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aragod on 08 March 2010
Viper1 said:
aragod said:
Viper1 said:
1. I can list several dozen new IP's not yet released that say Hi.

2. Then explain why the Wii has relatively the same software attach ratio as the PS3?

As Chrizum stated, you may agree with some of his statements yet their factual basis falters heavily toward being false.

1. Most of the large publishing houses are abandoning the Wii after sales disappointment.

2. It's not about software attach ratio, it's about non casual game attach ratio (with the EXCEPTION for Nintendo titles OFC).

Madworld, Little King's Story, The Conduit, Muramasa, No More Heroes 1 + 2, Okami, Zack and Wiki - none of these games sold more than half a milion on 60+ milion console, what does that tell you? And these are one of the highest rated and best third party games on Wii

I have them, you might have them, a lot of people here will have them, but the other 68 000 000 people don't.

PS3 has a MUCH MUCH better attach ratio for third party games than Wii.

So I can very well understand his point. And if you've looked at some of the fact, you wouldn't be so sure to disregard them as beeing false. For the last year, there have been many and many news articles with western publishers and developers dropping Wii for new IPs.

1. Name me 1 big publisher abandoning Wii.  Just 1. 

2. MadWorld - The game that Sega stated sold in line with their expectations and are contemplating a sequel.  Also the best selling game from the former Clover Studios ever (prior to Bayonetta which had a much bigger marketing budget than Mad World)
No More Hereoes - Suda 51's best selling game ever.  I guess he should be disappointed?
Muramasa - Have you seen the sales data for the other games this studio has made?  Apparently not.
Okami - So Capcom takes a 2 year old port and has it sell better on the 65 million Wii than the 130 million PS2.  I'm confused how this is a bad thing.
Zack and Wiki - Can you show me any point and click games over the past several years on a home console to sell any better?

PS3 has a better attach rate for 3rd parties yet the Wii still sells more 3rd party software than PS3, has more million selling 3rd party games.....so again your point, and his, misses the mark.  

1) I never said that they are abandoning Wii, they are abandoning new "hardcore" IP development. We'll still get you third party games that sells more than third party on HD (= mini game collections, hoorah).

2) None of these games sold more than 0.5 m, some of them sold around 0.1-2 m, and these are not the only ones, add Tatsunoko-vs-Capcom, Dead Space Extraction and pretty much every other 3rd party title. I really don't want to do this, but I might scroll down whole metacritics top 50 to show you, that pretty much every decent third party game sold so little.

Show me a third party title with noticable sales, even better, new IP, that is not casual (< you know what I mean). One that isn't riding on it's name as established franchise (or it can, I still doubt there will be more than 1-2).



MY HYPE LIST: 1) Gran Turismo 5; 2) Civilization V; 3) Starcraft II; 4) The Last Guardian; 5) Metal Gear Solid: Rising

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Viper1 on 08 March 2010
aragod said:
aragod said:

1. Most of the large publishing houses are abandoning the Wii after sales disappointment.

1) I never said that they are abandoning Wii

Your 1 and 1 aren't adding up.

 



The rEVOLution is not being televised

aragod on 08 March 2010
Viper1 said:
aragod said:
aragod said:

1. Most of the large publishing houses are abandoning the Wii after sales disappointment.

1) I never said that they are abandoning Wii

Your 1 and 1 aren't adding up.

 

Maybe if you read the whole post, you wouldn't be doing fool of yourself right now:

For the last year, there have been many and many news articles with western publishers and developers dropping Wii for new IPs.



MY HYPE LIST: 1) Gran Turismo 5; 2) Civilization V; 3) Starcraft II; 4) The Last Guardian; 5) Metal Gear Solid: Rising

Smashchu2 on 08 March 2010
aragod said:
SaviorX said:
aragod said:
Viper1 said:
1. I can list several dozen new IP's not yet released that say Hi.

