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Forums - General Discussion - So... how about that Tea Party?

badgenome said:
lostintheodyssey said:

You have more faith than me then. All you have to do is look at history most people don't seem to act right unless they have the federal government breathing down their neck.

Perhaps I have more faith in people than you do, but you have infinitely more faith in the federal government than I do. I'm not really inclined to go into a point by point response to your lengthy post, but suffice to say that I fear the feds (and the rapid expansion of the federal government) far more than I do some fringe-of-a-fringe-of-a-fringe group like the fucking Klan.

Also, this was posted earlier in the thread but maybe you missed it:

The tea party is pretty representative of America, demographically speaking. There are proportionately less blacks, but that is to be expected given their extremely high approval for Obama.

You do know that polls can be manipulated to show anything that the user wants right?  Hispanics are a larger minority than blacks they were estimated at 13.7% in 2003 and are probably over 15% now.  So you mean to tell me that the tea party has 13.7% of hispanics in the party and x amounts of asians, biracials etc I seriously doubt it.  So let's assume and it's a big assumption that they represent america demographically they won't win an election over a democrat unless the state is extremely conservative.  The tea party seems to be splitting the republican party up in to two factions those that are extremely to the right and those that are moderate.  The United States in the past 20 years has been either moderately to the left or moderately to the right and the Tea Party is too far to the right to be taken seriously on a national stage.  I doubt they will have a serious contender for the presidency in 2012 and I doubt they will win a senate seat.

Also why do you fear the feds and the expansion of the government I hear people say this all the time but they never give a reason for it?

 

 



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lostintheodyssey said:

You do know that polls can be manipulated to show anything that the user wants right? 

You do know that Gallup has a much greater interest in maintaining its own credibility than in carrying water for the tea party, right?

Hispanics are a larger minority than blacks they were estimated at 13.7% in 2003 and are probably over 15% now.  So you mean to tell me that the tea party has 13.7% of hispanics in the party and x amounts of asians, biracials etc I seriously doubt it. 

Okay, so you doubt it. So what?

So let's assume and it's a big assumption that they represent america demographically they won't win an election over a democrat unless the state is extremely conservative.  The tea party seems to be splitting the republican party up in to two factions those that are extremely to the right and those that are moderate. 

Really? They endorsed Scott Brown, who is quite the moderate, and he won in a state that is not extremely conservative.

The United States in the past 20 years has been either moderately to the left or moderately to the right and the Tea Party is too far to the right to be taken seriously on a national stage.  I doubt they will have a serious contender for the presidency in 2012 and I doubt they will win a senate seat.

Since the tea party is primarily an anti-big government, anti-debt group, I don't think you can pigeon hole them as being on the far right. Also, since it is not a political party in itself but rather a grassroots pressure group, I can guarantee you that they will win at least one Senate seat, insofar as candidates whom they've endorsed will win their elections.

Also why do you fear the feds and the expansion of the government I hear people say this all the time but they never give a reason for it?

Um... trillion dollar deficits as far as the eye can see. An entitlement society that is basically a giant ponzi scheme. Its unwillingness to get a handle on immigration and border security, even after 9/11. Its inability to find its own ass with both hands and a map. Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac. Iraq. How many reasons do you need? The federal government seems the perfect combination of arrogance and stupidity, with a large side order of evil.

 

 



makingmusic476 said:
lostintheodyssey said:
 

All you have to do is look at history most people don't seem to act right unless they have the federal government breathing down their neck. 

How can you expect a government elected by and consisting of the people to be morally superior to the general public?  If a majority of the people don't want to act this way, then why are they electing officials that will force them to act this way?

Well if you have noticed most candidates don't give away where they stand on the issues until they get elected.  They take a middle of the road approach and they also switch positions on a issue sometime after getting elected.  When Lincoln got elected even though he didn't approve of slavery he said he would not end it he just wouldn't allow it to spread to the new territories.  After the civil war started due to south carolina trying to secede from the union he saw an opportunity to kill two birds with one stone by using the war to free the slaves.

But you asked a good question and it does happen.  In recent years polls have shown that most americans are in favor of legislation that prevents illegal immigration and terrorists from coming in to the country even if it discriminates against hispanics and people of arab descent.  Of course the federal government isn't going to pass any legislation that discriminates on those groups though.

