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Forums - General Discussion - Coronavirus (COVID-19) Discussion Thread

Nighthawk117 said:
Pemalite said:

Did he come out and say it?

Pretty silly to assume the CDC will get everything right going forward though... It is always smarter to work with multiple agencies rather than drop all your eggs in one basket.

Plus WHO provides a ton of logistical support and pathways of communication and information dissemination, it's about getting all of the worlds participating countries to work together to fight against an issue... If the Coronavirus is any example, some countries have done really well and those countries provide their successful methods to the WHO, who then go forth and work with less successful countries like the United States.

The US CDC is not perfect....nothing is these days...but, they do care about my country more than the biased WHO.

Just because the CDC will prioritize the USA first, doesn't mean the WHO doesn't care about the USA.

They have completely different geographical coverage and thus priorities... A pandemic needs to be fought world-wide to protect the USA, not just fought in the USA.

For example... We had no new confirmed cases of Coronavirus here yesterday or today and we are moving towards opening things up locally again having possibly "defeated" the virus... However because the United States failed to act swiftly and is unable to say the same, we cannot open our borders up to them and benefit both parties economically... And in part we are in this position because local governments and councils took onboard some advice from WHO as well as local agencies and outlets.



--::{PC Gaming Master Race}::--

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Pemalite said:
Nighthawk117 said:

The US CDC is not perfect....nothing is these days...but, they do care about my country more than the biased WHO.

Just because the CDC will prioritize the USA first, doesn't mean the WHO doesn't care about the USA.

In my opinion, based on the WHO's reaction to Covid-19, which we know originated in Wuhan, China....the WHO cares more

about China's interests than the USA's interest.  Again, just my opinion.



Pemalite said:
Nighthawk117 said:

The US CDC is not perfect....nothing is these days...but, they do care about my country more than the biased WHO.

Just because the CDC will prioritize the USA first, doesn't mean the WHO doesn't care about the USA.


Also, the CDC SHOULD prioritize the USA first...since they are entirely funded by the US taxpayer!!!



Guys and Gals, look....were going through some tough times. We all know this....But as an American citizen...


I trust the US CDC more than the unaccountable WHO. Just one man's opinion. God help us all in these tough times.



John2290 said:
Absolute power, what the fuck was he thinking. This is nearly as bad as the UK police service saying they'll pop out from behind a bush to get you even if you're in in the middle of nowhere. Ninja's we are, You won't see us coming until you see our shadow you sun bathing, picnic having, fun loving scum. They have all got to start showing a light hand before they go and start protest or riots and it'll all be for naught. I'd be surprised if people who are already locked down close to a month will make it much into may before things start erupting but go on with rethoric like this and keeping people "safe at home" will be the least of the immediate concerns.

Unless what I've seen was doctored, Trump initially gave a more legitimate response along the lines of 'the President has the power that the Constitution gives them', since he wasn't going to try and explain it all, not that he likely knows everything he can and can't do for sure anyway. Then after being pressed further, he does what he does best, and gives the reporter a ridiculous answer to run with, 'I have absolute power', which becomes the headline while the initial answer is swept under the rug like it never happened. lol.

SvennoJ said:
EricHiggin said:

I really don't like our Gov and JT leading it, but I don't put much blame on them this time around. Some, but not much. They initially handled it about the way I assumed they would, like many other first world countries. Nobody was going to jump to conclusions and risk being wrong. From a leadership perspective, it was far more likely they would wait till it got close before clamping down. That way they had a clear legitimate excuse to do so. Taking away peoples freedoms because we might end up with a problem, for around 1% of the country, typically doesn't go over well even in oh so forgiving Canada.

We also aren't anywhere near as densely populated as America, and our overall system is better built to handle crisis. Most times when America is hurting, we're not, or barely. Mind you, when America is thriving, we're only doing slightly better, unless you're smart enough to invest in American stocks.

The things I've been hearing are ridiculous though. A father and his two kids out walking some trail close to their home, with nobody else in sight, getting a $1000 ticket for not remaining indoors. The local county saying police will be pulling over random vehicles and if you aren't traveling for what they find to be valid reasons, you'll be sent home and fined up to $1000. The media now consistently saying that 'social distancing' could last up to two years. LOL. Give me a break. 

