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Forums - Gaming Discussion - Female protagonist? What do you think?

I_hate_Itagaki on 16 July 2010
Khuutra said:
Weegee said:

You don't care about the majority of fire emblem player (some of them is probably expert). You did not notice that they are more strong guy than girl (which is normal because they are more guy than girl literally which is again not equal). But a least you admit that guy have more strength and HP than girl and it's a bad sexism stereotype. Look Fire emblem is sexist simply because they must do 40 character and they do not have the time to developpe them so they put cliché and stereotype for the character. And Japanese stereotype are always sexism because girl need support and protection in the cliché story and Fire Emblem is not a Exeption.

Guys having more strength or HP is no sexism. Differences between genders does no equate to sexism. That is not what "sexism" means.

Your reasoning is flimsy. Multiple characters does not make a game sexist. Stereotypes does not make a game sexist. Your claim about Japanese portrayal of women is needlessly reductive, somewhat xenophobic, and culturally insensitive.

You do not have a point to make, about Fire Emblem or in general. You need to be more specific about sexist elements in a story or sexist elements in mechanics, and you have failed to do either.

What sexism means to you?

You failed too, you are just hearing yourself talking.



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lestatdark on 16 July 2010

Female protagonists, as long as they're well portrayed, with actual human similarities and their own intricacies are just as good as a well developed male protagonist. 

Some of my favourite protagonists, not only in games, but in films, are female protagonists, who exude an aura of self-esteem and ability to resolve problems, while still keeping human faucets that are intrinsic to natural human behavior. 

Aya Brea, Selen and Milennia are probably the best videogame protagonists (both female and male) ever created.

OT - I said it on another thread and I'll say it again. People nowadays have no grasp about what the actual meaning behind the word sexist really portrays. Which is an actual shame indeed, seeing how easy such a strong word is thrown around in here, with no actual direct reason as to use it. And it's also extremely funny how somehow, sexist seems to limit itself to a single gender bias against another. It works both ways.



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Khuutra on 16 July 2010
I_hate_Itagaki said:
Khuutra said:

Guys having more strength or HP is no sexism. Differences between genders does no equate to sexism. That is not what "sexism" means.

Your reasoning is flimsy. Multiple characters does not make a game sexist. Stereotypes does not make a game sexist. Your claim about Japanese portrayal of women is needlessly reductive, somewhat xenophobic, and culturally insensitive.

You do not have a point to make, about Fire Emblem or in general. You need to be more specific about sexist elements in a story or sexist elements in mechanics, and you have failed to do either.

What sexism means to you?

You failed too, you are just hearing yourself talking.

Sexism is discrimination based on gender. Acknowledging or highlighting differences between genders is not discrimination.

Sexism is "discrimination or devaluation based on a person's sex, as in restricted job opportunities; esp., such discrimination directed against women."

Fire Emblem does not do that. No one is made less valuable because they are female, nor is anyone made to play a secondary role because of their gender, nor is one gender displayed as being inferior to another.



I_hate_Itagaki on 16 July 2010
Khuutra said:
I_hate_Itagaki said:

Simple, she's a goddess who needs assurance from a male barbarian human. If it was a old pilosophe, ok, but IKE?! WTH?! Why not Mica, you know, the MAIN char? Or the Queen? If it would have been a God (in a JRPG or tactic RPG, wathever), he would not need assurence. Have you ever saw that scene but with inverted sexes? Check the ending again.

And no, it's to 'mortal or god' thing.

The more fervent you gt, the more difficult to read your writing becomes.

You can't invert the sexes in that scene.

You're not making a point, here, and not pointing out any way in which it's sexist. You're rejecting the primary driving factor for the relationships between Yune and Ashera, Ashera and her followers, Yune and the mercenaries, and Ashunera and the world. If you want to ignore the primary elements of the story, that's fine, but it means you don't have a leg to stand on.

