By using this site, you agree to our Privacy Policy and our Terms of Use. Close

Forums - Microsoft Discussion - NATAL : video showing on screen pointer display using hands

Herbie95 said:
Natal: Only does everything, including making you look like a retard flailing around in front of a screen.

Thats so original, I remember they said the same about the Wii and look how that turned out to be.



My Trigger Happy Sixaxis controller

 


                            

Around the Network
ZenfoldorVGI said:
God, it didn't look very precise. Let's hope that either the person playing it is a n00b, or they enhance it a bit before release.

PS: I hate motion controls.

I'm not sure but something tells me you do.



My Trigger Happy Sixaxis controller

 


                            

another ricochet demo??? the title said pointer screen display

is ricochet the new rickroll now?



WereKitten said:
JaggedSac said:

It looked like the bolded to me.

And the XY accuracy of Natal is around 3mm at 2m away from camera, based on the PrimeSense specs.  This would of course change if the FOV of Natal is different from the PrimeSense specs.  3mm is quite enough to make a real-time pointer, but it would not be pixel perfect.  I probably couldn't hold my hand still enough for pixel perfect anyway, as even the slightest shake would be displayed :)

It's really so short that I'm not sure about it being pointer or gesture based.

Anyway 3mm at 2m is the resolution of the camera. But the real resolution you could use for pointing with your hand would be the resolution of node positioning after the software processes the camera images to the 3d model. That's obviously quite a bit rougher, and we actually have some old numbers. I can't link to the original article, but didn't the main Natal dev talk to New Scientist about positioning limbs within a 4cm cube? That's probably the ballpark of your node resolution per frame.

Let's be optimistic and say that he meant a cube of 4 cm^3 volume and not a cube of 4cm per side. That would mean about 1.6cm linear resolution, ie if you map the screen to the position of your hand in a meter wide space, you get (1280/100)*1.6 pixel = about 20 pixel of error.

You can average n samples, of course, increasing the resolution by a sqr(n) factor, but adding lag for about n-1 frames. Thus you won't probably see anything better than 15pixels if we assume these are the numbers.

Two things.

What distance from the camera is he giving this estimation. ?

Secondly, the depth accuracy is around 2cm at the back end of Natal's range, this gives credence to that estimation.  I would hope that MS devs do not fuzzify the xy accuracy by a factor of 5 on the optimistic view, and 13 on the unoptimistic at 2m.



This is a video MS should at any cost bury if it wishes to play the cool factor.



Stwike him, Centuwion. Stwike him vewy wuffly! (Pontius Pilate, "Life of Brian")
A fart without stink is like a sky without stars.
TGS, Third Grade Shooter: brand new genre invented by Kevin Butler exclusively for Natal WiiToo Kinect. PEW! PEW-PEW-PEW! 
 


Around the Network

@JaggedSac
1) don't really know. I don't have access to the New Scientist article, and I only know the numbers from the article I linked. So I assumed it was an average scenario.
2) 4cm^3/2cm would mean 2cm^2 on the xy plane at far end of depth range, or 1.4cm linear error. Thus the resolution loss factor would be more 4.5 than 3. But it's still reasonable as it would mean having a 4-5 camera pixel margin of error on where the limb node is detected. Looks perfectly fine to me, as a wrist would be about 20-25 camera px wide and we're talking of fuzzy logic trying to pinpoint where the proper limb node is to be placed in that span.

Let's even say that 4cm^3 applies at top range, you still have a 0.7cm linear accuracy on xy plane at half that distance, ie you're still around 10 pixels of error on screen. And I've been very generous in using a meter wide space for pointing... to be comfortable you will probably only use about half of that, thus getting half the accuracy.

As I said, even assuming the best from the numbers we're told it sounds precise enough for GUIs, but certainly not as much as a wiimote for games requiring fast and precise pointing.



"All you need in life is ignorance and confidence; then success is sure." - Mark Twain

"..." - Gordon Freeman

That damn lag is destroying it. Without lag Natal would be incredible but with the 200ms lag we've seen so far it looks nearly unplayable.



I would say 1 meter is at the lower end of the space you would want to use to interact with a GUI using your hand as a pointer, regardless of accuracy. Once you get below that you are mapping small hand movements to big movements on screen and you get the reverse effect of having bad camera accuracy. A gestural based system would be better for smaller hand movements.

To be comfortable, you would want to use, IMHO, a two hand system where each hand can interact with an imaginary plane positioned in front of you, centered on the head. This allows for a larger area of interaction, and is somewhat intuitive.

As far as accuracy is concerned, we shall see.



^With a proper acceleration curve people can easily use a mouse or trackpad over a few inches of real space to map a computer screen at pixel-scale accuracy. Usability-wise moving your forearm from your hip over no more than say 60 degrees per axis is much less tiring than having to move your hands all over a huge virtual vertical plane.
But of course only time will tell, though I'd have thought that a shooter or RTS would have appeared among Natal tech demos if pointing implementations were trivial.



"All you need in life is ignorance and confidence; then success is sure." - Mark Twain

"..." - Gordon Freeman

WereKitten said:
^With a proper acceleration curve people can easily use a mouse or trackpad over a few inches of real space to map a computer screen at pixel-scale accuracy. Usability-wise moving your forearm from your hip over no more than say 60 degrees per axis is much less tiring than having to move your hands all over a huge virtual vertical plane.
But of course only time will tell, though I'd have thought that a shooter or RTS would have appeared among Natal tech demos if pointing implementations were trivial.

Keep in mind that Natal is measuring your hand position.  Moving a tiny amount with your mouse is much, much different than moving your hand a tiny amount in free space.

And there aren't tech demos of shooter(other than that Half-Life video) or RTS games as Natal is not aimed at that audience.  95% of games launched at release will be casual/party games.