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Forums - Gaming Discussion - "The Uncanny Valley". A study with CGI........Revisited!

a friend of mine said she feels the uncanny valley with the eyepet. It creeps her out because it has a human face.

We had an argument about it, if this can actually be referred as "uncanny valley", or if that is something entirely different, or if she is just crazy.



“It appeared that there had even been demonstrations to thank Big Brother for raising the chocolate ration to twenty grams a week. And only yesterday, he reflected, it had been announced that the ration was to be reduced to twenty grams a week. Was it possible that they could swallow that, after only twenty-four hours? Yes, they swallowed it.”

- George Orwell, ‘1984’

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Porcupine_I said:

its the voice! it's uncanny!

 

well, actually i remembered it when avatar was mentioned, and i refer you to the part where he explains how the navi have these cute animal features to appeal to the audience. i agree it has nothing to do with the Uncanny Valley, but with how to avoid it.

Ah, now I see what you/him are talking about.

Yeah, there's definitely stylization going on (and definitely stylization that helps the audience connect), but what makes the Na'vi different from other CGI creations such as those from Pixar films, is that they are based in the real world (albeit one in the future). They must abide by the same rules of physics and movement that we abide by, so there's the looming possibility that even with the stylization, the Uncanny Valley could happen with the slightest mistake. Even though the Na'vi are blue and ten feet tall and have animalistic features, they're still distinctly human (since they're based off the human anatomy). I was just saying how it was an impressive feat for WETA (these guys are geniuses by the way) to create a people that are distinctly human and yet all CGI... yet still look extremely believable.

Like I said, I've been looking for the slightest hints of the Uncanny Valley, and never found an example that took me out of the movie going experience (although there are a couple of parts that don't seem just right). There's been plenty of examples in previous movies where you make a mental note of "Oh, there's CGI". It's only a small portion, but for that second you're taken out of the total immersion of that movie experience. For Avatar to achieve what it did with today's technology (even with the stylization) is very impressive.



CGI-Quality said:

So you don't think our tech has caught up yet to what we need to make non-humans, "human"? If so, I agree and that's why I'll continue my studies.

We're getting there little by little. There's that one video of that woman in the seat talking to us, and then afterwards it's revealed that she's actually a CG mock up of the same person. It's very very (very) impressive... but once you take the time to analyze it, there's definitely some hints of the Valley popping in (I first saw "it" in her mouth area).

I mean, we're still focusing on the face when it comes to reaching the other side of the valley... there's still the rest of the body to deal with.

So keep going CGI, keep fighting with the spirit of vigor and truth! I need you... nay... the world needs you!

...

Erm... sorry... I got a little bit carried away.



Havent read it all or the comments yet but have to say I love these "uncanny valley" articles you post.



UGH! That Thriller video was super freaky! It seemed like the joints weren't deforming correctly in addition to the basic creepy animation.

Another example of the Uncanny Valley - The Curious Case of Benjamin Button: Sometimes the eyes just didn't look right on the old Benjamin. Too glossy or too big or something...

Here's the link to my friend's demo reel. Incidentally, he's the one who did the model of Song Hye Kyo that you posted in the OP (and she's in the demo reel). http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MFo_27csHTg  Uncanny or past the threshold? Some of the animation is not quite there, I think, but I think it's pretty good for being all hand animated.

 



Currently playing: Gran Turismo 5
Just finished:
Infamous 2

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CGI-Quality said:
Smeags said:
Porcupine_I said:

its the voice! it's uncanny!

 

well, actually i remembered it when avatar was mentioned, and i refer you to the part where he explains how the navi have these cute animal features to appeal to the audience. i agree it has nothing to do with the Uncanny Valley, but with how to avoid it.

Ah, now I see what you/him are talking about.

Yeah, there's definitely stylization going on (and definitely stylization that helps the audience connect), but what makes the Na'vi different from other CGI creations such as those from Pixar films, is that they are based in the real world (albeit one in the future). They must abide by the same rules of physics and movement that we abide by, so there's the looming possibility that even with the stylization, the Uncanny Valley could happen with the slightest mistake. Even though the Na'vi are blue and ten feet tall and have animalistic features, they're still distinctly human (since they're based off the human anatomy). I was just saying how it was an impressive feat for WETA (these guys are geniuses by the way) to create a people that are distinctly human and yet all CGI... yet still look extremely believable.

