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Forums - Gaming Discussion - Female protagonist? What do you think?

Weegee on 17 July 2010
pearljammer said:
Weegee said:
pearljammer said:

Yikes, what happened to this thread?


Itagaki and I were frustated because they are more strong guy than girl in FE and that inteligent systeme keep making gender diference in fire emblem and it's sexist. Two guy was saying that it's normal and not sexist because in real life, it's like this. But Itagaki and I was saying that in a Fictional world with MAGIC , we must forget about real life laws and the developper must create the more equal game possible.

How are you ?

I admit, I haven't read most of it. Just enough to noticed that it had become page after page of discussion on Fire Emblem.

How are gender differences sexist? That's absurd. There are plenty of differences between genders; acknowledging them is far from sexist.

Perhaps you mean their capabilities? Hell, in all of the FE games that I've played there have been plenty of useful, empowered, strong female characters; and there has been plenty of male characters who fit that description. Are there just as many powerful females are there are males and do their collective importance equal that of the males... I have no damn idea. It really doesn't matter. Going by that standard, every piece of media ever created is likely sexist.

I really, really don't understand. Females in FE are not typified as helpless, weak, dependent, useless or anything of the sort. They have plenty of strengths, albeit sometimes different, but no less important (or useful), like the males. I think you're misusing the word 'sexism.'

As I said, I haven't read everything, so I may be misjudging what you're saying. Let me know if I am.


No gender diference is not sexist I know but fire emblem the ratio of strong male is not equal (they are more guy than girl so more strong guy than girl). The programmer could avoid this by making simply more girl in the game but they did not do it and they put diference gender in a world where magic broke all we know (If the developper always make girl with less str , hp and def that become a stereotype and not a good one).  When a stereotype in negative it became sexism if it aplies to all guy or girl (in fire emblem it aplie to girl) Also another stereotype from Fire emblem is girl have always need protection , often lost hope (and need suport) and have rarely leadership. This is again again a bad stereotype and again it's almost always apply to girl and don't forget that if you make a bad streotype toward a group , it's become discrimination and if it's toward the guy or girl , it's become sexism.



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Patapon 3 , Elite beat Agent 2 , ROTK 12 , Mother 4, Legend of legaia      3, Resident Evil outbreak 3.

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Khuutra on 17 July 2010
I_hate_Itagaki said:
Khuutra said:

Looks like I'm bad at staying away.

Differences and discrimination are not the same thing. Fire Emblem is chalk full of perfectly strong, fully realized, sexually confident men and women and has some of the most even-handed representations of all genders. Your original point was that women were weaker, which is to say they were worse in a fight and have less utility. That's verifiably false. You've tried to claim that women in Fire Emblem are all stereotyped in the Japanese way (which is to say weak and dependent) and that's both wrong and mildly racist.

Demanding perfect gender equality is not how you fight sexism. Trying to deny certain inherent differences between the sexes is its own special kind of sexism because it implies that there is a certain default mindset that should be portrayed for everyone - and it's predominantly male.

And for the record, yes, there is at least one case off the top of my head where a woman protects a man in Fire Emblem: Louise is the one who guards her husband Pent, in spite of him being an extremely powerful mage.

@Mr Khan:

I agree with point 3 in principle, but there are (very large) schools of critical analysis that reject authorial intent altogether and look at a work in a vacuum.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pDlcyio0QC4&feature=related

Have we gotten to the point where you're not willing to mount an argument anymore? Why not? I want to get to the root of why you think gender representation has to be not equal but identical in order to avoid sexism. As someone who takes gender relations and depictions in media fairly serious, the idea seems counterproductive, especially since identical representation results in everyone being either men or men who have boobs.



Weegee on 17 July 2010
Khuutra said:
Weegee said:
pearljammer said:

 

Looks like I'm bad at staying away.

Differences and discrimination are not the same thing. Fire Emblem is chalk full of perfectly strong, fully realized, sexually confident men and women and has some of the most even-handed representations of all genders. Your original point was that women were weaker, which is to say they were worse in a fight and have less utility. That's verifiably false. You've tried to claim that women in Fire Emblem are all stereotyped in the Japanese way (which is to say weak and dependent) and that's both wrong and mildly racist.

