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Forums - General Discussion - 9 dead as Israeli forces board Gaza aid Convoy

BrayanA on 07 June 2010
mirgro said:
BrayanA said:
mirgro said:
BrayanA said:
Badassbab said:

1 ArnoldRimmer

The IDF kills innocent civilians- FACT. Not an opinion but fact. In fact it has killed tens of thousands of innocent civilians since it's creation (Occupied territories and Lebanon). Resorting to massive use of violence is what it's well known for and what it does best when it's policies are challenged whether it's peacfully or violently.

The killing of civilians in this particular incident is unfortunate for Israel as it involves a wide mix of people from all over the world including activists from countries it has diplomatic relations with and members of NATO. This has bought it to major world wide attention.

IDF forces were attacked when they legaly try to board, check my previous post:
4. It is legal to attack neutral merchant vessels in international waters acording to International Law (SECTION V : NEUTRAL MERCHANT VESSELS AND CIVIL AIRCRAFT) if they "are believed on reasonable grounds to be carrying contraband or breaching a blockade, and after prior warning they intentionally and clearly refuse to stop, or intentionally and clearly resist visit, search or capture" (See first link). As you can see from the second link: "breaching a blockade" - checked, "prior warning" - checked, "refuse to stop" - checked.
http://www.icrc.org/ihl.nsf/385ec082b509e76c41256739003e636d/7694fe2016f347e1c125641f002d49ce
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P6jDIQr59Sk

As you can see from this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gYjkLUcbJWo
they were attacked by the mob on the top deck - so they can not be "innocent civilians". Every police and army can defend if they were attacked. So here the question is when IDF kill the people. If they shoot at them when they attack them - they are not guilty. If they shoot after they surrender - they are guilty. Do you have prove for the second one !!!!!!

They fucked up because they sent in armed forces on board. Can you tell me what country uses armed forces against unarmed civilian mobs in this day and age?

Nobody board a ship with police. All blockades are enforced by army. Did USA blockade Cuba with police forces? This is a job for the army. Did you care to read the International Law for Armed Conflicts at Sea I already posted? Do you know what word "attacked" means . Nobody use police for attack operation.

How other 5 vessels were capturted without any force? Because the people in them does not resist.


So I guess an unarmed mob now consitutes an attack on a country? Man, I don't know what fucked up world you live in, but you should really lighten up and realize that the people on the boat were nothing more than unarmed civilians.

What means unarmed mob and what means peacefull protesters?

Thise are peacefull unarmed protesters:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Ba0iXUzxu0


This are not:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0W_0KzI1P4c
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tn3jTT0afZk
- people attacking soldiers with metal poles and metal chains - checked
- people attacking soldiers with knifes - checked
- people trowing stun granades and fire bombs at soldiers - checked

At the moment first soldier stepped on the ship 5 people attacked him immediately - so they started first, not the soldiers.

Well ... what can I say more? If somebody is beating you with a metal pole and onother one stabbed you with a knife in the back and you have a gun what will you do in this situation? Wait till they beat you up or use your gun to protect yourself?



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ProdigyBam on 07 June 2010
BrayanA said:
mirgro said:
BrayanA said:
mirgro said:
BrayanA said:
Badassbab said:

1 ArnoldRimmer

The IDF kills innocent civilians- FACT. Not an opinion but fact. In fact it has killed tens of thousands of innocent civilians since it's creation (Occupied territories and Lebanon). Resorting to massive use of violence is what it's well known for and what it does best when it's policies are challenged whether it's peacfully or violently.

The killing of civilians in this particular incident is unfortunate for Israel as it involves a wide mix of people from all over the world including activists from countries it has diplomatic relations with and members of NATO. This has bought it to major world wide attention.

IDF forces were attacked when they legaly try to board, check my previous post:
4. It is legal to attack neutral merchant vessels in international waters acording to International Law (SECTION V : NEUTRAL MERCHANT VESSELS AND CIVIL AIRCRAFT) if they "are believed on reasonable grounds to be carrying contraband or breaching a blockade, and after prior warning they intentionally and clearly refuse to stop, or intentionally and clearly resist visit, search or capture" (See first link). As you can see from the second link: "breaching a blockade" - checked, "prior warning" - checked, "refuse to stop" - checked.
http://www.icrc.org/ihl.nsf/385ec082b509e76c41256739003e636d/7694fe2016f347e1c125641f002d49ce
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P6jDIQr59Sk

As you can see from this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gYjkLUcbJWo
they were attacked by the mob on the top deck - so they can not be "innocent civilians". Every police and army can defend if they were attacked. So here the question is when IDF kill the people. If they shoot at them when they attack them - they are not guilty. If they shoot after they surrender - they are guilty. Do you have prove for the second one !!!!!!

