can buy them later at a smaller price and still have games come out for years.



Predicting the Future - 360 Will get to 11 Million in the USA this year!!

Predicting the Future - Wii will NOT win this gen in America!!


Prediciting the Future - The PS3 will pass the Wii by 2009!!

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staticneuron on 07 April 2007

Avinash_Tyagi said:

Like? Sorry but I have yet to see anything that indicates that it cannot be done on a last gen console

 

Take for example , when you are leading survivors through the hordes of zombies (which I don't see being done on previous gen consoles) in dead rising, leave thhem to fend for themselves and you will see thatthey are pretty smart... god forbid you give them a gun and the get bogged down by zombies.

Or the AI in gears..... I haven come across AI that smart before. The same would have to go for the enemies in rainbow six. Some come across as stupid until you run into the professionals. I could not help but get impressed at the hostage scenarios and the planning it took to get through alot of areas. As a gamer I can assure there aren't that many games that cause you to plan like that. On previous gen consoles enemy AI had very noticable limitations. The physics of motorstorm plays an integral role in the races...Most of that game would have to be simulated on a previous gen console and I would doubt that it would be as impressive. And just the spped and reaction of DOA4 and VF5. I pretty much am convinced that the reasons the previous iterations were so slow was because of the limitations of the console.

There are going to be more examples of games improving over time. I mean seriously compare the AI from goldeneye to that of halo 2 or MGS2.... I assure you it is more about power of the system than developer talent. 


 



Games make me happy! PSN ID: Staticneuron Gamertag: Staticneuron Wii Code: Static Wii - 3055 0871 5802 1723

staticneuron on 07 April 2007
Lingyis said:

the AI is not a valid argument. generally speaking, let's say there's a performance difference of 10 times between ps3 and wii, that doesn't not translate into "10 times better AI that you can perceive". good AI requires clever programming and not brute force. it's prohibitively likely you can't at all tell difference in AI given the same code for the ps3 and the wii.

now, i'm not in the gaming industry, but i'll say better AI really does mean hiring programmers who actually know AI well. i know a lot of programmers and most of them have little knowledge of AI. i know one specialized AI programmer but i gather that they get paid a bit more and don't work for gaming companies.

i don't think we're at the age of good AI yet--it's "current research" and doesn't seem to be ready for prime time. give or take another 20 years.

 Given the branch prediction of the 360 3 PPU's and the branch hint instructions spread across the cell I would beg to differ. And I am not just talking about preprogrammed enemy movement based off of set conditions I am talking about the AI making choices and reacting to you as a user....... even if you do something completely unpredictable and/or stupid.



Games make me happy! PSN ID: Staticneuron Gamertag: Staticneuron Wii Code: Static Wii - 3055 0871 5802 1723

Kwaad on 07 April 2007

You say You cant brute-force AI? Your right. You have to finess it. However ***SUPER*** advanced AI, is just as easy to make as Stupidass AI. The only diffrence is one requires a 8mhz computer, while the other requires a super computer running at 250terraflops.

AI is very imporant, and it is VERY power intensive.

Graphics dont matter so much to me. Why? I think God of War was a better game than Resistance. OMG A SONY FAN WHO THINKS GRAPHICS ISNT GOD?!?!

I think God of War is probibally the best platformer I've ever played. I want God of War3. Not mario. (sorry mario, I wanted you 6 months ago before I ever played god of war)

 However god of war on the PS3 could likely have things like this.

1. accurate damage on targets, so if you slice them in the arm, it falls off, and their AI has them move it to the other hand, you chop off a leg, and it will hobble and possibly fall from time to time, or even limp on a spear.

2. CG quality graphics. We all go to the movies to watch a story. Why cant I play a story that looks just as good?  If bad graphics means a great game... That is usually not the case.

I'm doing something else, and I'm gonna post this becuase I'm too tired to write more. 



PSN ID: Kwaad


I fly this flag in victory!

vanguardian1 on 07 April 2007

I've always been more frustrated with AI cheating than AI skills, I guess it's because I usually tear apart the AI's methods and figure out how to make it easy. :-/

 

So essentially I guess I can say I've never been overly impressed with an A.I. in any game so far. 



Nobody is crazy enough to accuse me of being sane.

Kwaad on 07 April 2007
vanguardian1 said:

I've always been more frustrated with AI cheating than AI skills, I guess it's because I usually tear apart the AI's methods and figure out how to make it easy. :-/

 

So essentially I guess I can say I've never been overly impressed with an A.I. in any game so far.


 Just becuase I can.

That is stupid AI. Stupid AI cheats.

Wii = stupid AI

Smart AI... is smarter than you. Smart AI cant be beaten. (unless your godly)

PS3 = smart AI

 

(I'm sorry but I love AI stuff, and I choke out my computer sometimes. (I can run oblivion at 1080p with everything on without hiccups or anything) 

It takes one HELL of a CPU to do smart AI. 



PSN ID: Kwaad


I fly this flag in victory!