Meanwhile a somewhat local old folks home had like 50 deaths recently because the care workers have been allowed to cycle home to home due to temporary work hours, more easily potentially contracting it and spreading covid. Good thing someone paid close attention to making strict rules for those most in jeopardy. My lord.

One of the things I'm most worried about is this dragging on, and I have a hard time believing that's not going to be the case based on the illness. If everyone has to be locked down like this, then the UK had the right idea for the most part. Lock down the elderly and anyone with underlying illness, and let everyone else contract it and become immune to it. The way it spreads in lock down, should mean it spread like wildfire typically and would be gone in no time. At the very least, once medical supplies are built up, go with that approach, don't drag it out leaving everyone stuck at home.

When this is all over, Canada, and the rest of the world, better give China a swift non physical kick in the a** for letting it get this out of hand. They've been getting away with too much already, so if this isn't the final straw, then we might as well just give up and bow to them.

Those stories about getting fines were false though, the police doesn't have the power to do that. Only some local counties now have by laws to fine gatherings of 5 or more people. You can get a ticket from trespassing on closed trails, but you have to be convicted in court first, which are closed.

And true, the whole "It's just the flu" attitude which was very strong at the time made it very difficult for governments to act early. It was a no win situation, act early, prevent a problem and everyone blames the government for over reacting. However the government did drop the ball with testing, tracing contacts and tracking down community spread.

Back to letting it spread to build up immunity? I thought we were passed that as a viable option... Keeping everyone over 40 on lock down, how do you envision that? Then the 30 to 40 age bracket can still overwhelm the healthcare system.

For Ontario, if you let it spread again and get a peak of 40% infected:
20-29: 1.8 million -> 700k infected -> 8.5K hospitalizations and 420 in ICU
30-39: 1.7 million -> 680K infected -> 22K hospitalizations and 1100 in ICU
40-49: 1.8 million -> 720K infected -> 35K hospitalizations and 2200 in ICU
50-59: 2.0 million -> 820K infected -> 84K hospitalizations and 10,200 in ICU
60-69: 1.6 million -> 630K infected -> 105K hospitalizations and 28,800 in ICU
70-79: 0.9 million -> 370K infected -> 90K hospitalizations and 38,700 in ICU
80+:    0.6 million -> 240K infected -> 65K hospitalizations and 45,900 in ICU

Ontario has about 33K hospital beds, we only have 2.3 hospital beds per 1000 people, Ontario has the most overcrowded hospitals in the developed world.
Apr 3, 2020 - The province has an estimated 415 ICU beds available now, as the Ford government attempts to create the hundreds of new spaces.

If we hadn't been chipping away on healthcare for all those years we would be in a better position right now. It's not all our fault of course, brain drain has been a long term issue. Much better money to made in the US as a doctor, get your cheap education here, get a well paying much less stressful job in the states.

Suppressing it now, then improve testing and tracing to keep it down until a vaccine or better treatment options are available is the best strategy. For now half of those ending up in ICU don't make it, many don't even make it to ICU.

So more fake news from the MSM? I wish I could be surprised.

Pretty hard to blame the Gov initially for a lot of reasons. Once it's here, well, we're human beings and mother nature does her best to balance all herds. Assuming this was all natural that is. Gov's are in a new situation and trying to outsmart her, so it's not all that easy to lay blame.

If everyone most vulnerable is kept on lock down, as much as reasonably possible anyway, then why should the hospitals get's overburdened? The overwhelming majority of people wouldn't need hospitalization since they would be young and healthy. Anyone who doesn't want to risk it in those age ranges, let them make the choice to stay home. Let the rest fight it off like a common cold/flu while they all become immune to it, since they would be the type of people who are the most active and most likely to contract and spread it anyway. The ones who need more serious medical treatment can go to the hospital. Then if need be, lock things down for a couple weeks after it seems like the majority of these age ranges have gotten over it, to try and snuff the illness out once and for all. Then slowly open things back up to everyone. Some will still likely contract it here and there and may need to be hospitalized, but you've spread out the curve already so it shouldn't be a problem for the healthcare system going forward.

