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GoT season 8 final episode 6 tonight. (spoiler discussion) Fin. The end... for ever.

Forums - General Discussion - GoT season 8 final episode 6 tonight. (spoiler discussion) Fin. The end... for ever.

I'm...

Hyped. 24 55.81%
 
Mildly interested. 11 25.58%
 
Not bothered. 5 11.63%
 
/indifferent/not watched/other in comments. 3 6.98%
 
Total:43
Hiku said:
Scoobes said:

Depends on how you define innocent, enemy or traitor. If we look back to Essos for instance, after the siege of Meereen she indiscriminately and randomly picks 160+ of the Masters to be crucified. We justify it because they were slavers and because it's presented as a liberation with the brutality of the slaver children fresh in our minds beforehand. But as we see in later episodes some of the Masters treated their slaves well and would not have been involved in those actions, but to her, it's black and white.

Given her narcissism which has been on display for many seasons now, who she's see's as an enemy is also fluid and especially as her most trusted advisors (who typically calm her more ruthless side) are now dead I really don't see this dark side of her as a particularly rapid turn of events. 

Yeah, but for slave owners I think they made her views on them pretty clear. Even someone who treats their slaves well are still robbing them of their freedom. It wasn't just the mistreatment of slaves she was against, but the whole system.

This was illustrated when she didn't mistreat the unsullied either, but still left the choice to them if they wanted to follow her or not.

Slave owners are a pretty far cry from babies.

I don't remember she paying anything to the soldiers after she bought them and supposedly freed them. So they are basically modern slaves working for the food.



duduspace11 "Well, since we are estimating costs, Pokemon Red/Blue did cost Nintendo about $50m to make back in 1996"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=8808363

Mr Puggsly: "Hehe, I said good profit. You said big profit. Frankly, not losing money is what I meant by good. Don't get hung up on semantics"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=9008994

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Hiku said:
Scoobes said:

They were people people living their lives. Again, it's a matter of perspective and we only ever see hers, and as an audience are far more sympathetic because slavery is so abhorrent in the 21st Century, but this is a time and land where slaves are the norm. She's imposing her will and rapidly casting judgement. And as I said a few posts up, when she passes judgement, she loses all empathy for that person. She never displays guilt or remorse, even when she tells Sam about his family.

Her freeing the slaves and unsullied also comes from two aspects of her personality. The first is genuine empathy having effectively been a slave herself in the first season. But the second is that it feeds her narcissism. She is their savior. She doesn't get that in Westeros. In fact, she has a propaganda war raged against her and even after the pivotal role she played in the battle with the Night King, she's still seen as the foreigner. With the loss of her allies and closest friends and advisors, she no longer has anyone to feed the narcissist in her and snaps.

She doesn't show empathy for her enemies. But they've always been people who have in her mind hurt/wronged others. She gave the Tarly's, who were not only enemies but arguably traitors as well, a chance to accept her rule. And when two of them still opposed her, she showed no remorse for her enemies.
But there's no such arguments to be made for the babies she slaughtered in King's Landing.

And while she does want to be seen as a savior, the absence of that, or even losing more friends, doesn't change the fact that she never targeted completely innocent people before. And on the note of being loved, the seven kingdoms would love her once Jon and everyone sung her praises of how she saved them from the Whitewalkers. They could have spread that message across the world after they removed Cercei. They could have painted her as the hero. But instead she chose to become the worst mass murderer in the history of the series.

Problem is that she didn't. The unsullied died by dozen without doing a dent on the whitewalker, she couldn't destroy the king of the night with the fire and then was cowering with the advisor fighting for her. Arya almost alone saved the earth.



duduspace11 "Well, since we are estimating costs, Pokemon Red/Blue did cost Nintendo about $50m to make back in 1996"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=8808363

Mr Puggsly: "Hehe, I said good profit. You said big profit. Frankly, not losing money is what I meant by good. Don't get hung up on semantics"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=9008994

Scoobes said:
Angelus said:
Dany's story was always going to end like this, and there's enough pieces of it here to see why. I understand the frustration, because ultimately that switch is flipped really abruptly, and it feels jarring. If you really think about it though, it's hard to argue it doesn't make sense, even if one might have preferred a smoother transition, where the viewer is really handheld down her path to madness.