Demanding perfect gender equality is not how you fight sexism. Trying to deny certain inherent differences between the sexes is its own special kind of sexism because it implies that there is a certain default mindset that should be portrayed for everyone - and it's predominantly male.

And for the record, yes, there is at least one case off the top of my head where a woman protects a man in Fire Emblem: Louise is the one who guards her husband Pent, in spite of him being an extremely powerful mage.


Wow you have ONE exemple and it's a guy who 'need' protection. Yeah we never see him protected by his bodyguard and he go alone in a desert and beat everyone. Really Good exemple.



           Sequel I want the most :

Patapon 3 , Elite beat Agent 2 , ROTK 12 , Mother 4, Legend of legaia      3, Resident Evil outbreak 3.

Favorite Youtube poop        McDonnald                 Morshu              

                                                  

Khuutra on 17 July 2010
Weegee said:
Khuutra said:

Looks like I'm bad at staying away.

Differences and discrimination are not the same thing. Fire Emblem is chalk full of perfectly strong, fully realized, sexually confident men and women and has some of the most even-handed representations of all genders. Your original point was that women were weaker, which is to say they were worse in a fight and have less utility. That's verifiably false. You've tried to claim that women in Fire Emblem are all stereotyped in the Japanese way (which is to say weak and dependent) and that's both wrong and mildly racist.

Demanding perfect gender equality is not how you fight sexism. Trying to deny certain inherent differences between the sexes is its own special kind of sexism because it implies that there is a certain default mindset that should be portrayed for everyone - and it's predominantly male.

And for the record, yes, there is at least one case off the top of my head where a woman protects a man in Fire Emblem: Louise is the one who guards her husband Pent, in spite of him being an extremely powerful mage.

Wow you have ONE exemple and it's a guy who 'need' protection. Yeah we never see him protected by his bodyguard and he go alone in a desert and beat everyone. Really Good exemple.

Ignoring the rest of my post is not a proper dismissal of those arguments; I would like them to be addressed.

Isadora protects Eliwood, and later Kent. Lyndis herself protects the player in the beginning.  Rebecca is very protective of Dart. Priscilla is on a quest to save Raven. Louise protects Pent. Karla can be protective of Butz.

That's only from FE7.

Women in Fire Emblem are not weak and in need of support and protection. You are certifiably, verifiably, objectively wrong. You are saying things that are wrong, period.

Kindly address the rest of my previous post.



Weegee on 17 July 2010
Khuutra said:
I_hate_Itagaki said:
Khuutra said:

Looks like I'm bad at staying away.

Differences and discrimination are not the same thing. Fire Emblem is chalk full of perfectly strong, fully realized, sexually confident men and women and has some of the most even-handed representations of all genders. Your original point was that women were weaker, which is to say they were worse in a fight and have less utility. That's verifiably false. You've tried to claim that women in Fire Emblem are all stereotyped in the Japanese way (which is to say weak and dependent) and that's both wrong and mildly racist.

Demanding perfect gender equality is not how you fight sexism. Trying to deny certain inherent differences between the sexes is its own special kind of sexism because it implies that there is a certain default mindset that should be portrayed for everyone - and it's predominantly male.

And for the record, yes, there is at least one case off the top of my head where a woman protects a man in Fire Emblem: Louise is the one who guards her husband Pent, in spite of him being an extremely powerful mage.

@Mr Khan:

I agree with point 3 in principle, but there are (very large) schools of critical analysis that reject authorial intent altogether and look at a work in a vacuum.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pDlcyio0QC4&feature=related

Have we gotten to the point where you're not willing to mount an argument anymore? Why not? I want to get to the root of why you think gender representation has to be not equal but identical in order to avoid sexism. As someone who takes gender relations and depictions in media fairly serious, the idea seems counterproductive, especially since identical representation results in everyone being either men or men who have boobs.

He does not want everyone to be perfectly identical, he just want to see simply 50/50 in the party and he want to the developer to stop putting diference in gender in a world where there are Magic & Dragon. I know in real life that there are diference but we are not in the real life and the fighter are not ramdom dude or dudess.

If you play D&D and your DM say 'Oh you can't put 18 in STR , just guy can put 18 here' would you be angry ?

I will said this is stupid and sexism and he would say 'But in real life...' WE NOT IN REAL LIFE!