Like I said, I've been looking for the slightest hints of the Uncanny Valley, and never found an example that took me out of the movie going experience (although there are a couple of parts that don't seem just right). There's been plenty of examples in previous movies where you make a mental note of "Oh, there's CGI". It's only a small portion, but for that second you're taken out of the total immersion of that movie experience. For Avatar to achieve what it did with today's technology (even with the stylization) is very impressive.

So you don't think our tech has caught up yet to what we need to make non-humans, "human"? If so, I agree and that's why I'll continue my studies.

i believe the tech is there to make it possible, but the effort needed is to achieve it is still quite high, even in CGI, much more so in reality.

 



“It appeared that there had even been demonstrations to thank Big Brother for raising the chocolate ration to twenty grams a week. And only yesterday, he reflected, it had been announced that the ration was to be reduced to twenty grams a week. Was it possible that they could swallow that, after only twenty-four hours? Yes, they swallowed it.”

- George Orwell, ‘1984’

i do wonder what the reason is that the Uncanny Valley exists in the first place in our mind.

i believe most subconscious human behavior can be connected to basic survival instincts of the early Human race.

as example, the theory that humans respond with aversion to the sound of fingernails scratching over a chalkboard, is connected to high pitched warning cries of the early primate social groups.

i keep asking myself if the Uncanny Valley can be explained in such a way.

i came up with a few thoughts:

Anti-Social behavior: A individual who does not behave like the rest of the group is avoided and looked upon with suspicion. the group is the key to survival, anyone not fitting in, is a danger.

Diseases: Contagious Diseases might not be obvious, but can show subtle differences in appearance and behavior of the Individual. Better stay away from them.


and my favorite explanation:

THE GIANT SPIDER!
A yet to science unknown man-eating giant spider who's main prey is humans.
First they capture human girls and numb their body with their poison. then the spider climbs up a tree, attaches webbings to the girls limbs and body and lowers her down to the ground like a puppet on a string.
by manipulating the strings from above, the spider has the girl dancing, to attract male humans he will catch and eat subsequently.

Now, this third theory is the most probable i believe, because of 2 reasons:

1.) As stated, the Spider is a unknown species, which means it much have been extinct!
In conclusion: The Uncanny Valley has saved mankind from the Spider by teaching us to detect his bait!

2.) The Technique still exists today! Obviously modern Females have adapted to perform it without a spider!


thoughts?

..Ok, ignore the third theory



“It appeared that there had even been demonstrations to thank Big Brother for raising the chocolate ration to twenty grams a week. And only yesterday, he reflected, it had been announced that the ration was to be reduced to twenty grams a week. Was it possible that they could swallow that, after only twenty-four hours? Yes, they swallowed it.”

- George Orwell, ‘1984’

CGI-Quality said:
Porcupine_I said:
i do wonder what the reason is that the Uncanny Valley exists in the first place in our mind.

i believe most subconscious human behavior can be connected to basic survival instincts of the early Human race.

as example, the theory that humans respond with aversion to the sound of fingernails scratching over a chalkboard, is connected to high pitched warning cries of the early primate social groups.

i keep asking myself if the Uncanny Valley can be explained in such a way.

i came up with a few thoughts:

Anti-Social behavior: A individual who does not behave like the rest of the group is avoided and looked upon with suspicion. the group is the key to survival, anyone not fitting in, is a danger.

Diseases: Contagious Diseases might not be obvious, but can show subtle differences in appearance and behavior of the Individual. Better stay away from them.


and my favorite explanation:

THE GIANT SPIDER!
A yet to science unknown man-eating giant spider who's main prey is humans.
First they capture human girls and numb their body with their poison. then the spider climbs up a tree, attaches webbings to the girls limbs and body and lowers her down to the ground like a puppet on a string.
by manipulating the strings from above, the spider has the girl dancing, to attract male humans he will catch and eat subsequently.