They fucked up because they sent in armed forces on board. Can you tell me what country uses armed forces against unarmed civilian mobs in this day and age?

Nobody board a ship with police. All blockades are enforced by army. Did USA blockade Cuba with police forces? This is a job for the army. Did you care to read the International Law for Armed Conflicts at Sea I already posted? Do you know what word "attacked" means . Nobody use police for attack operation.

How other 5 vessels were capturted without any force? Because the people in them does not resist.


So I guess an unarmed mob now consitutes an attack on a country? Man, I don't know what fucked up world you live in, but you should really lighten up and realize that the people on the boat were nothing more than unarmed civilians.

What means unarmed mob and what means peacefull protesters?

Thise are peacefull unarmed protesters:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Ba0iXUzxu0


This are not:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0W_0KzI1P4c
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tn3jTT0afZk
- people attacking soldiers with metal poles and metal chains - checked
- people attacking soldiers with knifes - checked
- people trowing stun granades and fire bombs at soldiers - checked

At the moment first soldier stepped on the ship 5 people attacked him immediately - so they started first, not the soldiers.

Well ... what can I say more? If somebody is beating you with a metal pole and onother one stabbed you with a knife in the back and you have a gun what will you do in this situation? Wait till they beat you up or use your gun to protect yourself?


ohhhm uhhmmm....

You know, the israelis took a boy as a shield some years ago!!!!

israel is the biggest terror organisation in the world!!11

/sarcasm



Fedor Emelianenko - Greatest Fighter and most humble man to ever walk the earth:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lVVrNOQtlzY

NKAJ on 07 June 2010

Well looking at this thread,I can see that there are some posters who will just ignore the fact that their arguments are being defeated and instead produce more hatred.I mean ,its quite clear that some people will hate Israel no matter what they do.



"They will know heghan belongs to the helghast"

"England expects that everyman will do his duty"

"we shall fight on the beaches, we shall fight on the landing grounds, we shall fight in the fields and in the streets, we shall fight in the hills; we shall never surrender"

 

mirgro on 07 June 2010
Kasz216 said:
mirgro said:
Kasz216 said:
mirgro said:


I am fairly sure any of the nine who are dead would have rather been in the water with a broken arm than shot. Same for being gased. In fact since it's so small, gas would have worked even better than on wide open city blocks.

I'm not talking about them.

I'm talking about the Israeli's who legally boarded.

I don't think you can do much swimming with riot gear on.

So then, instead you've got a bunch of drowned Israeli soldiers, and another round of people with life guns go down... and you end up with ATLEAST those 9 dead if not more.  You can't control people on a boat with riot gear.  That's just stupidity... not enough room to backup, and if you fall off the side, your dead.  People shouldn't have to put up with that.

If people didn't want to die... they should of surrendered.

Like the other 2 boats did.  In situations like that... when people riot, they put their lives in their own hands. 

Or this boat.  http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/world/middle_east/10245176.stm

They have noone to blame but themselves in the first place for the whole situation because they willingly and knowingly left port to try and break a blockade.


Alright fair enough, but what about the gas? What is their excuse for not using gas and instead opted for deadly force?

Also maybe you aren't aware of riots, or civilian mobs, but they aren't the types of mass gatherings that just surrender. Whatever their reason was, they were ust an unarmed mob of rioters. A very small one at that. Yes they were on a ship, however that does not change the fact that they were an unarmed mob, and killing them is probably the most reatrded action anyone could have done in this day and age. Send them to jail, break a bone or two, but killing no. Killing rioters is on the same level of retarded and fucked up as Kent State and Tananmen Square, as far as this is concerned it's really no different. Israel just fucked up hard.


You know... you'd have a point, if it wasn't for the fact that the other 4-5 ships DID just surrender. It's not even remotley similiar to those other two... you really need to put things in perspective if you think otherwise... think if your bias isn't creeping in.

As for why they didn't use gas.

Again... THEY DID USE GAS.  It didn't stop the rioters.   Gas pretty much never does.

They exhausted all non-lethal options.


So, once again, your non-lethal force is getting beaten, you've used gas, the mob hasn't dispersed?

What other option is there?

It's either Lethal Force or let your troops die.  Period.

Didn't know they used gas, first of all. Second, use of lethal force on unarmed rioters is despicable in any situation, and it always will be. I have no hate towards Israel, well, no more han towards Palestine, so I am just going by the facts here.