I don't speak english, It's quite normal that I make writing mistakes.

You're not making a point either. I'm not rejecting anything, you just don't read what I write!

You can't invert the sexes in that scene.

Why?



Khuutra on 16 July 2010
I_hate_Itagaki said:
Khuutra said:

The more fervent you gt, the more difficult to read your writing becomes.

You can't invert the sexes in that scene.

You're not making a point, here, and not pointing out any way in which it's sexist. You're rejecting the primary driving factor for the relationships between Yune and Ashera, Ashera and her followers, Yune and the mercenaries, and Ashunera and the world. If you want to ignore the primary elements of the story, that's fine, but it means you don't have a leg to stand on.

I don't speak english, It's quite normal that I make writing mistakes.

You're not making a point either. I'm not rejecting anything, you just don't read what I write!

You can't invert the sexes in that scene.

Why?

When you say "it's not a 'mortal or god' thing", you are rejecting the primary theme of those relationships in the game. The whole story of Yune, Ashera, and Ashunera was about how creators must relate to their creations - or mothers to their children, if you prefer.

You can't invert the sexes in that scene because nobody will eve talk there except Ike and Yune. Are you asking for a scene where a daughter assures her father? I can find you one, but Radiant Dawn is about the responsibilities of mothers and their children, and reversing that undermiens the pointn. Fathers and mothers have different relationships with their childrene. That's not sexism, it's just fact.



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Khuutra on 16 July 2010
lestatdark said:

Female protagonists, as long as they're well portrayed, with actual human similarities and their own intricacies are just as good as a well developed male protagonist. 

Some of my favourite protagonists, not only in games, but in films, are female protagonists, who exude an aura of self-esteem and ability to resolve problems, while still keeping human faucets that are intrinsic to natural human behavior. 

Aya Brea, Selen and Milennia are probably the best videogame protagonists (both female and male) ever created.

OT - I said it on another thread and I'll say it again. People nowadays have no grasp about what the actual meaning behind the word sexist really portrays. Which is an actual shame indeed, seeing how easy such a strong word is thrown around in here, with no actual direct reason as to use it. And it's also extremely funny how somehow, sexist seems to limit itself to a single gender bias against another. It works both ways.

Where are Selen and Milennia from?

And I think you are probably right; I have embarrassed myself in how embroiled I've allowed myself to become, and probably should bow out.



I_hate_Itagaki on 16 July 2010
lestatdark said:

Female protagonists, as long as they're well portrayed, with actual human similarities and their own intricacies are just as good as a well developed male protagonist. 

Some of my favourite protagonists, not only in games, but in films, are female protagonists, who exude an aura of self-esteem and ability to resolve problems, while still keeping human faucets that are intrinsic to natural human behavior. 

Aya Brea, Selen and Milennia are probably the best videogame protagonists (both female and male) ever created.

OT - I said it on another thread and I'll say it again. People nowadays have no grasp about what the actual meaning behind the word sexist really portrays. Which is an actual shame indeed, seeing how easy such a strong word is thrown around in here, with no actual direct reason as to use it. And it's also extremely funny how somehow, sexist seems to limit itself to a single gender bias against another. It works both ways.

I know you are talking about me. I know what sexism means. Strong word? Most people I met don't care about sexism (just look at the numbers of sexist anime/games, I'm pretty sure you know more than 2 of them). Sexism works both ways, but do you have exemples of games that is sexist towards men? It's quie normal that I hate sexism towards female, because it exists.



lestatdark on 16 July 2010
Khuutra said:
lestatdark said:

Female protagonists, as long as they're well portrayed, with actual human similarities and their own intricacies are just as good as a well developed male protagonist. 

Some of my favourite protagonists, not only in games, but in films, are female protagonists, who exude an aura of self-esteem and ability to resolve problems, while still keeping human faucets that are intrinsic to natural human behavior. 

Aya Brea, Selen and Milennia are probably the best videogame protagonists (both female and male) ever created.