Now, this third theory is the most probable i believe, because of 2 reasons:

1.) As stated, the Spider is a unknown species, which means it much have been extinct!
In conclusion: The Uncanny Valley has saved mankind from the Spider by teaching us to detect his bait!

2.) The Technique still exists today! Obviously modern Females have adapted to perform it without a spider!


thoughts?

..Ok, ignore the third theory

The first two theories are good, particularly the first.

Mine: the human brain can pick off something "not quite right" in an instant. The Uncanny Valley forces the brain to take on this real challenge. It's basically a tug of war and The Uncanny Valley is still currently winning.

Until we fully understand it though, it'll always be the victor. That's the purpose of my studies.

you make it sound as if the uncanny valley is something undesirable something that needs to be overcome.

 

but if any of my two serious theories are correct, it is a important instinct of human survival and might have played an important role to get the human race where it is today.



“It appeared that there had even been demonstrations to thank Big Brother for raising the chocolate ration to twenty grams a week. And only yesterday, he reflected, it had been announced that the ration was to be reduced to twenty grams a week. Was it possible that they could swallow that, after only twenty-four hours? Yes, they swallowed it.”

- George Orwell, ‘1984’

CGI-Quality said:
Porcupine_I said:
CGI-Quality said:
Porcupine_I said:
i do wonder what the reason is that the Uncanny Valley exists in the first place in our mind.

i believe most subconscious human behavior can be connected to basic survival instincts of the early Human race.

as example, the theory that humans respond with aversion to the sound of fingernails scratching over a chalkboard, is connected to high pitched warning cries of the early primate social groups.

i keep asking myself if the Uncanny Valley can be explained in such a way.

i came up with a few thoughts:

Anti-Social behavior: A individual who does not behave like the rest of the group is avoided and looked upon with suspicion. the group is the key to survival, anyone not fitting in, is a danger.

Diseases: Contagious Diseases might not be obvious, but can show subtle differences in appearance and behavior of the Individual. Better stay away from them.


and my favorite explanation:

THE GIANT SPIDER!
A yet to science unknown man-eating giant spider who's main prey is humans.
First they capture human girls and numb their body with their poison. then the spider climbs up a tree, attaches webbings to the girls limbs and body and lowers her down to the ground like a puppet on a string.
by manipulating the strings from above, the spider has the girl dancing, to attract male humans he will catch and eat subsequently.

Now, this third theory is the most probable i believe, because of 2 reasons:

1.) As stated, the Spider is a unknown species, which means it much have been extinct!
In conclusion: The Uncanny Valley has saved mankind from the Spider by teaching us to detect his bait!

2.) The Technique still exists today! Obviously modern Females have adapted to perform it without a spider!


thoughts?

..Ok, ignore the third theory

The first two theories are good, particularly the first.

Mine: the human brain can pick off something "not quite right" in an instant. The Uncanny Valley forces the brain to take on this real challenge. It's basically a tug of war and The Uncanny Valley is still currently winning.

Until we fully understand it though, it'll always be the victor. That's the purpose of my studies.

you make it sound as if the uncanny valley is something undesirable something that needs to be overcome.

 

but if any of my two serious theories are correct, it is a important instinct of human survival and might have played an important role to get the human race where it is today.

If we're trying to reach a point of bring virtual beings to "life" in a virtual world, it certainly needs to be conqured to do so.

i don't agree, all we have to do is achieve perfection in creating the virtual being in a way that it can act outside of the valley

 

... but this discussion actually helps me with MY uncanny valley problem



“It appeared that there had even been demonstrations to thank Big Brother for raising the chocolate ration to twenty grams a week. And only yesterday, he reflected, it had been announced that the ration was to be reduced to twenty grams a week. Was it possible that they could swallow that, after only twenty-four hours? Yes, they swallowed it.”

- George Orwell, ‘1984’

Thatmax said:
I'm hoping in the next few years peoples interest bends towards stylization rather than photo realism... mostly as I suck at 3D animation, and I want a job! lol.

I agree. Whilst I find photo realism impressive from a technical standpoint I find it rather dry and clinical. But then again I'm live action anyway so its not really an issue as much for me.