Another thing, the troops would have been perfectly safe had they not been on the ship in the first place. Are you willing to tell me that there was absolutely no way that they could stop the ship, short of sending in commandos? I''m sure that this wasn't a magic ship, and had such things as a rudder or engines.



mirgro on 07 June 2010
BrayanA said:
mirgro said:


So I guess an unarmed mob now consitutes an attack on a country? Man, I don't know what fucked up world you live in, but you should really lighten up and realize that the people on the boat were nothing more than unarmed civilians.

What means unarmed mob and what means peacefull protesters?

Thise are peacefull unarmed protesters:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Ba0iXUzxu0


This are not:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0W_0KzI1P4c
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tn3jTT0afZk
- people attacking soldiers with metal poles and metal chains - checked
- people attacking soldiers with knifes - checked
- people trowing stun granades and fire bombs at soldiers - checked

At the moment first soldier stepped on the ship 5 people attacked him immediately - so they started first, not the soldiers.

Well ... what can I say more? If somebody is beating you with a metal pole and onother one stabbed you with a knife in the back and you have a gun what will you do in this situation? Wait till they beat you up or use your gun to protect yourself?


I really hate your bubble full of hot steam, but a mob armed with sticks ad stone is not classified as armed. You can say they were using sticks, rods, etc. etc. but until they get their hands on firearms, they are not armed. Furthermore, I must be blind or something, but I have not seen any use of stun grenades and/or fire bombs. Furthermore, it seems a part of human nature that when someone decides to get into you home, you beat the shit out of him, correct me if I am wrong though.



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HappySqurriel on 07 June 2010

Being that people seem to be most upset by the illegal bording of these activists vessels, I think Israel should only use legal actions when dealing with uncooperative ships; and sink them when they enter into Israeli waters. That way everyone would be happy because (after all) Israel only did what was entirely reasonable and legal to do ...

By the way, I'm not being serious; but I do believe that is the outcome that this convoy of ships was looking for (regardless of whether the passengers knew it). Effectively, organizers filled the boats with useful idiots and sent them off to offer humanitarian aid (and possibly a small-ish cache of arms) to Palestine with instructions to not co-operate with Israeli forces; with the three possible outcomes being:

  1. Israel blocking or intercepting the convoy peacefully, and this can be spun as Israel is evil because they deny aid to Palestine (even though they provide tons of aid).
  2. Israel blocking or intercepting the convoy through forc, and this can be spun as Israel is evil because they deny aid to Palestine and harmed "Peaceful" activists
  3. The convoy reaching its destination and delivering aid (most likely) to terrorist groups; who can then use this aid to gain favour with the citizens.

Israel’s actions were questionable, and the results were deplorable; and hopefully this will enable them to develop new tactics to turn away these ships peacefully without incident. With that said, in no way could the mission of these ships be classified as humanitarian; and most of the passengers were (probably) pawns sent out with the intention of them being slaughtered.



BrayanA on 07 June 2010
mirgro said:
BrayanA said:
mirgro said:


So I guess an unarmed mob now consitutes an attack on a country? Man, I don't know what fucked up world you live in, but you should really lighten up and realize that the people on the boat were nothing more than unarmed civilians.

What means unarmed mob and what means peacefull protesters?

Thise are peacefull unarmed protesters:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Ba0iXUzxu0


This are not:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0W_0KzI1P4c
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tn3jTT0afZk
- people attacking soldiers with metal poles and metal chains - checked
- people attacking soldiers with knifes - checked
- people trowing stun granades and fire bombs at soldiers - checked

At the moment first soldier stepped on the ship 5 people attacked him immediately - so they started first, not the soldiers.

Well ... what can I say more? If somebody is beating you with a metal pole and onother one stabbed you with a knife in the back and you have a gun what will you do in this situation? Wait till they beat you up or use your gun to protect yourself?


I really hate your bubble full of hot steam, but a mob armed with sticks ad stone is not classified as armed. You can say they were using sticks, rods, etc. etc. but until they get their hands on firearms, they are not armed. Furthermore, I must be blind or something, but I have not seen any use of stun grenades and/or fire bombs. Furthermore, it seems a part of human nature that when someone decides to get into you home, you beat the shit out of him, correct me if I am wrong though.


So according to you a man with a knife and metal tube is not armed?!?!? I'm sorry, but according to police and army rules he is!