Polls have recently came out saying that most americans approve of the immigration bill in arizona even though it has gotten a lot of opposition the majority seem to support it.  A few days ago Obama mentioned that discrimination shouldn't be considered acceptable when trying to capture illegal immigrants so go figure.

 



badgenome said:

lostintheodyssey said:

You do know that polls can be manipulated to show anything that the user wants right? 

You do know that Gallup has a much greater interest in maintaining its own credibility than in carrying water for the tea party, right?

Hispanics are a larger minority than blacks they were estimated at 13.7% in 2003 and are probably over 15% now.  So you mean to tell me that the tea party has 13.7% of hispanics in the party and x amounts of asians, biracials etc I seriously doubt it. 

Okay, so you doubt it. So what?

So let's assume and it's a big assumption that they represent america demographically they won't win an election over a democrat unless the state is extremely conservative.  The tea party seems to be splitting the republican party up in to two factions those that are extremely to the right and those that are moderate. 

Really? They endorsed Scott Brown, who is quite the moderate, and he won in a state that is not extremely conservative.

The United States in the past 20 years has been either moderately to the left or moderately to the right and the Tea Party is too far to the right to be taken seriously on a national stage.  I doubt they will have a serious contender for the presidency in 2012 and I doubt they will win a senate seat.

Since the tea party is primarily an anti-big government, anti-debt group, I don't think you can pigeon hole them as being on the far right. Also, since it is not a political party in itself but rather a grassroots pressure group, I can guarantee you that they will win at least one Senate seat, insofar as candidates whom they've endorsed will win their elections.

Also why do you fear the feds and the expansion of the government I hear people say this all the time but they never give a reason for it?

Um... trillion dollar deficits as far as the eye can see. An entitlement society that is basically a giant ponzi scheme. Its unwillingness to get a handle on immigration and border security, even after 9/11. Its inability to find its own ass with both hands and a map. Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac. Iraq. How many reasons do you need? The federal government seems the perfect combination of arrogance and stupidity, with a large side order of evil.

 

 

1.  You do know it's stupid to just put all of your faith in one poll right?  You should be looking at statistics from many different places not just one.

2.  Ok I doubt it and after looking at polls from multiple other sites I was proven right you found one poll that highlighted the group in the best possible light.

3.  Lol Scott Brown of course they backed him in Massachusetts who else would they choose?  That's called picking the lesser of two evils for them they don't really support him they just didn't want a democrat to win since they saw how long Kennedy was in office.

4.  We will just have to wait and see who wins but I will let you in on a little secret no matter who they endorse or what side they choose they are going to increase the debt and government it's just going to happen going by the trend of the past 20+ years republican democrat it doesn't matter.

5.)  Well you know that the country had a surplus before the previous president screwed everything up right?  You also know that you have to spend money to make money right and that simply cutting services isn't going to miraculously fix this countries problems or even begin to make a scratch in it?  Things like healthcare reform and financial refrom will help the country in the long run people are just too impatient to wait for it.  On immigration yes I believe a better system should be set in place where immigrants can come in to the country become citizens, pay taxes etc.  Border Security is a waste of money no matter what the United States does immigrants will figure out a way to cross the border.

Even after 9/11 there hasn't been a major successful attack on the united states so I would say that the United States has done fine in terms of security.  Don't forget that even before 9/11 attacks like the oklahoma city bombing still happened so it would be stupid to think that the country would be free of threats.  Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac happened under the previous administration and steps have been taken to make sure something like that doesn't happen again.

Iraq once again that was the previous administration we should have never went there but Bush dangled the 9/11 card in front of americans most americans fell for it like idiots.   Steps are said to be taking place so the troops can withdraw I will believe it when I see it though.



lostintheodyssey said:

Bush is bad! His debt was bad! Democrats are good! Their debt is good! I have proof that the tea party is 150% white, but I won't link it because it's super secret! LOLOLOL!



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badgenome said:

lostintheodyssey said:

Bush is bad! His debt was bad! Democrats are good! Their debt is good! I have proof that the tea party is 150% white, but I won't link it because it's super secret! LOLOLOL!

Wow way to put words in someones mouth I just pointed out the fact that the budget was balanced before he got in there which is true.  I didn't say democrats were 100% good I just made the opinion that given time I believe the reform would pay off which may or may not happen and if it doesn't I wouldn't have a problem saying I was wrong.  And I can link the sites if you want be judging by your tone you would just say sites like bloomberg, university polls, etc were from the liberal media.  And I also notice where you ignored where I doubted the promise of Obama where he said he would withdraw the troops but you just see what you want to see.