Did you notice that japanese developper always want to make a diference between gender but american just don't care?



           Sequel I want the most :

Patapon 3 , Elite beat Agent 2 , ROTK 12 , Mother 4, Legend of legaia      3, Resident Evil outbreak 3.

Favorite Youtube poop        McDonnald                 Morshu              

                                                  

Around the Network
I_hate_Itagaki on 17 July 2010
Khuutra said:
I_hate_Itagaki said:
Khuutra said:

Looks like I'm bad at staying away.

Differences and discrimination are not the same thing. Fire Emblem is chalk full of perfectly strong, fully realized, sexually confident men and women and has some of the most even-handed representations of all genders. Your original point was that women were weaker, which is to say they were worse in a fight and have less utility. That's verifiably false. You've tried to claim that women in Fire Emblem are all stereotyped in the Japanese way (which is to say weak and dependent) and that's both wrong and mildly racist.

Demanding perfect gender equality is not how you fight sexism. Trying to deny certain inherent differences between the sexes is its own special kind of sexism because it implies that there is a certain default mindset that should be portrayed for everyone - and it's predominantly male.

And for the record, yes, there is at least one case off the top of my head where a woman protects a man in Fire Emblem: Louise is the one who guards her husband Pent, in spite of him being an extremely powerful mage.

@Mr Khan:

I agree with point 3 in principle, but there are (very large) schools of critical analysis that reject authorial intent altogether and look at a work in a vacuum.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pDlcyio0QC4&feature=related

Have we gotten to the point where you're not willing to mount an argument anymore? Why not? I want to get to the root of why you think gender representation has to be not equal but identical in order to avoid sexism. As someone who takes gender relations and depictions in media fairly serious, the idea seems counterproductive, especially since identical representation results in everyone being either men or men who have boobs.

I don't care. Arguing with you is pointless. It's like talking to a wall. Identical? Well in a world with dragons and magic, that would be nice. You know, a girl fighting with a sword with equal strength as her male counterpart (Dont forget the magic world). It would be illogical? Think twice. Fallout devellopers didnt even put differences between sexes in a realistic world. Also, the part about men with boobs is just stupid, it's a game man, a game!



Khuutra on 17 July 2010
Weegee said:

He does not want everyone to be perfectly identical, he just want to see simply 50/50 in the party and he want to the developer to stop putting diference in gender in a world where there are Magic & Dragon. I know in real life that there are diference but we are not in the real life and the fighter are not ramdom dude or dudess.

If you play D&D and your DM say 'Oh you can't put 18 in STR , just guy can put 18 here' would you be angry ?

I will said this is stupid and sexism and he would say 'But in real life...' WE NOT IN REAL LIFE!

Did you notice that japanese developper always want to make a diference between gender but american just don't care?

You realize this argument doesn't hold up when the people who actually use magic have equal strength between men and women, right? The introduction of magic does not automatically preclude gameplay differences between genders, especially when it means (in about half of all situations) women are more useful than men.

Differences are not discrimination.

Differences are not discrimination.

And you are, again, stereotyping Japanese developers. That's mildly racist.



Khuutra on 17 July 2010
I_hate_Itagaki said:
Khuutra said:

Have we gotten to the point where you're not willing to mount an argument anymore? Why not? I want to get to the root of why you think gender representation has to be not equal but identical in order to avoid sexism. As someone who takes gender relations and depictions in media fairly serious, the idea seems counterproductive, especially since identical representation results in everyone being either men or men who have boobs.

I don't care. Arguing with you is pointless. It's like talking to a wall. Identical? Well in a world with dragons and magic, that would be nice. You know, a girl fighting with a sword with equal strength as her male counterpart (Dont forget the magic world). It would be illogical? Think twice. Fallout devellopers didnt even put differences between sexes in a realistic world. Also, the part about men with boobs is just stupid, it's a game man, a game!

There are several other people in this topic you ocould reply to; you choose to reply to me, for whatever reason, so either you don't think arguing with me is pointless or you like beating your head against that world.

And no, identical portrayals between men and women is not progressive, not in a world that's based around a strategy game scenario. It's one thingn to take an individual and say "she's as strong as any man", that's fine - as said before, Mia is the best swordmaster in FE10 based on raw stats and stat growths and availability - but it's another entirely to say that all men and all women should be exactly alike. Trying to pretend that there are no differences between men and women is firstly narrowing the possibilities of what you can do in a strategy game and secondly it's disingenuous.