2. Then explain why the Wii has relatively the same software attach ratio as the PS3?

As Chrizum stated, you may agree with some of his statements yet their factual basis falters heavily toward being false.

1. Most of the large publishing houses are abandoning the Wii after sales disappointment.

2. It's not about software attach ratio, it's about non casual game attach ratio (with the EXCEPTION for Nintendo titles OFC).

Madworld, Little King's Story, The Conduit, Muramasa, No More Heroes 1 + 2, Okami, Zack and Wiki - none of these games sold more than half a milion on 60+ milion console, what does that tell you? And these are one of the highest rated and best third party games on Wii

I have them, you might have them, a lot of people here will have them, but the other 68 000 000 people don't.

PS3 has a MUCH MUCH better attach ratio for third party games than Wii.

So I can very well understand his point. And if you've looked at some of the fact, you wouldn't be so sure to disregard them as beeing false. For the last year, there have been many and many news articles with western publishers and developers dropping Wii for new IPs.

The whole ~65m userbase argument just doesn't work. Many games were made available on the PS2 and that has a ~130m userbase; they didn't all reach a million.

Besides, the only games that did not do well financially on that list were Little King's Story and Zack & Wiki. NMH2 is yet to be determined. We all know why those games didn't sell as well too.

The point is, that when such games don't perform well (I've listed 8 games from the top of my head, that are universally recognised as quality titles), noone will bother to push new IPs to the system. Casual games or mini game collections have sold over 3 milions. These titles are between 100 - 450 thousands. Clearly Wii has a different attach ratio to "hardcore" games than HD twins.

Can you tell my why those games didn't sell? I don't think it's a quality problem. It's a userbase problem.

@Arius Dion

1) Bayonetta is one example, that game has two main marketing flaws: a) offputing presentation b) female heroine, Darksiders who came at the same time as Bayonetta sold much better with worse ratings, the difference was > great presentation + male hero. Yes I know that this is rather simple try to explain it's flop, but I don't want to get into details.

2) If those games were on HD twins, they would look different and sold different. Look at Alien versus Predator, which is a crappy game, it sold more first week than Conduit LTD. That's why Conduit developer is going to release it's next game as multiplatform.

Wii exclusive owners should stop denying that it's the user-owner base problem, that they don't have more third party "hardcore" games. They keep bitching about how these games aren't good enough, otherwise they would sell gangbusters. That's bullshit. Publishers have realized that.

You are actually blaiming the user? Man, you've sunk far.

Consumers buy what they wish. If they like it, they buy it. If they don't like it, the wont buy it (if the price is too their liking). Obviouslly, they are not happy with the games released on the Wii. So they don't buy them. No matter what you think. those games that did not sell had a flaw the prevented people from buying it. The same is true of all games.

And no, people will still buy games with a female protaginist. Look at Tomb Raider.



aragod on 08 March 2010
Smashchu2 said:
aragod said:
SaviorX said:
aragod said:
Viper1 said:
1. I can list several dozen new IP's not yet released that say Hi.

2. Then explain why the Wii has relatively the same software attach ratio as the PS3?

As Chrizum stated, you may agree with some of his statements yet their factual basis falters heavily toward being false.

1. Most of the large publishing houses are abandoning the Wii after sales disappointment.

2. It's not about software attach ratio, it's about non casual game attach ratio (with the EXCEPTION for Nintendo titles OFC).

Madworld, Little King's Story, The Conduit, Muramasa, No More Heroes 1 + 2, Okami, Zack and Wiki - none of these games sold more than half a milion on 60+ milion console, what does that tell you? And these are one of the highest rated and best third party games on Wii

I have them, you might have them, a lot of people here will have them, but the other 68 000 000 people don't.

PS3 has a MUCH MUCH better attach ratio for third party games than Wii.

So I can very well understand his point. And if you've looked at some of the fact, you wouldn't be so sure to disregard them as beeing false. For the last year, there have been many and many news articles with western publishers and developers dropping Wii for new IPs.

