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The Rise of BS - Star Wars Epi 9 SPOILERS

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drkohler said:
So reading through this, I take it that
The movie "The Rise of Skywalker" is named like this because:
a) Nobody "rose"
b) There is no Skywalker
c) Just before going to print, somebody with a working brain cell (apparently rare in writing this movie) noticed the problem. So they added the girl's "I'm a Skywalker" line.
Does that sum it up?

Spot on.



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It's funny how those who talk about how people care too much about things tend to constantly talk about said things. Sure some people go as far as to make hollow death threats, but that's a minority. Most just leave their thoughts on the matter and that's it. Of course, one can't frame it for what it is, complaining that people have differing opinions. That sounds immature and petty, so one must pretend fandom hate is some big issue, despite it being easily ignored and actually being quite beneficial.

I continue to find the idea of hating on haters to be one that's very silly. They would have us believe it's bad to think critically and that we should be mindless sheep that buys everything our corporate overlords throws at us. That it's wrong to advocate for companies to do better for everyone, which includes those that hate on us for doing it, which is the real head scratcher here. They'd rather buy worse products than better ones but why? It'd make some sense if they had a stake in the company, but I imagine the majority I see doing this do not.

Anyway, bitching about fandoms is only a distraction from the real issue, being the quality of the product not meeting standards. Look at Mario for instance, another huge fandom yet the hate is no where near as high. Could be because humans somehow magically become more better when talking about Mario, or it's simply because Mario doesn't give people many reasons to hate by consistently putting out good products.



Shadow1980 said:

I really enjoyed TROS. I've seen it twice already and plan to go at least once more. I enjoyed the other Disney-era films as well. I hope to see more. I go to the movies to be entertained, and Star Wars has always delivered in that regard. Even the prequels were enjoyable, warts and all, and I still watch them all the time.

But it really seems that movies can't just be treated as entertainment anymore. They're dragged into these stupid internet culture wars (some of it political, some of it just bog-standard nerd wars). Grown people—grown people—took TLJ way too fucking personally. They're having white-hot rage over an entry in a kids' fantasy film series that's about laser sword-wielding space wizards, ragtag rebels, and comically evil Empires. TROS has been better-received, but it's obvious that some people really hate its guts as well. This is all just a rehash of the whole "debate" over the prequels and everything else that induced rage in certain parts of the fanbase. And it's not just Star Wars that gets this treatment, though Star Wars hate is certainly more visible because of the sheer size of the fan base.

I can only imagine what it must look like to an outside observer when they see someone get this bent out of shape over a movie, to the point where many find it necessary to churn out constant hour-long YouTube videos about how much they hate the movie, or to harass the cast and crew on social media, or to storm review sites en masse to bombard a movie's page with 1/10 scores, or to actively discourage others from even giving the movie a chance, or to write rambling manifestos. How did this get to become acceptable behavior? This level of hate towards a movie has gone beyond all reason and sanity, and is nothing short of a reflection of the worst aspects of fandom. I love Star Wars, but it's not something that defines me as a human being. They're movies. Fun movies, but movies nonetheless. If I see something I object to, I can get over it. To paraphrase Lando: I may not like it, I may not agree with it, but I accept it. I don't go on some damn fool idealistic crusade, demanding that directors get fired or whatever, and taking every chance I get to remind everyone how much I didn't like this, that, or the other.

Seriously, being a fan of Star Wars, and especially of Disney-era Star Wars, has been fucking depressing these past two years (although it's been pretty damn depressing in the past as well). It seems like every day I see something online that makes me go "This totally justifies the existence of the internet," only to later see something that makes me go "Okay. That's enough. Time to shut the whole thing down," and Star Wars "discussion" as of late has definitely been part of the latter. Toxic fandom has been an issue for way too long, and it's grown increasingly cancerous in this era of social media that we're in. I just hope that once enough time has passed between the sequels and now that cooler heads will prevail. The fury over the prequels when they were new was arguably just as bad, yet here we are 20 years after The Phantom Menace and people are far less hostile towards them. Nostalgia is a hell of a drug. Maybe in 15-20 years people will grow to appreciate the sequels more, though by then they'd be complaining about some new Star Wars film or show supposedly ruining the franchise forever, just like the fifty other times it was supposedly ruined forever.

