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Forums - General Discussion - What is your take on evolution/old age earth?

RockSmith372 said:
MrBubbles said:

i think if people stopped and looked they would find that there are just as many ignorant assholes ranting about id as there are ranting about evolution.  people like blindly believing things they read in a book without any thought about what they are reading, because they are just told that its right and anything else is wrong.


Sounds like the Bible to me.

 

sounds like you were just trying to prove my point...?  

its all a lot like those "truthers"...  they hear the "truth" and dont really care about anything else and will just attack people until everyone thinks like them.  everyone else is just a bunch of stupid jerk offs because they dont agree with you and are willfully blind to your own "truth"



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Slimebeast said:

The mystery of human altruism and morals. Even Dawkins admits that it's very mysterious.


What's so mysterious about morals? Us humans are social animals that live in societies based on interdependence. This is actually one of the main reasons for our success as a species.  Morals are nothing more than general socieal rules that need to be respected in order for people to be able to live together. All social animals (ants, bees, chimps etc.) modify their behaviour in order to restrain selfishness and make group living possible. Basically morality has the purpose of restricting excessive individualism and promoting cooperation.



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RockSmith372 said:
Booh! said:
RockSmith372 said:
dsister said:

I thought that by saying I don't accept macroevolution that it also implies that I don't accept that life has been around for a billion years.


Well Macroevolution is because speciation(changes in between species), which scientists have observed numerous times. The main question for creationists is whether or not they accept an old age earth or a young earth. Is your religion the reason why you don't accept the old age earth model or is it something observable in nature that makes you question it? If it's religious issues, then I cannot talk much since there would be no point since there would be bias involved, but if it's something in nature that makes you question the old earth model, ask me and I will try my best to answer.

To say the truth none ever observed speciation...

Are you kidding? Since there are so many observed speciation, I am just going to link a site showing you all the observed speciation you need. Most are bacteria/single celled organisms due to fast reproductive rates, allowing time for speciation to be much quicker, but there are observed speciations in animals too. http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-speciation.html

That's a perfect example of what I already said: a dogmatic approach to science can only hurt science. The first point of that faq: "Speciations Involving Polyploidy, Hybridization or Hybridization Followed by Polyploidization" is not speciation, the first example is about Oenothera gigas and Oenothera lamarckiana. Oenothera gigas is not classified as a species (nor as a subspecies, it's just a mutation) anymore, while Oenothera lamarckiana is a defunct name for Oenothera glazioviana (so that faq uses outdated infos) -> http://plants.usda.gov/java/ClassificationServlet?source=profile&symbol=OENOT&display=63. Polyploidy occurs in humans too -> http://faculty.clintoncc.suny.edu/faculty/Michael.Gregory/files/Bio 100/Bio 100 Lectures/Genetics- Human Genetics/human.htm (and no, polyploid humans are not considered a different species). About the speciations in plant species not involving polyploidy, that article doesn't mention the names of the new species. The maize example is quite laughable: a well known effect of inbreeding is the reduction in fertility.

As for the animals, it's all about those damned fruit flies: what's the name of the new species of fruit flies created from the drosophila melanogaster?



Slimebeast said:

I don't believe in current evolution theory.

We've gone through some things before, things i have problems with. Like the lack of evolution in bacteria and even some higher order species (like that fish that hasn't changed in 70 million years or something, forgot the name). The lack of skeletons from humanoids puzzles me.

And I don't trust the guys who reconstruct and interpret these monkey skeletons and postulate human evolutionary trees. Too amateurish. It's too much global warming hoax over it all.

There's the mystery of the conscious mind which evolutionists can't explain.

The mystery of the rapid evolution of human culture and intellect, and it's complexity. How stuff like our interest in art & music etc are explained.

The mystery of human altruism and morals. Even Dawkins admits that it's very mysterious.

Plus I'm a Christian so obviously I have a problem with Darwinian evolution without divine interference. If I wasn't religious maybe I would have just ate it all up without having done any deeper studies.

Charles Darwin wasn't an atheist himself. Really, no part of the Theory of Evolution suggests that God had no part in it. Indeed, it seems plausible that He started the whole process, and perhaps even designed it, since the purpose of evolution is to make an organism as well-optimised and efficient as possible.

But that's a question of philosophy, and not of biology.



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Booh! said:
RockSmith372 said:
Booh! said:
RockSmith372 said:
dsister said:

I thought that by saying I don't accept macroevolution that it also implies that I don't accept that life has been around for a billion years.