I'm not doctor or specialist, but it seems like the majority of the problem is the older age groups or underlying illness. It looks as though the most likely reason for the spread of the virus, has been from younger healthier people who aren't taking it as seriously because they can get away with it. The sooner they all become immune to it, the less likely they are to spread it to the elderly down the road. Which also means things get back to normal sooner than later. How long do you really think it's going to take to come up with a vaccine? Are we really going to keep things locked down for years until one possibly arrives? The experts have been saying this is going to keep happening more often with the way the world operates. Are we really going to just shut the world down for years every time this happens, more and more? How long before we shut things down because of the thousands or tens of thousands who die every flu season from the common flu?

Last edited by EricHiggin - on 15 April 2020

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John2290 said:
newwil7l said:

Please stop being ridiculous.

I'm not. Chinas silence in the week after Jan 14th will be what is will be looked back on as the catalyst for the war. It's nothing less than an act of war. If you think the US will stop at pulling WHO's funding and bringing back industry from China, you're the one being ridiculous. Purposeful or accident, doesn't matter, war has already been sealed as the outcome of this. 

It's you being ridiculous with your constant fear mongering bordering on the verge of advocating for conspiracy theories. And seem to be demonstrating a lack of understanding on how the world works.



SpokenTruth said:
EricHiggin said:

Unless what I've seen was doctored, Trump initially gave a more legitimate response along the lines of 'the President has the power that the Constitution gives them', since he wasn't going to try and explain it all, not that he likely knows everything he can and can't do for sure anyway. Then after being pressed further, he does what he does best, and gives the reporter a ridiculous answer to run with, 'I have absolute power', which becomes the headline while the initial answer is swept under the rug like it never happened. lol.

Except he reiterated and elaborated on it later. But you're just going to sweep that under the rug like it never happened.

Did you even read what I wrote? I can't believe you did, because your answer explains exactly what I said.

I'm not sure what you're trying to add here.



John2290 said:
SpokenTruth said:

Except he reiterated and elaborated on it later. But you're just going to sweep that under the rug like it never happened.

It makes a lot more sense today with the US intelligence brief being acknowledged. He's not only handling the virus and the economy but posturing to Xi, War's a coming. 

Trumps people in the know have been saying for a short while that he's a "war time President". Bannon especially when he's interviewed. Not like I think they're actually going to war physically, but I wouldn't be surprised if Trump finally puts the screws to China every other way he can once this is over.



EricHiggin said:

So more fake news from the MSM? I wish I could be surprised.

Pretty hard to blame the Gov initially for a lot of reasons. Once it's here, well, we're human beings and mother nature does her best to balance all herds. Assuming this was all natural that is. Gov's are in a new situation and trying to outsmart her, so it's not all that easy to lay blame.

If everyone most vulnerable is kept on lock down, as much as reasonably possible anyway, then why should the hospitals get's overburdened? The overwhelming majority of people wouldn't need hospitalization since they would be young and healthy. Anyone who doesn't want to risk it in those age ranges, let them make the choice to stay home. Let the rest fight it off like a common cold/flu while they all become immune to it, since they would be the type of people who are the most active and most likely to contract and spread it anyway. The ones who need more serious medical treatment can go to the hospital. Then if need be, lock things down for a couple weeks after it seems like the majority of these age ranges have gotten over it, to try and snuff the illness out once and for all. Then slowly open things back up to everyone. Some will still likely contract it here and there and may need to be hospitalized, but you've spread out the curve already so it shouldn't be a problem for the healthcare system going forward.

I'm not doctor or specialist, but it seems like the majority of the problem is the older age groups or underlying illness. It looks as though the most likely reason for the spread of the virus, has been from younger healthier people who aren't taking it as seriously because they can get away with it. The sooner they all become immune to it, the less likely they are to spread it to the elderly down the road. Which also means things get back to normal sooner than later. How long do you really think it's going to take to come up with a vaccine? Are we really going to keep things locked down for years until one possibly arrives? The experts have been saying this is going to keep happening more often with the way the world operates. Are we really going to just shut the world down for years every time this happens, more and more? How long before we shut things down because of the thousands or tens of thousands who die every flu season from the common flu?