Here's this person who's accomplished all these amazing feats. She went from being little more than a slave, and a whore, to becoming a queen. Going from land to land, city to city, conquering everything in her way. Throughout, she was actually consistently ruthless, and demonstrated kindness/mercy only when she knew there was something to be gained by it (not saying that this didn't happen often, but it was always very much calculated). Especially early on, without the benefit of fully grown dragons, these traits were tools she knew - and was often reminded by those counseling her - she required to build a loyal army. The more power she acquired throughout the show, the more she relied on shows of strength. She still had her ideals of course, and sought to be just in her way, but one definitely got the clear impression that her morals weren't ever going to get in the way of her ambition.

By the time she finally arrives in Westeros, she's become very much impatient. All along the journey she was told she had to do this, that, or the other to prepare for this moment, and then she finally gets here, and it's still not enough. So once, again, at the behest of those advising her, she devotes her attention/resources to something else. She helps the North defend the lands against this seemingly all consuming threat of the whitewalkers. In the process, she loses a dragon, as well as one of her most longstanding advisors. That's tough in and of itself. This time however, where she previously found admiration, and loyalty from those she aided, she finds mostly indifference, and actually even contempt. They don't look at her as a savior, but rather….the next problem in their lives. Ungrateful. To make matters worse, the man she'd found love with, is discovered to be her nephew, and the rightful heir to the Iron Throne. At this point, her whole quest, her whole life's mission is basically unravelling before her. Even if/when she wins, there's going to be a challenge to her rule. Whether John wants it or not, he's a symbol to the people of an alternative choice. A familiar choice. Not some foreigner who showed up riding on dragons, and huge armies in tow, but a man of the people. The only peaceful way forward, a marital union, is rejected by him. On top of all this - as if it weren't enough - her actual best (possibly, only real) friend, who's been with her from almost the very beginning, is beheaded in front of her.

So, to say the least, her path to "victory" in Westeros has not been kind. In fact, it's pretty much been a disaster. Plans are coming undone pretty much every episodes, she's down to only one dragon, and she's losing basically everyone she cares about in one way or another. Fast-forward to her hearing the bells of surrender. She's sitting there, on her dragon, taking it all in. Has she really won….? Cersei is surrendering, sure….but what did she win? Taking this city, this throne, has cost her literally everything but the dragon she's sitting on. In this moment, she's emotionally broken. Why should it be so easy for these people? They don't care what she's sacrificed to get here. The efforts she made to keep them safe from an army of zombies. That she's deposing a tyrant. The times she took everyone's advice to seek a peaceful surrender, only to be met with more heartbreak as a result. Why should she just be another in a long line of figureheads who's replacement these people await with indifference? This place is broken. It's not worth saving. It's people aren't worth saving. Cersei is as much a product of them, as they, and their situation are of her. So burn it. Burn it all down. "Break the wheel," if you will.

You can argue with the execution, but I think it works. I'm not saying the slow decent into madness that a lot of people wanted to see wouldn't work, or wouldn't be interesting. I'll even accept that it might have been a smarter move on the part of the writers, to lead people down that road bit by bit, and really spell it out. Make it as on the nose as possible, so people don't feel betrayed when a character they love, and have spent so much time with, is at some moment completely unrecognizable in their actions. Reality though, is that sometimes people just snap, and they do so even at moments that make very little sense to people from the outside. Dany certainly has experienced enough to justify such a snap, and all the character traits that would make her capable of killing countless people, innocents or not, were always there. Whether they were usually held in check by her better judgement, advisors, or an eye ahead to long-term benefits, is frankly irrelevant. She hit a breaking point, and having watched her journey throughout all these years, I personally found it pretty believable.

I do agree that it would have come across better if they'd reversed the order in terms of her destruction of the city and the actual keep, but I can live with. Flying over it anyway so....might as well torch it on the way, right? lol

You basically said what I've been trying to say but in much better and descriptive words. So thanks!

Problem with this argument is that basically all the starks suffered much more than this and wouldn't do what she done.

Jon was killed by his comrades in the night watch.

Sansa have already been summarized here.

Bran was tossed from a tower for seeing incest and inherited the memories of the world and all treason there.

Arya would be the one that was least betrayed and who would guess is the most vengeful one.



duduspace11 "Well, since we are estimating costs, Pokemon Red/Blue did cost Nintendo about $50m to make back in 1996"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=8808363

Mr Puggsly: "Hehe, I said good profit. You said big profit. Frankly, not losing money is what I meant by good. Don't get hung up on semantics"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=9008994

DonFerrari said:
Scoobes said:

You basically said what I've been trying to say but in much better and descriptive words. So thanks!