Well Macroevolution is because speciation(changes in between species), which scientists have observed numerous times. The main question for creationists is whether or not they accept an old age earth or a young earth. Is your religion the reason why you don't accept the old age earth model or is it something observable in nature that makes you question it? If it's religious issues, then I cannot talk much since there would be no point since there would be bias involved, but if it's something in nature that makes you question the old earth model, ask me and I will try my best to answer.

To say the truth none ever observed speciation...

Are you kidding? Since there are so many observed speciation, I am just going to link a site showing you all the observed speciation you need. Most are bacteria/single celled organisms due to fast reproductive rates, allowing time for speciation to be much quicker, but there are observed speciations in animals too. http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-speciation.html

That's a perfect example of what I already said: a dogmatic approach to science can only hurt science. The first point of that faq: "Speciations Involving Polyploidy, Hybridization or Hybridization Followed by Polyploidization" is not speciation, the first example is about Oenothera gigas and Oenothera lamarckiana. Oenothera gigas is not classified as a species (nor as a subspecies, it's just a mutation) anymore, while Oenothera lamarckiana is a defunct name for Oenothera glazioviana (so that faq uses outdated infos) -> http://plants.usda.gov/java/ClassificationServlet?source=profile&symbol=OENOT&display=63. Polyploidy occurs in humans too -> http://faculty.clintoncc.suny.edu/faculty/Michael.Gregory/files/Bio 100/Bio 100 Lectures/Genetics- Human Genetics/human.htm (and no, polyploid humans are not considered a different species). About the speciations in plant species not involving polyploidy, that article doesn't mention the names of the new species. The maize example is quite laughable: a well known effect of inbreeding is the reduction in fertility.

As for the animals, it's all about those damned fruit flies: what's the name of the new species of fruit flies created from the drosophila melanogaster?


In animals, hybridization/polyploid is not a great way for speciation, but for plants since they are capable of sustaining fast chromosomal duplication. The key thing in speciation is when two varients of the same species's genetic composition is so different that they cannot interbreed with each other. As for the fruit flies, Diane Dodd showed in a lab using drosophila pseudoobscura and through reproductive isolation and new food diet, and in only 8 generations, the two fly groups could not interbreed.

To say that there's never been speciation is foolish. I assume you are a Christian Creationist(if you are not, I apologize). If there was no speciation, how could there be such a diversity of life after the flood? Do you Noah could have stored 2 million species(those are just the ones that have been discovered. Scientists estimate there could be up to 50 million species, and there are many extinct species that Noah probably took on the ark)? That's means there were at the least 4,050,000 species since Noah took 7 of each bird).



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The amount of life, monuments, fossils, etc  on earth support that life could've existed on this planet for thousands, millions or even billions (in theory) unlike the bible which believers say everything started sometime around 6000 years ago. It was definitely a long time, especially with oil deposits within the earth which can only be replicated after thousands of years after its been depleted. Thanks to us and our burial/lifestyle habits this process might take much longer than ever before. Look how much oil has been created, spent and used to pollute this planet rather than leave it as a source of life, much like the blood that respectively runs through our veins. This planet seems to have a natural sustenance and recreation style second only after the support it gets from its precise distance from the sun. It seems in our solar system life begets life. The true question isn't "how old is the earth?".....The real question is how old is the sun?  From there we can start to understand how everything within its circle works more appropriately. The bible isn't helping anyone with half a brain.



Wait, how exactly does a six legged baby prove that Macroevolution is true?  I'm not doubting evolution as I believe it is true, but surely I've missed the reason why folks aren't poking fun at that?  If anything it proves mutants.



lestatdark said:
Slimebeast said:
lestatdark said:
Slimebeast said:

I don't believe in current evolution theory.

We've gone through some things before, things i have problems with. Like the lack of evolution in bacteria and even some higher order species (like that fish that hasn't changed in 70 million years or something, forgot the name). The lack of skeletons from humanoids puzzles me.

And I don't trust the guys who reconstruct and interpret these monkey skeletons. Too amateurish. It's too much global warming hoax over it all.

There's the mystery of the conscious mind which evolutionists can't explain.

The mystery of the rapid evolution of human culture and intellect, and it's complexity. How stuff like our interest in art & music etc are explained.

The mystery of human altruism and morals. Even Dawkins admits that it's very mysterious.

Plus I'm a Christian so obviously I have a problem with Darwinian evolution without divine interference. If I wasn't religious maybe I would have just ate it all up without having done any deeper studies.

You're going down roads that you cannot possibly explain. Bacteria are the order of living organisms that suffer most evolution, due to the incorporation of extra set of genomic chromossomes, the plasmids, that confer them evolution patterns way ahead of Eukaryota cells. 

