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Locked: What is Gender?

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Qwark said:
A collection of stereotypes of male and female behaviour. Which happens to be for 99% accurate. Since less than 1% of US is population does identify with the gender they are born with.

I don't know about that. There's a heavy age skew to that data, with younger people being significantly more likely to identify themselves as trans in some way. There's also an interesting skew in terms of sex. Apparently 73% of trans-identified people overall are biologically male, while about 70% of trans-identified youth are biologically female, and more specifically would otherwise identify themselves as bisexual or lesbian in terms of orientation. These types of statistical skews hint at the superficiality of gender identity as a concept in my mind, and at minimum merit further scientific investigation, I believe.

Bottom line: I think the popularization of transgender politics of late is mainly owed to social media, that it is a growing trend that will increasingly affect public policy going forward, and that more and more people are going to identify themselves in these sorts of ways as this trend continues. Don't bet on that statistic remaining the same for long.

Last edited by Jaicee - on 02 June 2019

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o_O.Q said:
Flilix said:

"These four should be sufficient. All the others are people who struggle to find  their identity, so they try to push themselves in categories. I don't think this is very useful (especially since a lot of them basically mean the same thing), and I also don't think it's a very healthy thing for these people to do."

so if someone wants to be a unicorn, for example, the other people around them should be expected to play along with that?

Depends on how serious they are about it.

But what does that have to do with what I said?



I think the best distinction alongside which we can separate sex and gender is the material and ideal distinction.
Sex is our own material reality. You are born physically a man or a woman (or intersex in exceptional cases).
Gender is the ideal reflection of that material reality. What social structures are build around us being male or female? What is expected of us as a male or female? How are our individual thoughts structured in relation to the gender structures of society.
The problem we encounter is the same as the use of the words "race" and "ethnicity". They're being used interchangeably, leading to people getting confused and even angry over the concepts.
People have especially poor ideas around what gender as a constructed reality means. People thing "Well, if Gender is a construct, I can be/ choose to be/ make the term out to be anything". leading to confusing unscientific ideas like the gender spectrum, which disassociates the gender idea from the material sex, rendering the term practically useless.



Cobretti2 said:
OR WE CAN GO WITH THIS


Woman: A person born as a female, and who identifies as female.

Man: A person born as a male, and who identifies as a male.

Transgender Man: A person who was assigned female at birth, but now identifies as a man. Some trans people choose to undergo gender reassignment surgery. Others prefer not to, but still identify as a different gender.

Transgender Woman: A person who was assigned male at birth, but who identifies as a woman. As above, some trans people choose to undergo gender reassignment surgery. Others prefer not to, but still identify as a different gender.

Trans person: This can mean transsexual or transgender. A transsexual is a person who emotionally and psychologically feels that they belong to the opposite sex.

Trans Man: A trans man is someone who was assigned female at birth, but now identifies as a man.

Trans Woman: A person who was assigned male at birth, but who identifies as a woman

Female to Male: This term is often abbreviated to ‘FTM’ and refers to a transsexual or a transgender man.

Male to Female: This term is often abbreviated to ‘FTM’ and refers to a transsexual or a transgender female.

Transsexual: A person who emotionally and psychologically feels that they belong to the opposite sex. Transsexuals are people who transition from one sex to another, usually through dress, hormone therapy, etc.

Cisgender: A person who identifies with the gender of which they were born. For example, if someone is born as a female and identifies as a woman.

Cis Female: Cis is short for cisgender. So a cisgender female is a female who identifies as a woman.

Cis Male: Cis is short for cisgender. A cisgender male is a male who identifies as a man.

Gender Non-Conforming: A person who does not identify with either the male of female genders.

None Gender: A person who does not identify with any gender in particular.

Non-Binary: A person who does not identify entirely with either the female or male genders. They may identify somewhere on a spectrum.

Neutrois: Neutrois is a non-binary gender identity which is considered to be a neutral or null gender.

Genderfluid: A person who does not identify entirely with either the female or male genders. Genderqueer: An overarching term used to describe people who do not identify exclusively as either male or female.

Demigender: This term, (demi means half) is an umbrella term for nonbinary gender identities that have a partial connection to a certain gender.

Demigirl: A person (can also be called a demiwoman or a demifemale) who identifies partially with being a woman or has feminine characteristics. They may have been assigned female as birth, but they could also have been born as a male.

Demiboy: A person (can also be called a demiman or demimale) who identifies partially with being a man or masculine characteristics. They may have been assigned male at birth, but they could also have been born as a female.

Agender: This literally means ‘without gender’, so a person who doesn’t identify with any gender.

Intergender: Intergender people have a gender identity that is in the middle between the binary genders of female and male, and may be a mix of both.

Intersex: A person who is born with the reproductive anatomy of both a man and a woman. For example, they might appear to be female on the outside, but have mostly male-typical anatomy on the inside. These people were previously referred to as hermaphrodites, but that term is considered rude and outdated.

Pangender: A person who identifies as more than one gender.

Poligender: Translates to ‘many genders’. A person who identifies as more than one gender.

Omnigender: Translates to ‘all genders’. A person who identifies as more than one gender.

Bigender: Translates to ‘two genders’. A person who identifies as both male and female genders. Some bigender people have two distinct male and female personas.

Androgyne: A person who doesn’t identify with either gender. They are both feminine and masculine.

Androgyny: The combination of masculine and feminine characteristics. Androgyny can apply to many things - someone’s gender identity, sexual identity, and even fashion.

Third Gender: People who identify as neither a man nor a woman. Some cultures refer to some of their people by a third gender. For example, in Samoafa’afafines are male at birth, but if a family had more boys than girls and needed more women to help with housework, they male children would be raised as a fa’afafine.