You are not being mindful of proper depictions of femininity. You are not behaving like a feminist. You're saying that the feminine perspective can safely be ignored, which is sexist in and of itself.



lestatdark on 17 July 2010
I_hate_Itagaki said:
Khuutra said:
I_hate_Itagaki said:
Khuutra said:

Looks like I'm bad at staying away.

Differences and discrimination are not the same thing. Fire Emblem is chalk full of perfectly strong, fully realized, sexually confident men and women and has some of the most even-handed representations of all genders. Your original point was that women were weaker, which is to say they were worse in a fight and have less utility. That's verifiably false. You've tried to claim that women in Fire Emblem are all stereotyped in the Japanese way (which is to say weak and dependent) and that's both wrong and mildly racist.

Demanding perfect gender equality is not how you fight sexism. Trying to deny certain inherent differences between the sexes is its own special kind of sexism because it implies that there is a certain default mindset that should be portrayed for everyone - and it's predominantly male.

And for the record, yes, there is at least one case off the top of my head where a woman protects a man in Fire Emblem: Louise is the one who guards her husband Pent, in spite of him being an extremely powerful mage.

@Mr Khan:

I agree with point 3 in principle, but there are (very large) schools of critical analysis that reject authorial intent altogether and look at a work in a vacuum.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pDlcyio0QC4&feature=related

Have we gotten to the point where you're not willing to mount an argument anymore? Why not? I want to get to the root of why you think gender representation has to be not equal but identical in order to avoid sexism. As someone who takes gender relations and depictions in media fairly serious, the idea seems counterproductive, especially since identical representation results in everyone being either men or men who have boobs.

I don't care. Arguing with you is pointless. It's like talking to a wall. Identical? Well in a world with dragons and magic, that would be nice. You know, a girl fighting with a sword with equal strength as her male counterpart (Dont forget the magic world). It would be illogical? Think twice. Fallout devellopers didnt even put differences between sexes in a realistic world. Also, the part about men with boobs is just stupid, it's a game man, a game!

Actually there a lot of cases in which this happens, even on japanese developed games. 

Dragon Quest IV Alena, Lufia II Selen, Final Fantasy XIII Fang, Final Fantasy IX Beatrice (which was way stronger than Steiner), Grandia II Tio. 

These are some of the cases in which a female character has equal, if not higher, strength and power equivalent to their male counterparts.



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I_hate_Itagaki on 17 July 2010
Khuutra said:
I_hate_Itagaki said:
Khuutra said:

Have we gotten to the point where you're not willing to mount an argument anymore? Why not? I want to get to the root of why you think gender representation has to be not equal but identical in order to avoid sexism. As someone who takes gender relations and depictions in media fairly serious, the idea seems counterproductive, especially since identical representation results in everyone being either men or men who have boobs.

I don't care. Arguing with you is pointless. It's like talking to a wall. Identical? Well in a world with dragons and magic, that would be nice. You know, a girl fighting with a sword with equal strength as her male counterpart (Dont forget the magic world). It would be illogical? Think twice. Fallout devellopers didnt even put differences between sexes in a realistic world. Also, the part about men with boobs is just stupid, it's a game man, a game!

There are several other people in this topic you ocould reply to; you choose to reply to me, for whatever reason, so either you don't think arguing with me is pointless or you like beating your head against that world.

And no, identical portrayals between men and women is not progressive, not in a world that's based around a strategy game scenario. It's one thingn to take an individual and say "she's as strong as any man", that's fine - as said before, Mia is the best swordmaster in FE10 based on raw stats and stat growths and availability - but it's another entirely to say that all men and all women should be exactly alike. Trying to pretend that there are no differences between men and women is firstly narrowing the possibilities of what you can do in a strategy game and secondly it's disingenuous.

You are not being mindful of proper depictions of femininity. You are not behaving like a feminist. You're saying that the feminine perspective can safely be ignored, which is sexist in and of itself.

You ignored arguments too. Like I said, you are just hearing yourself. The strategy? lolwut? You are just an angry FE fanboy. I loled at the last part.