But those are being base on other opinions of the game. Guess what, that's how I'm basing FFXIII is not that good of a game in terms of being a game. From what's indicated in all accounts, even from those that like it, the flow of the game turns out it's all about being flashy, with just some gameplay as padding between the cutscenes. And even though there are battles, it's more about being flashy as well, hence the faster battle flow.

You can think that, if you want. Your opinion and all. Even if you haven't played it.

I only brought Mario into it to shut milkyjoe up. He is basing his points from reviews, i can do the exact same thing for Ninty + Mario.

Unless everyone in the discussion has played FFXIII you're at a stalemate using the arguments that you are using.

But it could be argued that since the franchise is shrinking with each new game, it is  losing the potential to make new fans. I for example am interested in the older FF games because they seem simple and addictive, but FFVIII is the most boring game I have ever played. So while FF is losing it's ability to attract gamers, the latest Mario game is as good at making new fans as ever (looking at sales)

FF seems to mostly be relying on brand power or the franchise wouldn't shrink. The battle and experience systems are getting quirkier and unnessesary complex, like how spheres are supposed to represent XP and how I have to junction a huge ass monster (GF) to a character so that he can use items (WTF?). These changes are not making the games more fresh, all they do is to please a small group of people inside the FF player base while alienating players like me. In other words, new FF games suffer from bad design choices.

What we know about FFXIII is that it is more linear, has a chrystallium growth system that has to do with experience somehow, and that there seems to be a backlash from some reviewers in the west. The biggest argument that I have about FF games losing their quality is the sales of FFVIII. IT was incredibly hyped, more so than FFVII, and it sold much more in it's first months. But then sales died off quicker despite of the larger PS userbase and insane hype. the quality of the game must have put people off. Then after that, FF game sales became smaller and smaller. If FFXIII has the same type of quirky things that FFX and VIII has (to add to the linearity), then I could definately make a case that it is a worse game than earlier games like VII.

Just think of how the NES pas evolved into the SNES pad, and then into the N64 controller. Some love the N64 controller (post VII FF games), but it's needlessly complex and it puts many people off thus it is inferior to earlier Nintendo controllers. The SNES controller was the natural evolution, where simplicity and complexity were in perfect balance (FFVI, FFVII)

(My ramblings are a response to your entire discussion and not just this post)

It wouldn't bother me as much if THQ tried several times like Sega did and came up short (AFAIK Sega actually succeeded). However, they only failed once, and that was with Deadly Creatures. 50 different people on this website can acknowledge that the game had extremely limited appeal, to the point that even advertising it would  have been all for naught. I don't understand how some person from THQ can state that there is no audience when something niche like Tatsunoko vs Capcom sold more in two weeks than Deadly Creatures did in two years.

Honestly though, who would want to play a video game as a bug? Toy Commander, Jet Force Gemini, Project S.W.A.R.M., even primitive arcade games all concerned KILLING bugs, not being them. Who would want this anyway? Women/Girls? Scratch that off. People 50+? They are already hesitant to play videogames, let alone play grotesque insect games. Ten year old boys? I don't see how they could if the game got a T rating; the kid would have to go in the store with a parent, who would probably trust a good and lengthy Nintendo title rather than an 8 hour bug game. 18-34 demographic? Those that actually heard of the title (like me) were hesitant to even touch it, and the mediocre reviews completely put people off.

So with no logical fanbase to cater to, and no decent advertising to even try and make them aware of it, how the hell did THQ expect this thing to sell at all?

They have released 45 Wii games. With the exception of their yearly wrestling titles, licensed Nickelodeon games, Bratz/cheerleader/"girly" games, I only see one failure, and that is Deadly Creatures. de Blob was a success with two major flaws: The waggle jumping & the level length (70 minutes straight for one level?) So with one destined-to-fail game, THQ is somehow abandoning all support....... 1 game out of possibly 8 core titles fails and this is what they come up with.

If Capcom gave up on HD games after one failure,  they would've stopped dead cold early last year.

People are too obsessed with bringing huge blockbusters to the Wii. I'm happy with third party offerings on the Wii, i am also happy that this console is different than PS360 i really dont want this same games as HD consoles. Wii is succesful because its different and more accesible.

What i want is decent effort from third parties, games with enough budget and production levels, not On rail spin offs of HD franchises. Sega found success on the Wii because they create original and good games: Mario and Sonic Olympics (i dont care what critics say , but this game is the best party software ever, and its extremely fun with friends and family ), Madworld , House of the Dead.

MH and Tatsunoko vs. Capcom sales hopefuly showed capcom that their efforts paid off.

The big dogs of the industry wont suddenly change and switch to the Wii, they have their big market for their massive games on HD consoles. But they started seeing possibilities on the Wii as well and this is good. Wii gets great support from smaller studios: marvelous or suda

The industry is committing ritual suicide and it's fucking hilarious.

this is funny, make a game thats fun and not throw millions of dollars for something people could care less about the game, get people to know it, bam, A SUCESS!

I mean, nsmbwii did this, right?

I've stopped trying to understand the games industry, because they don't operate with logic, and they've made it clear time and time again they don't care about the gamers themselves, only pushing their own agendas. There is simply nothing more to be understood. They are just so full of shit. I've just accepted the fact that they are out of touch with reality, and moved on.

The games industry ignores the Wii at it's own peril. The HD consoles are making large game companies lose money. Eventually various big developers will be bankrupt with no one to blame but themselves. If they don't learn how to sell to the expanded audience they will perish.

They are a business and it is as simple as this, if the companies made a "hardcore" game for the Wii and it only sold 10,000 copies but made a profit, then they would continue to support these types of games. it is generated to the public that the game didn't sell well, which may be true, but it didn't sell well in relation to it's budget. They don't give a shit how many people bought the game as long as they make money on it.

Again, again, again, why are they going to continue to put effort into a market that isn't fully realized yet when they can put effort into the family market that works and has been a cash cow for many publishers. Does any one recall the comment made by a fired Sega employee about how they put no effort into their lastest Sonic offerings on the Wii because they know they will make the money back on the Wii to produce the HD versions? It is this mind sense that allows this to happen.

Please sit back and think, put yourself in this position, this is your money - you are losing money on the core and making money on the casual. Where are you going to go?!?! You aren't making games so they will be awesome and YOU can enjoy them, YOU are making games to make money! It is a business, no proper business plan encourages continuous losses.

When someone finally (if ever), breaks the market in the Wii other than the casual, they will see a large money flow. But right now, its not there, its not 3rd parties job to provide it, you say they should flourish the market with AAA titles on the Wii. Right now, from a business view, that is a large gamble and a ton of money to put in. The ball is in Nintendo's court, they need to flourish the market.

Honestly, I think Nintendo could be in trouble. It is easy to win over the casual, you've got a problem trying to entice the hardcore. Nintendo has snagged the casual first and hope that they hardcore will come later. Microsoft and Sony? They got the hard audience first...the hardcore. Guess what??? Drop some prices and add motion controls to these systems!? Oh yeah, that's happening. If they can produce a game like Wii Sports and produce buzz with a proper price point, where are the families and casual gamers going to upgrade to?

Nintendo sits back and says they don't need to upgrade the Wii and providing only HD isn't enough. It is enough, while motion controls provides this unparalleled immersion; you don't think that HD visuals and fantastic stories, solid frame rates, no pop ins, etc... set a level of immersion as well?