It reminds me of Holden McNeil's line in Jay & Silent Bob Strike Back (a film that's now 18 years old):

"The Internet is a communication tool used the world over where people can come together to bitch about movies and share pornography with one another. ... This is a site populated by militant movie buffs: sad, pathetic little bastards living in their parents' basement downloading scripts and what they think is inside information about movies and actors they claim to despise yet can't stop discussing. This is where you go if you wanna hear frustrated would-be filmmakers mouth off with their two-bit, arm-chair-director's opinions on how they all could've made a better Episode One."

Well, at least everyone seems to enjoy The Mandalorian.

"Well, at least everyone seems to enjoy The Mandalorian."

>Unfortunate that Disney didn't make the sequels more like The Mandalorian and less like the sequels.



This was actually the first Star Wars movie I actually finished watching, because I went to the theather so I wouldn't walk away, and I thought it was decent, even if yes, I know nothing about the story of the past movies, but it was clear things were moving really fast in the story.
I liked both Rey and Kylo Ren, but 3CPO was the best.



You ever stop and think about how many times Chewbacca has been handcuffed or tied up? I'm actually starting to think that's his kinky fetish.



Twitter: @d21lewis  --I'll add you if you add me!!

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I wonder if the Mandalorian is good because there is no Jedi or even Sith in the plots at this point. Hell, Even having Baby Yoda (Yeah I know its not Yoda) starts to get people knickers in a bind when he does force healing based on current lore. Its never explained in the show but when force powers, your Space sword welding wizards are part of the plot, it seems the nerd police come out in force.

Back on topic, I am surprised no one talked about the yellow lightsaber Rey is sporting at the end of the movie.



Machiavellian said:
I wonder if the Mandalorian is good because there is no Jedi or even Sith in the plots at this point. Hell, Even having Baby Yoda (Yeah I know its not Yoda) starts to get people knickers in a bind when he does force healing based on current lore. Its never explained in the show but when force powers, your Space sword welding wizards are part of the plot, it seems the nerd police come out in force.

Back on topic, I am surprised no one talked about the yellow lightsaber Rey is sporting at the end of the movie.

Which is great. Yellow is my favorite color for a lightsaber in games where I can pick one. I'm glad it's finally movie-canon.



Shadow1980 said:

I really enjoyed TROS. I've seen it twice already and plan to go at least once more. I enjoyed the other Disney-era films as well. I hope to see more. I go to the movies to be entertained, and Star Wars has always delivered in that regard. Even the prequels were enjoyable, warts and all, and I still watch them all the time.

But it really seems that movies can't just be treated as entertainment anymore. They're dragged into these stupid internet culture wars (some of it political, some of it just bog-standard nerd wars). Grown people—grown people—took TLJ way too fucking personally. They're having white-hot rage over an entry in a kids' fantasy film series that's about laser sword-wielding space wizards, ragtag rebels, and comically evil Empires. TROS has been better-received, but it's obvious that some people really hate its guts as well. This is all just a rehash of the whole "debate" over the prequels and everything else that induced rage in certain parts of the fanbase. And it's not just Star Wars that gets this treatment, though Star Wars hate is certainly more visible because of the sheer size of the fan base.

I can only imagine what it must look like to an outside observer when they see someone get this bent out of shape over a movie, to the point where many find it necessary to churn out constant hour-long YouTube videos about how much they hate the movie, or to harass the cast and crew on social media, or to storm review sites en masse to bombard a movie's page with 1/10 scores, or to actively discourage others from even giving the movie a chance, or to write rambling manifestos. How did this get to become acceptable behavior? This level of hate towards a movie has gone beyond all reason and sanity, and is nothing short of a reflection of the worst aspects of fandom. I love Star Wars, but it's not something that defines me as a human being. They're movies. Fun movies, but movies nonetheless. If I see something I object to, I can get over it. To paraphrase Lando: I may not like it, I may not agree with it, but I accept it. I don't go on some damn fool idealistic crusade, demanding that directors get fired or whatever, and taking every chance I get to remind everyone how much I didn't like this, that, or the other.

Seriously, being a fan of Star Wars, and especially of Disney-era Star Wars, has been fucking depressing these past two years (although it's been pretty damn depressing in the past as well). It seems like every day I see something online that makes me go "This totally justifies the existence of the internet," only to later see something that makes me go "Okay. That's enough. Time to shut the whole thing down," and Star Wars "discussion" as of late has definitely been part of the latter. Toxic fandom has been an issue for way too long, and it's grown increasingly cancerous in this era of social media that we're in. I just hope that once enough time has passed between the sequels and now that cooler heads will prevail. The fury over the prequels when they were new was arguably just as bad, yet here we are 20 years after The Phantom Menace and people are far less hostile towards them. Nostalgia is a hell of a drug. Maybe in 15-20 years people will grow to appreciate the sequels more, though by then they'd be complaining about some new Star Wars film or show supposedly ruining the franchise forever, just like the fifty other times it was supposedly ruined forever.