Weapon can be any item "which can inflict mortal or great bodily harm"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deadly_weapon

Do you know how many people were shot (and some of them die), cos the were armed with a knife? Just check same links:
http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/2010/apr/26/officer-involved-shooting-near-morley-field/
http://www.nj.com/news/index.ssf/2009/04/police_shoot_man_armed_with_kn.html
http://www.sfexaminer.com/nation/94336369.html
http://www.kgw.com/news/local/Trooper-shoots-armed-suspect-in-Milwaukie-area-95239009.html
http://www.news.com.au/national/police-shoot-armed-bus-hijacker/story-e6frfkvr-1225869387761
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/world/2010/01/02/2010-01-02_police_shoot_kill_somali_man_armed_with_knife_ax_at_cartoonist_kurt_westergaards.html

Now let me help you see what you can't (or you don't want to) see:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tn3jTT0afZk
- 0:08 stun grenade thrown at soldiers

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=le8y37abCIo
- 0:41 - another stun grenade
- 0:51 - fire bomb is thrown

And in the end. I don't know how is in you country, but in nornal countries when a police come into your house to search it or to arest somebody, you don't beat up the policemen. Same for the army. In Iraq US army soldiers searched many iraqi houses and arested many people in their homes. According to you they should be beaten by the owners?!



Kasz216 on 07 June 2010
mirgro said:
Kasz216 said:
mirgro said:
Kasz216 said:
mirgro said:


I am fairly sure any of the nine who are dead would have rather been in the water with a broken arm than shot. Same for being gased. In fact since it's so small, gas would have worked even better than on wide open city blocks.

I'm not talking about them.

I'm talking about the Israeli's who legally boarded.

I don't think you can do much swimming with riot gear on.

So then, instead you've got a bunch of drowned Israeli soldiers, and another round of people with life guns go down... and you end up with ATLEAST those 9 dead if not more.  You can't control people on a boat with riot gear.  That's just stupidity... not enough room to backup, and if you fall off the side, your dead.  People shouldn't have to put up with that.

If people didn't want to die... they should of surrendered.

Like the other 2 boats did.  In situations like that... when people riot, they put their lives in their own hands. 

Or this boat.  http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/world/middle_east/10245176.stm

They have noone to blame but themselves in the first place for the whole situation because they willingly and knowingly left port to try and break a blockade.


Alright fair enough, but what about the gas? What is their excuse for not using gas and instead opted for deadly force?

Also maybe you aren't aware of riots, or civilian mobs, but they aren't the types of mass gatherings that just surrender. Whatever their reason was, they were ust an unarmed mob of rioters. A very small one at that. Yes they were on a ship, however that does not change the fact that they were an unarmed mob, and killing them is probably the most reatrded action anyone could have done in this day and age. Send them to jail, break a bone or two, but killing no. Killing rioters is on the same level of retarded and fucked up as Kent State and Tananmen Square, as far as this is concerned it's really no different. Israel just fucked up hard.


You know... you'd have a point, if it wasn't for the fact that the other 4-5 ships DID just surrender. It's not even remotley similiar to those other two... you really need to put things in perspective if you think otherwise... think if your bias isn't creeping in.

As for why they didn't use gas.

Again... THEY DID USE GAS.  It didn't stop the rioters.   Gas pretty much never does.

They exhausted all non-lethal options.


So, once again, your non-lethal force is getting beaten, you've used gas, the mob hasn't dispersed?

What other option is there?

It's either Lethal Force or let your troops die.  Period.

Didn't know they used gas, first of all. Second, use of lethal force on unarmed rioters is despicable in any situation, and it always will be. I have no hate towards Israel, well, no more han towards Palestine, so I am just going by the facts here.

Another thing, the troops would have been perfectly safe had they not been on the ship in the first place. Are you willing to tell me that there was absolutely no way that they could stop the ship, short of sending in commandos? I''m sure that this wasn't a magic ship, and had such things as a rudder or engines.

Going by the facts which you don't even know apparently.

It sounds like you made up your mind BEFORE you knew the facts and now are simply unwilling to change your opinion.

Also, well YES that is the only way they could of stopped the ship some other way.

Without risking the deaths of EVERYBODY anyway.   IF they attacked the rudders or Engines even the littlest wave could of cause them to accidently sink the damn thing.  Heck it might not even take that.  These kind of ships used for floatillia's are usually weak out of date ships that haven't been in regular service or matience for years.  

I guess if you think it'd be a better option to possibly kill EVERBODY.  That's fine.

 

Nevermind the fact that you then have to send people on the ship anyway to either evacuate the people or to hook up a towing line.



Kasz216 on 07 June 2010

I mean, the suggestion that law enforcement/military should only use guns when the criminals have guns is asinine... espiecally when the groups with clubs, chains and knives is much larger.



badgenome on 07 June 2010
Kasz216 said:

I mean, the suggestion that law enforcement/military should only use guns when the criminals have guns is asinine... espiecally when the groups with clubs, chains and knives is much larger.

Indeed, yo.