There are a lot of assumptions in there. Things that all still need to be sorted out. Yes, people with comorbidities have a higher chance to need to be hospitalized, but the reverse is not guaranteed. It is not just fighting off the flu even though there are many with very mild symptoms. It can take a turn for the worse very rapidly.

The hospitals here are overcrowded with not much going on. When my wife had a very dangerous (rare) infection, she had to wait for 30 hours to get a room, in June. Eventually they put her in the maternity ward since there was some space available there. Our healthcare system runs at maximum capacity at the best of times. They sent her home very early as well, still had to go back to get a pick line installed and self administer antibiotics through a pump for 2 months.

How do you propose separating age ranges and people at risk from the young and healthy? They still need food, they have kids, parents, live together with others, visitation rights for divorced parents, doctors visits. We're not China, we can't just round up people, separate them from their family and isolate them in camps for a couple months while the rest works through it.

Then we have no guarantees yet that build up immunity actually works. What is enough exposure, how long does immunity last etc.

It sucks, it really really sucks. My wife is devastated, her home business is practically done. Can't sell anything anymore, can't get inventory. She has shipments of live plants from the US waiting yet no way to get it shipped here. Plant imports are closed down, normal mail is regularly getting decontaminated in a way anything living won't survive. She has the phytosanitary certificates all in order, yet the handling agencies are closed, so it will just sit at the border and die. All her money made last year invested in new stock to cross pollinate, no way to get it.



What I think is the only option is to get ahead of the virus with faster testing and better tracing of contacts. That cube that's currently being developed is supposed to be able to deliver test results within an hour. When we get the virus suppressed far down enough that we can get on top of tracing the chain of infection, we will be able to open things up again. People will still need to be diligent and practice social distancing just in case as well as report any signs of symptoms immediately. That way when a case is found, there will be less contacts to check and less chance it has spread already.

Life won't be back to normal until after a vaccine is readily available (1 to 2 years from now) but it doesn't have to be like it is now.



John2290 said:
EricHiggin said:

Trumps people in the know have been saying for a short while that he's a "war time President". Bannon especially when he's interviewed. Not like I think they're actually going to war physically, but I wouldn't be surprised if Trump finally puts the screws to China every other way he can once this is over.

That rethoric on a war on the virus is looking like a bad idea now, they should indeed pull back on that and nah, There is no other outcome than full on war when the masses catch up on this and anger starts to rise, The administration has started putting things in palce, we've seen the moves already with Trumps war on Madorro's drugs, It's the front line on Chinas doorstep and if Trumps and Xi's relationship really was going as well as he is saying, they wouldn't be showing their claws militarily in the SCS right now.

Trumps just flexing and Xi is just responding. America doesn't need all out war to fix their problems with China. Odds are good that some the rest of the world will be on board with helping America now as well, which will make it even easier, especially considering knowing how much a real war with China could hurt many other nations indirectly.

SvennoJ said:
EricHiggin said:

So more fake news from the MSM? I wish I could be surprised.

Pretty hard to blame the Gov initially for a lot of reasons. Once it's here, well, we're human beings and mother nature does her best to balance all herds. Assuming this was all natural that is. Gov's are in a new situation and trying to outsmart her, so it's not all that easy to lay blame.

If everyone most vulnerable is kept on lock down, as much as reasonably possible anyway, then why should the hospitals get's overburdened? The overwhelming majority of people wouldn't need hospitalization since they would be young and healthy. Anyone who doesn't want to risk it in those age ranges, let them make the choice to stay home. Let the rest fight it off like a common cold/flu while they all become immune to it, since they would be the type of people who are the most active and most likely to contract and spread it anyway. The ones who need more serious medical treatment can go to the hospital. Then if need be, lock things down for a couple weeks after it seems like the majority of these age ranges have gotten over it, to try and snuff the illness out once and for all. Then slowly open things back up to everyone. Some will still likely contract it here and there and may need to be hospitalized, but you've spread out the curve already so it shouldn't be a problem for the healthcare system going forward.