It reminds me of Holden McNeil's line in Jay & Silent Bob Strike Back (a film that's now 18 years old):

"The Internet is a communication tool used the world over where people can come together to bitch about movies and share pornography with one another. ... This is a site populated by militant movie buffs: sad, pathetic little bastards living in their parents' basement downloading scripts and what they think is inside information about movies and actors they claim to despise yet can't stop discussing. This is where you go if you wanna hear frustrated would-be filmmakers mouth off with their two-bit, arm-chair-director's opinions on how they all could've made a better Episode One."

Well, at least everyone seems to enjoy The Mandalorian.

People tend to get super invested in quality content that they love. The flipside of that is, while their love can be intense, so can their hatred. Two sides of the same coin and all.. There's also a feeling of personal attack if someone dislikes content overs love or if said content has seemingly gone down in quality - it's largely the same with video game consoles. People have some sort of investment in the product (on a personal and/or financial level), and if said product/content/whatever is "attacked" they feel it's a personal slight on them.

We're also just a very bored, overprivileged society as a whole these days. Most of us (at least younger folks) have never known the real hardship of something like war, famine, economic depression, etc, so we turn to frivolous shit to bitch about because that's about all there is these days for many of us in the Western world.. And hell, I include myself in this, and I have been guilty of the same somewhat. Outside of having mountains of student loans up the ass, I'm a pretty comfortable middle class dude with a decent life XD.

I have mixed feelings on this idea of "toxic fandom." I certainly agree that fans should definitely NOT be harassing or flinging insults at people to their face (whether it be the cast or other fans) for most anything related to entertainment - that idea is absurd to me and just screams immaturity and toxicity. But fans simply making youtube videos or ranting about the product ITSELF I think is fine, in fact it's potentially great! Art should be critiqued, as it opens discussion and potentially allows artists and their work to grow and evolve. It's freedom of speech, which is particularly justified in cases where the consumer is spending their time and money on a product. They have every right to voice their opinion, even if it's an extremely harsh or passionate one.

But again, where *I* have beef is if fans are attacking other fans or the artists/performers/content creators themselves - whether it be TLJ fans baselessly claiming "sexism" or "immature manchildren" or whatever to those who (I believe rightfully) weren't keen on Last Jedi, or old school Star Wars nerds attacking the cast, writers, director, or fans of the NEW stuff, etc. Criticize the art all you want. Spend hours on it, be passionate about it, shout it from the rooftops. Hell, this dude on youtube, Mauler, has like a 6 hour critique of the Last Jedi as well as an hour of just raw ranting of each event of TLJ. I'm not terribly proud to admit this but I watched it all and actually found it entertaining lol.

Attack the ART, not the FANS nor the ARTIST (unless said artist is baselessly/unjustly attacking the fans FIRST - which I actually HAVE seen a bit in a few cases lately). That's the separation I make, and it should be the one everyone makes.

We seem to be increasingly forgetting the very simple concept of live and let live. This is particularly worrying, and asinine considering this is seemingly even becoming the case for the harmless ENTERTAINMENT we prefer now...

Last edited by DarthMetalliCube - on 31 December 2019

I'd like to briefly resurrect this thread to declare victory on a point I had made earlier that was baselessly disputed here.

Among the topics we debated here on this thread was that of whether and to what extent moviegoing audiences enjoyed The Rise of Skywalker. I pointed to exit polls of opening weekend theater attendees (as in sources like Comscore's PostTrak survey and the CinemaScore letter-grading exit poll), all of which indicated this to be the most disliked entry in the current trilogy. Some people (I believe it was originally @Hiku specifically) disputed by highlighting the 86% audience approval score for the film on Rotten Tomatoes. I pointed out that, unlike exit polls, the Rotten Tomatoes "audience" approval score is just an online system that doesn't verify you actually saw the movie. People responded to this with non-quantified claims of the opinions they're seeing on their social medias, and it went on from there. It was a debate over how public opinion about movies can best be gauged.