The whole ~65m userbase argument just doesn't work. Many games were made available on the PS2 and that has a ~130m userbase; they didn't all reach a million.

Besides, the only games that did not do well financially on that list were Little King's Story and Zack & Wiki. NMH2 is yet to be determined. We all know why those games didn't sell as well too.

The point is, that when such games don't perform well (I've listed 8 games from the top of my head, that are universally recognised as quality titles), noone will bother to push new IPs to the system. Casual games or mini game collections have sold over 3 milions. These titles are between 100 - 450 thousands. Clearly Wii has a different attach ratio to "hardcore" games than HD twins.

Can you tell my why those games didn't sell? I don't think it's a quality problem. It's a userbase problem.

@Arius Dion

1) Bayonetta is one example, that game has two main marketing flaws: a) offputing presentation b) female heroine, Darksiders who came at the same time as Bayonetta sold much better with worse ratings, the difference was > great presentation + male hero. Yes I know that this is rather simple try to explain it's flop, but I don't want to get into details.

2) If those games were on HD twins, they would look different and sold different. Look at Alien versus Predator, which is a crappy game, it sold more first week than Conduit LTD. That's why Conduit developer is going to release it's next game as multiplatform.

Wii exclusive owners should stop denying that it's the user-owner base problem, that they don't have more third party "hardcore" games. They keep bitching about how these games aren't good enough, otherwise they would sell gangbusters. That's bullshit. Publishers have realized that.

You are actually blaiming the user? Man, you've sunk far.

Consumers buy what they wish. If they like it, they buy it. If they don't like it, the wont buy it (if the price is too their liking). Obviouslly, they are not happy with the games released on the Wii. So they don't buy them. No matter what you think. those games that did not sell had a flaw the prevented people from buying it. The same is true of all games.

And no, people will still buy games with a female protaginist. Look at Tomb Raider.

All I said was that the user determine whetever he'll get more or less "core" games.

Thanks for educating me on the mechanics of the market, much appriciated.

They are not happy with the games I've stated, yet they are happy with Carnival Games Collection XYZ... Clearly this game is flawless (judging by their critic ratings of >50) since they managed to sold 3 milions copies.

Tomb Raider isn't the best example I'd say, maybe that's why the latest announced title is called only "Lara Croft". The Bayonetta reference is beside point.

I'm trying really hard to point at the fact, that the OP was right with Wii acting like a virus, spreading mostly between non gamers thanks to the "Cool" moment from spending 20 minutes playing Wii Sports. Casual games like mini games collection are selling gangbusters, while quality "hardcore" titles are not. Try to think about this, that was my main point and concern 2-3 pages back.



MY HYPE LIST: 1) Gran Turismo 5; 2) Civilization V; 3) Starcraft II; 4) The Last Guardian; 5) Metal Gear Solid: Rising

Around the Network
LordTheNightKnight on 08 March 2010

"All I said was that the user determine whetever he'll get more or less "core" games."

No, the developers are deciding that, but cheating by releasing core games that don't have mainstream appeal, and ignoring the actual core hits. which should be deciding who gets those games.



A flashy-first game is awesome when it comes out. A great-first game is awesome forever.

Plus, just for the hell of it: Kelly Brook at the 2008 BAFTAs

Viper1 on 08 March 2010

Aragod, let me ask you which you think would have sold better on Wii.

Street Fighter 4 (the most well known fighting game series in history) or Tatsunoko vs Capcom (a fighting game with half the line up most of the world has never heard of)?

This exemplifies the point we're making. Some are making certain core games but in such a manner that it was doomed to fail from the start.



The rEVOLution is not being televised

LordTheNightKnight on 08 March 2010
Viper1 said:
Aragod, let me ask you which you think would have sold better on Wii.

Street Fighter 4 (the most well known fighting game series in history) or Tatsunoko vs Capcom (a fighting game with half the line up most of the world has never heard of)?