 

Edit) Well I might as well do you as well.  I'm a white man from mississppi and I'm afraid of the hispanics coming in and taking over all of our jobs.  No matter what we must keep em out of our country.  Who cares if we may have falsified a war much like the Iraq war because we wanted to take California from them as well as Nevada and Arizona. The nerve of the government stepping in and trying to make things somewhat fair for all people in the country no matter their race, class, or religion we need to keep the government out of our lives so we go back to the old days when only a certain group could prosper and we could get away with whatever we wanted to. I also think that everything the modern republicans do is right and the tea partyers are my heroes. They say they are anti government and anti big business but they get elected and they expand the government, turn the other way when it comes to big business and raise taxes but that's ok I'm not going to hold them accountable for what they say I am just going to keep rooting for them. Because they are definitely better than those democrats. 

I'm going to pick the one poll where it says the party is similar to the demographics of america and ignore the other polls like cnn, bloomberg, and university polls that show that whites make up 88-89% of the tea party.  Clearly that is an attack by the leftist media with an agenda while the poll I picked doesn't have any agendas because I say so.  But even if the party was 150% white who cares I am white so they represent my america so who cares about those other groups anyway we should have kept them out of the country. 

Also I don't want to pay taxes for anything.  If I get hurt in an accident I don't need the police or hospital or any government services I can limp myself back home and treat my own wounds.  I don't need to call the police if someone breaks in to my home that's what my shotgun.  I don't want to pay taxes for education if I have kids I will put them through school and pay for it myself.  What do I look like I don't want to use my tax money to help others.  Helping others is unnatural and unhealthy for me.



lostintheodyssey said:
makingmusic476 said:
lostintheodyssey said:
 

All you have to do is look at history most people don't seem to act right unless they have the federal government breathing down their neck. 

How can you expect a government elected by and consisting of the people to be morally superior to the general public?  If a majority of the people don't want to act this way, then why are they electing officials that will force them to act this way?

Well if you have noticed most candidates don't give away where they stand on the issues until they get elected.  They take a middle of the road approach and they also switch positions on a issue sometime after getting elected.  When Lincoln got elected even though he didn't approve of slavery he said he would not end it he just wouldn't allow it to spread to the new territories.  After the civil war started due to south carolina trying to secede from the union he saw an opportunity to kill two birds with one stone by using the war to free the slaves.

But you asked a good question and it does happen.  In recent years polls have shown that most americans are in favor of legislation that prevents illegal immigration and terrorists from coming in to the country even if it discriminates against hispanics and people of arab descent.  Of course the federal government isn't going to pass any legislation that discriminates on those groups though.

Polls have recently came out saying that most americans approve of the immigration bill in arizona even though it has gotten a lot of opposition the majority seem to support it.  A few days ago Obama mentioned that discrimination shouldn't be considered acceptable when trying to capture illegal immigrants so go figure.

 

So you're saying that politicians lie to us to get elected?  And you're assuming that despite blatantly lying to us, they ultimately know what's good for us and thus the legislation they pass is necessary to keep the majority in line?



makingmusic476 said:
lostintheodyssey said:
makingmusic476 said:
lostintheodyssey said:
 

All you have to do is look at history most people don't seem to act right unless they have the federal government breathing down their neck. 

How can you expect a government elected by and consisting of the people to be morally superior to the general public?  If a majority of the people don't want to act this way, then why are they electing officials that will force them to act this way?

Well if you have noticed most candidates don't give away where they stand on the issues until they get elected.  They take a middle of the road approach and they also switch positions on a issue sometime after getting elected.  When Lincoln got elected even though he didn't approve of slavery he said he would not end it he just wouldn't allow it to spread to the new territories.  After the civil war started due to south carolina trying to secede from the union he saw an opportunity to kill two birds with one stone by using the war to free the slaves.

But you asked a good question and it does happen.  In recent years polls have shown that most americans are in favor of legislation that prevents illegal immigration and terrorists from coming in to the country even if it discriminates against hispanics and people of arab descent.  Of course the federal government isn't going to pass any legislation that discriminates on those groups though.