Alright, people can argue with the findings of surveys I guess, but it's tough to argue with what actual ticket sales suggest. Trends in ticket sales over time are the most concrete proof there is as to just what kind of word of mouth is getting around about a given film. Opening weekend ticket sales can be written off to pre-release hype and maybe even second weekend ticket sales to an extent too, but by the third weekend, we're definitely mostly talking about the impact of word of mouth. And we now have that data. Here are the trends in domestic ticket sales for The Rise of Skywalker so far, measured on a weekend-by-weekend basis, compared to The Last Jedi:

Opening Weekend

The Last Jedi: $220 million
Rise of Skywalker: $177 million

Weekend 2 Drop

The Last Jedi: -67%
Rise of Skywalker: -59%

Weekend 3 Drop

The Last Jedi: -27%
Rise of Skywalker: -52%

In other words, The Rise of Skywalker is now dropping twice as fast as The Last Jedi did at the aligned point relative to original release, and from a lower baseline at that. It definitely won't catch up to The Last Jedi's total ticket sales. And that breaks with Star Wars tradition, it's worth noting. In both of the previous Star Wars film trilogies, the third and concluding installment outsold the middle one. This will be the first Star Wars trilogy wherein the middle installment, which always leaves you hanging, is more commercially successful than the 'satisfying' finale.

This trend aligns with the exit poll data I highlighted before. It does NOT align with the 86% "audience" approval score on Rotten Tomatoes. Case closed on which sources are more reliable gauges of audience opinion.

Last edited by Jaicee - on 07 January 2020

Jaicee said:

I'd like to briefly resurrect this thread to declare victory on a point I had made earlier that was baselessly disputed here.

Among the topics we debated here on this thread was that of whether and to what extent moviegoing audiences enjoyed The Rise of Skywalker. I pointed to exit polls of opening weekend theater attendees (as in sources like Comscore's PostTrak survey and the CinemaScore letter-grading exit poll), all of which indicated this to be the most disliked entry in the current trilogy. Some people (I believe it was originally @Hiku specifically) disputed by highlighting the 86% audience approval score for the film on Rotten Tomatoes. I pointed out that, unlike exit polls, the Rotten Tomatoes "audience" approval score is just an online system that doesn't verify you actually saw the movie. People responded to this with non-quantified claims of the opinions they're seeing on their social medias, and it went on from there. It was a debate over how public opinion about movies can best be gauged.

Alright, people can argue with the findings of surveys I guess, but it's tough to argue with what actual ticket sales suggest. Trends in ticket sales over time are the most concrete proof there is as to just what kind of word of mouth is getting around about a given film. Opening weekend ticket sales can be written off to pre-release hype and maybe even second weekend ticket sales to an extent too, but by the third weekend, we're definitely mostly talking about the impact of word of mouth. And we now have that data. Here are the trends in domestic ticket sales for The Rise of Skywalker so far, measured on a weekend-by-weekend basis, compared to The Last Jedi:

Opening Weekend

The Last Jedi: $220 million
Rise of Skywalker: $177 million

Weekend 2 Drop

The Last Jedi: -67%
Rise of Skywalker: -59%

Weekend 3 Drop

The Last Jedi: -27%
Rise of Skywalker: -52%

In other words, The Rise of Skywalker is now dropping twice as fast as The Last Jedi did at the aligned point relative to original release, and from a lower baseline at that. It definitely won't catch up to The Last Jedi's total ticket sales. And that breaks with Star Wars tradition, it's worth noting. In both of the previous Star Wars film trilogies, the third and concluding installment outsold the middle one. This will be the first Star Wars trilogy wherein the middle installment, which always leaves you hanging, is more commercially successful than the 'satisfying' finale.

This trend aligns with the exit poll data I highlighted before. It does NOT align with the 86% "audience" approval score on Rotten Tomatoes. Case closed on which sources are more reliable gauges of audience opinion.

Once again, you're reading something the data doesn't actually show. Ticket sales are just that, ticket sales, they are not thoughts or opinions. They can only definitively show how many people went to see the movie. They do not show whether or not those people enjoyed the movie in the way a review site can. You claim bad word of mouth from people who saw the movie is what made the difference in sales, a fair assumption, but an assumption nonetheless. I can similarly say that it's the TLJ to blame for lower interest in TROS.

Now don't get me wrong, I'm only here to point out what I said in my first sentence. I've no interest in debating which movie is worse when both are trash, and arguing over audience reception is just silly.