I'm not doctor or specialist, but it seems like the majority of the problem is the older age groups or underlying illness. It looks as though the most likely reason for the spread of the virus, has been from younger healthier people who aren't taking it as seriously because they can get away with it. The sooner they all become immune to it, the less likely they are to spread it to the elderly down the road. Which also means things get back to normal sooner than later. How long do you really think it's going to take to come up with a vaccine? Are we really going to keep things locked down for years until one possibly arrives? The experts have been saying this is going to keep happening more often with the way the world operates. Are we really going to just shut the world down for years every time this happens, more and more? How long before we shut things down because of the thousands or tens of thousands who die every flu season from the common flu?

There are a lot of assumptions in there. Things that all still need to be sorted out. Yes, people with comorbidities have a higher chance to need to be hospitalized, but the reverse is not guaranteed. It is not just fighting off the flu even though there are many with very mild symptoms. It can take a turn for the worse very rapidly.

The hospitals here are overcrowded with not much going on. When my wife had a very dangerous (rare) infection, she had to wait for 30 hours to get a room, in June. Eventually they put her in the maternity ward since there was some space available there. Our healthcare system runs at maximum capacity at the best of times. They sent her home very early as well, still had to go back to get a pick line installed and self administer antibiotics through a pump for 2 months.

How do you propose separating age ranges and people at risk from the young and healthy? They still need food, they have kids, parents, live together with others, visitation rights for divorced parents, doctors visits. We're not China, we can't just round up people, separate them from their family and isolate them in camps for a couple months while the rest works through it.

Then we have no guarantees yet that build up immunity actually works. What is enough exposure, how long does immunity last etc.

It sucks, it really really sucks. My wife is devastated, her home business is practically done. Can't sell anything anymore, can't get inventory. She has shipments of live plants from the US waiting yet no way to get it shipped here. Plant imports are closed down, normal mail is regularly getting decontaminated in a way anything living won't survive. She has the phytosanitary certificates all in order, yet the handling agencies are closed, so it will just sit at the border and die. All her money made last year invested in new stock to cross pollinate, no way to get it.



What I think is the only option is to get ahead of the virus with faster testing and better tracing of contacts. That cube that's currently being developed is supposed to be able to deliver test results within an hour. When we get the virus suppressed far down enough that we can get on top of tracing the chain of infection, we will be able to open things up again. People will still need to be diligent and practice social distancing just in case as well as report any signs of symptoms immediately. That way when a case is found, there will be less contacts to check and less chance it has spread already.

Life won't be back to normal until after a vaccine is readily available (1 to 2 years from now) but it doesn't have to be like it is now.

There are a lot of assumptions in general as a whole.

Hospitals around here aren't packed. They're pretty slow, and not just because everything else hospital related is getting put on hold. Instead of locking people down in denser cities, they should be allowing them to spread out. Those at risk then need to stay put however. Spread the individuals who need hospitalization over a broader area so the burden is shared more equally. The more spread out people were, the less risk of contracting it. Physical distancing right?

Let people make their own decision based on age and health. They know their own risks for the most part. People who have to go out and get stuff now, either are getting others to get it for them, or are going themselves anyway if they have no other choice, so that doesn't change much. People should also be covering up with whatever they can. It may not do everything, but it will help. Completely exposing yourself is just making it easier to contract.

I've read people are being tested for antibodies and have immunity so yes you can become immune. How long does that last? More than a week or two. You don't need experts to tell you that. If that's how are bodies worked, we'd all be screwed. We don't understand it 100%, but we also know what it's not.

No way will everyone get tested, or vaccinated. That's never going to happen and not because the system wouldn't be able to accomplish it, so letting it pass through the strong now and ending it or limiting it's weaker hosts after the fact makes more sense.

If this continues it's going to get out of hand. I've seen ever growing social groups planning protests if changes aren't made or the lock down isn't lifted, which will make things even worse for a while if they happen. The Gov's can't allow things to continue like this, and the people themselves won't allow it. Either a vaccine by chance shows up much sooner than later, or reasonable logical changes are made to the lock down, or people stop listening and things get much worse overall.