Also, the fish you're talking about, the Coelocanth, isn't an exclusive case of staggered evolution. Sharks have pretty much stayed the same, with very few minute mutational changes in the species range. Crocodiles as well.

And yet Bacteria's can't talk. They're still stuck at the micro level. (don't try with the "evolution has no goal" or "germs are already successful, they own their niche, they don't need to talk or to play video games").

Sharks and Croqs have the same problem as the Coelocanth, yes.

They are already more successful than any other living being.

Why? Because Bacteria are pretty much the most adaptable living being. They can live in environments ranging from pH 1 to pH 14. They can live in temperatures as low as -80º C to as high as 140º C. They can live in extremely low pressure areas like the top of the Himalayas or as high pressure as the bottom of the Marianna Abyss. They range from all the trophic, chemical and non-chemical, sustainable metabolism and pretty much are the only living being that can non-generational shift to adapt it's own genomic resistances 

High though process that Homo Sapiens are capable of is just a by-product of evolution. While it is important for humanity per se, for the ecological super-power, bacteria, it's pretty much useless.

Anyway, this is a pretty useless debate. Me, as a geneticist, have access to a vaster amount of information, knowledge and personal experience in this issue (bacteria evolution and genetic similarities) than you. I'm not saying that you're wrong and that i'm right, i'm just saying that you're debating an issue that you cannot possibly win. And that will only end in fruitless struggle that I won't indulge in this topic. 

You cannot win the debate either.

Yes, you just showed how extreme the environmental pressure is on bacteria, with them being present in all possible environments on earth. That's the point, to address how successful and prevalent bacteria are and show its implications in the context of the rate of evolution that would be expected from them. Despite bacteria being everywhere, in massive numbers, under all sorts of environmental pressures, yet they have remained on the primitive micro level, having only conquered niches on the single-cell micro level.

Because the individual bacteria doesn't care if bacteria as a group of organisms have conquered the earth. Every individual of bacteria tries to survive, and every individual bacteria has potential to evolve into something different, something more complex. But they don't. Why is that? You need to ask yourself why bacterial evolution is so limited, so narrow, compared to the eukaryotic line of life. 

Bacteria is the prime example of (so called) micro-evolution never becoming "macro-evolution".



ManusJustus said:
Slimebeast said:

I don't trust the guys who reconstruct and interpret these monkey skeletons and postulate human evolutionary trees. Too amateurish. It's too much global warming hoax over it all.  If I wasn't religious maybe I would have just ate it all up without having done any deeper studies.

Aren't you a doctor in Europe?  No wonder they don't pay you guys anything over there :)

Concerning the mystery of human morals, other animals like monkeys and lions live in groups and don't kill or harm each other (atleast not anymore than moral man).  If large groups of monkeys can live peacefully while sharing food, grooming each other, and having recreational sex, then it doesn't seem like rational man has much to brag about.

lol

My short objection on your reply:  morals =/= behaviour based on instinct.



Slimebeast said:

I don't believe in current evolution theory.

We've gone through some things before, things i have problems with. Like the lack of evolution in bacteria and even some higher order species (like that fish that hasn't changed in 70 million years or something, forgot the name). The lack of skeletons from humanoids puzzles me.

And I don't trust the guys who reconstruct and interpret these monkey skeletons and postulate human evolutionary trees. Too amateurish. It's too much global warming hoax over it all.

There's the mystery of the conscious mind which evolutionists can't explain.

The mystery of the rapid evolution of human culture and intellect, and it's complexity. How stuff like our interest in art & music etc are explained.

The mystery of human altruism and morals. Even Dawkins admits that it's very mysterious.

Plus I'm a Christian so obviously I have a problem with Darwinian evolution without divine interference. If I wasn't religious maybe I would have just ate it all up without having done any deeper studies.

I'm sorry but your logic doesn't work. By your reasoning an theory can't be valid unless it answers 100% of the questions posed to it.

Well I've got news for you, the world doesn't work like that, and if that were the case you would have dismiss pretty much all science.

Science is the search for an answer, and something like most fields of science evolution doesn't have a simple answer for everything; so we have to research, find and interpret evidence, and discover the answer; this has been an ongoing process for the last 150 years. No one is going to say the current model of evolution is 100% complete, and I'm sure everyone will happily admit that there are things we just don't know about.

What we do know is that a lot of evidence supports the theory of evolution, we know it has happened and we know it is happening. We can't explain all the details, but more than enough evidence exists to show that it does happen.

Applying your logic to another situation could be done with gravity. We know gravity exists, but don't know everything about it (not by a long shot). Does this mean that gravity doesn't exist because we don't know everything about it, despite enough evidence existing to prove its existence? No. Of course not.

Yet you've applied this same logic to evolution.