OT - I said it on another thread and I'll say it again. People nowadays have no grasp about what the actual meaning behind the word sexist really portrays. Which is an actual shame indeed, seeing how easy such a strong word is thrown around in here, with no actual direct reason as to use it. And it's also extremely funny how somehow, sexist seems to limit itself to a single gender bias against another. It works both ways.

Where are Selen and Milennia from?

And I think you are probably right; I have embarrassed myself in how embroiled I've allowed myself to become, and probably should bow out.

Selen's from Lufia II. She was originally a warrior (the strongest in her land), but eventually fell in love with the main protagonist. Even though all that, she continued to be the proud, strong warrior that she was, until the end. 

Milennia's from Grandia II. She's the personification of the evil deity from the game, Vagras, but she also has an extremely human side to her, which is triggered by very minute things like a kid crying and so on. 

Both of them are very well constructed, and are female models that I would have no problem showing in the future, if I ever have a daughter. 

Also, you misunderstood me, I wasn't referring to you in my last phrase. Granted, it was your exchanges that triggered my interest in this thread, but in the topic of knowledge of the word sexist was actually for the people in this thread who has shown a severe lack of it. Your comment a few replies prior pretty much shed a light in that you're very acquainted with the term

Alas, to be fair, I haven't seen, in this thread, such a vile use of the word sexism as a certain member of this forum likes to apply to it. It has caused quite a few bans for him in the past, and I fear it will continue, but I'll leave it at that. 



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Weegee on 16 July 2010
Khuutra said:

Guys having more strength or HP is not sexism. Differences between genders do not equate to sexism. That is not what "sexism" means.

Your reasoning is flimsy. Multiple characters does not make a game sexist. Stereotypes does not make a game sexist. Your claim about Japanese portrayal of women is needlessly reductive, somewhat xenophobic, and culturally insensitive.

You do not have a point to make, about Fire Emblem or in general. You need to be more specific about sexist elements in a story or sexist elements in mechanics, and you have failed to do either.

Sexism : Sexism is both discrimination based on gender and the attitudes, stereotypes, and the cultural elements.

If the guy have always more str than girl, it's a stereotype so it's called sexism. Fire emblem is a fictional universe with magic & dragon , the character are trained but when the programmer create the  character they make them with less strenght. And for the Attitude, the girl are always less inpulsive and have rarely leadership and they can't regain there courage themself , it's again a stereotype so it's called sexism. The programmer could chose to do 50/50 but they decide to put more guy (so more strong guy) and they decide to put differences between genders even if magic can do everything.



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I_hate_Itagaki on 16 July 2010
Khuutra said:
I_hate_Itagaki said:
Khuutra said:

The more fervent you gt, the more difficult to read your writing becomes.

You can't invert the sexes in that scene.

You're not making a point, here, and not pointing out any way in which it's sexist. You're rejecting the primary driving factor for the relationships between Yune and Ashera, Ashera and her followers, Yune and the mercenaries, and Ashunera and the world. If you want to ignore the primary elements of the story, that's fine, but it means you don't have a leg to stand on.

I don't speak english, It's quite normal that I make writing mistakes.

You're not making a point either. I'm not rejecting anything, you just don't read what I write!

You can't invert the sexes in that scene.

Why?

When you say "it's not a 'mortal or god' thing", you are rejecting the primary theme of those relationships in the game. The whole story of Yune, Ashera, and Ashunera was about how creators must relate to their creations - or mothers to their children, if you prefer.

You can't invert the sexes in that scene because nobody will eve talk there except Ike and Yune. Are you asking for a scene where a daughter assures her father? I can find you one, but Radiant Dawn is about the responsibilities of mothers and their children, and reversing that undermiens the pointn. Fathers and mothers have different relationships with their childrene. That's not sexism, it's just fact.

You think that if it was a father and a daughter, that would be different?