Polls have recently came out saying that most americans approve of the immigration bill in arizona even though it has gotten a lot of opposition the majority seem to support it.  A few days ago Obama mentioned that discrimination shouldn't be considered acceptable when trying to capture illegal immigrants so go figure.

 

So you're saying that politicians lie to us to get elected?  And you're assuming that despite blatantly lying to us, they ultimately know what's good for us and thus the legislation they pass is necessary to keep the majority in line?

Is there any such thing as an honest politician?  I don't think they blatantly lie to us I think that they underplay what their position is.  I also think that once they really start to look in to something they change their position based on new findings.  Remember when Obama said that he would pull the troops out in Iraq within a year now he changed it to where they are staying longer before leaving.  He also said he would close guantanamo bay but he backed off of that.  He also said he would find a way to go through the budget line by line to find ways to save money but so far intially with the financial reform and potential healthcare reform he is increasing the deficit.

People said that they didn't want a bailout for the banks and didn't like it but he said it needed to be done and got it done despite it being unpopular.  The majority of people want healthcare reform but he is having a difficult time getting it passed.

I don't know if they are passing legislation to keep the majority in line.  I think that they make difficult decisions based on what they think the country needs but might not necessarily want at the time.  There are also times where they make decisions based on what the majority wants and needs. But the majority of time now a days unfortunately I think its just politics and they pass legislation based on the lobbyist groups and political partners.  It comes down to reward your friends and punish your enemies too many times when it comes to the government.



lostintheodyssey said:
badgenome said:

lostintheodyssey said:

Bush is bad! His debt was bad! Democrats are good! Their debt is good! I have proof that the tea party is 150% white, but I won't link it because it's super secret! LOLOLOL!

Wow way to put words in someones mouth I just pointed out the fact that the budget was balanced before he got in there which is true.  I didn't say democrats were 100% good I just made the opinion that given time I believe the reform would pay off which may or may not happen and if it doesn't I wouldn't have a problem saying I was wrong.  And I can link the sites if you want be judging by your tone you would just say sites like bloomberg, university polls, etc were from the liberal media.  And I also notice where you ignored where I doubted the promise of Obama where he said he would withdraw the troops but you just see what you want to see.

 

Edit) Well I might as well do you as well.  I'm a white man from mississppi and I'm afraid of the hispanics coming in and taking over all of our jobs.  No matter what we must keep em out of our country.  Who cares if we may have falsified a war much like the Iraq war because we wanted to take California from them as well as Nevada and Arizona. The nerve of the government stepping in and trying to make things somewhat fair for all people in the country no matter their race, class, or religion we need to keep the government out of our lives so we go back to the old days when only a certain group could prosper and we could get away with whatever we wanted to. I also think that everything the modern republicans do is right and the tea partyers are my heroes. They say they are anti government and anti big business but they get elected and they expand the government, turn the other way when it comes to big business and raise taxes but that's ok I'm not going to hold them accountable for what they say I am just going to keep rooting for them. Because they are definitely better than those democrats. 

I'm going to pick the one poll where it says the party is similar to the demographics of america and ignore the other polls like cnn, bloomberg, and university polls that show that whites make up 88-89% of the tea party.  Clearly that is an attack by the leftist media with an agenda while the poll I picked doesn't have any agendas because I say so.  But even if the party was 150% white who cares I am white so they represent my america so who cares about those other groups anyway we should have kept them out of the country. 

Also I don't want to pay taxes for anything.  If I get hurt in an accident I don't need the police or hospital or any government services I can limp myself back home and treat my own wounds.  I don't need to call the police if someone breaks in to my home that's what my shotgun.  I don't want to pay taxes for education if I have kids I will put them through school and pay for it myself.  What do I look like I don't want to use my tax money to help others.  Helping others is unnatural and unhealthy for me.

See, there is a huge difference: you are psychoanalyzing a person about whom you know nothing, while I simply distilled your overly verbose bullshit down to its essence.

You might, I dunno... stop calling someone a racist for two goddamn seconds (if it's possible for a leftist to do that) and link these other sources you keep talking about?



(As usual) there seems to be a lack of understanding of libertarianism. In general libertarians tends to separate what they believe is right and what they thing the government should encourage or enforce; and you could say that a libertarian truly believes that the government should not be involved in legislating morality. It would be a fairly consistent position for a libertarian to be entirely opposed to something (say racism or forced racial segregation) and yet believe that the government has no right to force people to behave any differently than they are.