This exemplifies the point we're making. Some are making certain core games but in such a manner that it was doomed to fail from the start.

But even then, TvC is selling well, and Capcom has apparently stated so. Even Chop Till You Drop made money. So at least Capcom is learning.



A flashy-first game is awesome when it comes out. A great-first game is awesome forever.

Plus, just for the hell of it: Kelly Brook at the 2008 BAFTAs

Kwaidd on 08 March 2010

not that it makes any diff what i say or do cuz im only one man, but I have been a serious gamer since the early 80's and only own a wii this gen.  I put a ton of hours on it every week, and it's not on wii fit.  =p  I'm certain I'm not alone.

There are alot of people out there that prove this guy's bs, but there are a lot of others like me that prove it wrong.



PhalanxCO on 08 March 2010
aragod said:
Viper1 said:

1. Name me 1 big publisher abandoning Wii.  Just 1. 

2. MadWorld - The game that Sega stated sold in line with their expectations and are contemplating a sequel.  Also the best selling game from the former Clover Studios ever (prior to Bayonetta which had a much bigger marketing budget than Mad World)
No More Hereoes - Suda 51's best selling game ever.  I guess he should be disappointed?
Muramasa - Have you seen the sales data for the other games this studio has made?  Apparently not.
Okami - So Capcom takes a 2 year old port and has it sell better on the 65 million Wii than the 130 million PS2.  I'm confused how this is a bad thing.
Zack and Wiki - Can you show me any point and click games over the past several years on a home console to sell any better?

PS3 has a better attach rate for 3rd parties yet the Wii still sells more 3rd party software than PS3, has more million selling 3rd party games.....so again your point, and his, misses the mark.  

1) I never said that they are abandoning Wii, they are abandoning new "hardcore" IP development. We'll still get you third party games that sells more than third party on HD (= mini game collections, hoorah).

2) None of these games sold more than 0.5 m, some of them sold around 0.1-2 m, and these are not the only ones, add Tatsunoko-vs-Capcom, Dead Space Extraction and pretty much every other 3rd party title. I really don't want to do this, but I might scroll down whole metacritics top 50 to show you, that pretty much every decent third party game sold so little.

Show me a third party title with noticable sales, even better, new IP, that is not casual (< you know what I mean). One that isn't riding on it's name as established franchise (or it can, I still doubt there will be more than 1-2).

Here's the top 30 third party games listed on MetaCritic:

World of Goo (94) - WiiWare, no sales data
RB2 (92) - Sold on par with PS3 version
Okami (90) - Sold more than the PS2 version
Beatles: Rock Band (89) - Sold the most of 3 versions
GH5 (89) - Sold the most of 3 versions
NMH2 (88) - Just released, but no advertising
Tiger Woods 10 (88) - Sold the most of 3 versions
DJ Hero (87) - Sold worst, but all sold poorly
Z&W (87) - I'll give you this one. Should have sold better, but style probably put people off.
LKS (87) - See Z&W
Bomberman Blast (86) - WW
Lost Winds (86) WW
Boom Blox Bash Party (86) - Should have sold better no doubt
GHWT (86) - Sold the most of 3 versions
GH3 (86) - Sold the most of 3 versions
TvC (86) - Just released, give it time.
Tetris Party (86) - WW
MaBoShi (85) - WW
GH: Metallica (85) - Sold the most of 3 versions
Boom Blox (85) - Sold well enough for a sequel
Tales of Monkey Island EP4(84) - WW
PES 2009 (84) - Sold like crap, yes
Swords & Soldiers (84) WW
NMH (83) - Suda51's best selling game ever. Warranted the sequel
MLB Power Pros (83) - Outsold PS2 version
Mega Man 9 (83) - WW
Bully (83) - port of old game, but still made a profit at .44m
PES 2008 (83) - Sold like crap, yes
CoD:WaW (83) - Bad port with little advertising, still sold 1.42m
Strong Bad (83) - WW