Trigender: Translates to three genders. A person who shifts between the male, female and third genders.


https://www.lifehacker.com.au/2016/07/explained-the-33-gender-identities-recognised-by-the-2016-australian-sex-survey/

This is ridiculous

Transgender Man/Trans Man/Female-to-Male and Transgender Woman/Trans Woman/Male-to-Female are describing the same exact things.

Woman/Cis-woman and Man/Cis-man are also describing the same thing.

Trans Person/Transsexual/Cisgender are all blanket terms that describe other genders and are moot.

Literally everything else is an attempt to describe the same phenomenon of having no gender or having equal parts feminine and masculine...

Except for the ludicrous ones describing a "third" gender, which isn't a thing.



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Jaicee said:
sundin13 said:


I really don't understand the fervor with which people insist that these two concepts are the same... They are just words. Everybody should agree that these two facets of maleness/femaleness exist (as it is self-evident). Gender and sex are the words that have been chosen to speak about them.

If they were "just words", they wouldn't be informing public policy so much as present.

It matters because society does not shape its public policies based on both of those definitions (sex and gender) combined, but based on one or the other definition strictly (sex or gender). When the subjective definition (gender) becomes the prevailing one, public policy problems are had, I feel, in the sense that, for instance, single-sex spaces now get disingenuously redefined as a form of discrimination against "certain women" or "certain men", as applicable, with the negative consequences falling one-sidedly on women (by which I mean biological females) across the board.

This for me isn't about the semantics of which pronouns to use. It's about whether women specifically will have such basic entitlements as the right to privacy, to safety, to fair play, or to freedom of speech and association going forward.

The example that I immediately think of is bathrooms, and I find the fear over allowing transgendered individuals into bathrooms corresponding with the identified gender absolutely ridiculous and overblown, so you will have to elaborate a little more if you want to argue that point...



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Jaicee said:
Qwark said:
A collection of stereotypes of male and female behaviour. Which happens to be for 99% accurate. Since less than 1% of US is population does identify with the gender they are born with.

I don't know about that. There's a heavy age skew to that data, with younger people being significantly more likely to identify themselves as trans in some way. There's also an interesting skew in terms of sex. Apparently 73% of trans-identified people overall are biologically male, while about 70% of trans-identified youth are biologically female, and more specifically would otherwise identify themselves as bisexual or lesbian in terms of orientation. These types of statistical skews hint at the superficiality of gender identity as a concept in my mind, and at minimum merit further scientific investigation, I believe.

Bottom line: I think the popularization of transgender politics of late is mainly owed to social media, that it is a growing trend that will increasingly affect public policy going forward, and that more and more people are going to identify themselves in these sorts of ways as this trend continues. Don't bet on that statistic remaining the same for long.

The amount of trans people will increase I simply doubt if will ever surpass the 2% limit. In which case we can actually call it common. Although its interesting that young trans people are mostly lesbian or bisexual female. (Which is about as non relevant as your genitals when it comes to gender).

If gender is the sort of speak societal man identity and the societal woman identity than those are continually evolving. So it could also happen that the definition of the male and female identity are becomer bigger so more people fit into them.

If you where gay 60 years ago a big part of society would not consider you a man. Today you can be gay (of queer or whatever) and still be considered male.

The same could happen for many females who don't think they are typically femine/women-like. Women in general are way more open minded when it comes to sex anyways. Doesn't make then less of a woman though. So perhaps of that gets more acceptance more females will identify as woman again. Or there will be a lot more transgenders from this point onwards. 



Please excuse my (probally) poor grammar

What isnt gender



Jaicee said:
sundin13 said:


I really don't understand the fervor with which people insist that these two concepts are the same... They are just words. Everybody should agree that these two facets of maleness/femaleness exist (as it is self-evident). Gender and sex are the words that have been chosen to speak about them.

If they were "just words", they wouldn't be informing public policy so much as present.

It matters because society does not shape its public policies based on both of those definitions (sex and gender) combined, but based on one or the other definition strictly (sex or gender). When the subjective definition (gender) becomes the prevailing one, public policy problems are had, I feel, in the sense that, for instance, single-sex spaces now get disingenuously redefined as a form of discrimination against "certain women" or "certain men", as applicable, with the negative consequences falling one-sidedly on women (by which I mean biological females) across the board.

This for me isn't about the semantics of which pronouns to use. It's about whether women specifically will have such basic entitlements as the right to privacy, to safety, to fair play, or to freedom of speech and association going forward.

Why do you think any of these things are attacked by transgender people? What would be an instance where the interests of feminists and transgender rights activists collided?



MrWayne said:
Jaicee said:

If they were "just words", they wouldn't be informing public policy so much as present.

It matters because society does not shape its public policies based on both of those definitions (sex and gender) combined, but based on one or the other definition strictly (sex or gender). When the subjective definition (gender) becomes the prevailing one, public policy problems are had, I feel, in the sense that, for instance, single-sex spaces now get disingenuously redefined as a form of discrimination against "certain women" or "certain men", as applicable, with the negative consequences falling one-sidedly on women (by which I mean biological females) across the board.

This for me isn't about the semantics of which pronouns to use. It's about whether women specifically will have such basic entitlements as the right to privacy, to safety, to fair play, or to freedom of speech and association going forward.

Why do you think any of these things are attacked by transgender people? What would be an instance where the interests of feminists and transgender rights activists collided?

how do you differentiate between men and women?



o_O.Q said:
MrWayne said:

Why do you think any of these things are attacked by transgender people? What would be an instance where the interests of feminists and transgender rights activists collided?

how do you differentiate between men and women?

Why are you answering with questions?