Problem with this argument is that basically all the starks suffered much more than this and wouldn't do what she done.

Jon was killed by his comrades in the night watch.

Sansa have already been summarized here.

Bran was tossed from a tower for seeing incest and inherited the memories of the world and all treason there.

Arya would be the one that was least betrayed and who would guess is the most vengeful one.

None of them have dragons. I'm pretty sure Sansa and Arya, at some point in her stories would liked burn KL to the ground too. Nobody has the power Dany has in this story, so no one can be compared to her.

You can guess Jon and Bran wouldn't do it, in any cirucumstances, but the rest of the Starks.....mmm.

Besides all of this, Dany has the arrogant gen of the Targaryen. She sees herself as a superior being to others. She was stolen of her birthright. She has grown living with resentment. Daenerys has been shown multiples times not differentiating fairly who are true enemies or not. Like when she considered Ned Stark as guilty as Robert Baratheon for assassinating her family, something that Jorah had to convince her was not fair because Ned would have never killed a baby, and that he wasn't even in KL at the moment. 

Daenerys has barely shown mercy against her enemies throughout the story. It was just that until now, Daenerys' enemies and the audience enemies were the same. It's more a problem of hipocresy of the audience than anything else. We like to critizise and judge others severely because we like to be right until another one does the same against us. That's why is so dangerous a leader/revolutionist character like Daenerys.

In the end she decided Cersei, KL population and anyone not supporting her are going to be her enemies. If you are not with me, you are against me. Not middle terms. Absolutism mentality.

Last edited by colafitte - on 16 May 2019

colafitte said:
DonFerrari said:

Problem with this argument is that basically all the starks suffered much more than this and wouldn't do what she done.

Jon was killed by his comrades in the night watch.

Sansa have already been summarized here.

Bran was tossed from a tower for seeing incest and inherited the memories of the world and all treason there.

Arya would be the one that was least betrayed and who would guess is the most vengeful one.

None of them have dragons. I'm pretty sure Sansa and Arya, at some point in her stories would liked burn KL to the ground too. Nobody has the power Dany has in this story, so no one can be compared to her.

You can guess Jon and Bran wouldn't do it, in any cirucumstances, but the rest of the Starks.....mmm.

Besides all of this, Dany has the arrogant gen of the Targaryen. She sees herself as a superior being to others. She was stolen of her birthright. She has grown living with resentment. Daenerys has been shown multiples times not differentiating fairly who are true enemies or not. Like when she considered Ned Stark as guilty as Robert Baratheon for assassinating her family, something that Jorah had to convince her was not fair because Ned would have never killed a baby, and that he wasn't even in KL at the moment. 

Daenerys has barely shown mercy against her enemies throughout the story. It was just that until now, Daenerys' enemies and the audience enemies were the same. It's more a problem of hipocresy of the audience than anything else. We like to critizise and judge others severely because we like to be right until another one does the same against us. That's why is so dangerous a leader/revolutionist character like Daenerys.

In the end she decided Cersei, KL population and anyone not supporting her are going to be her enemies. If you are not with me, you are against me. Not middle terms. Absolutism mentality.

Except that KL population is her population, her citizens. She considers herself as the Queen, and Cersei is just an usurper. So, those people are her subjects. She is fighting to free her subject from an usurper and get her throne back. It makes absolutely no sense to kill her subjects, even more before attacking the usurper. Or worse, ignoring the usurper to just focus on killing her population.

And the population is with no one, they will just follow whoever is king/queen. The only way for the population to not accept the new queen is if she starts to kill people blindly. Like she did. It's just a stupid writing made to make her hated and accelerate her obvious murder in the last episode. Lazy writing for hollywoodian "plot twist".

Before that, she also had Dorne, Highgarden and the Iron Island following her (and the North and Vale through Sansa and Jon). It's dead now, no one will follow her anymore (or only publicly). People don't understand that you don't reign with fear like that. This action did not create fear, it created hatred. Huge difference between respecting and fearing your queen (when she kills people who oppose her), and hating her (when she kills everyone blindly). That's the difference that will lead to her death, for no reason.



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Faelco said:
colafitte said:

None of them have dragons. I'm pretty sure Sansa and Arya, at some point in her stories would liked burn KL to the ground too. Nobody has the power Dany has in this story, so no one can be compared to her.

You can guess Jon and Bran wouldn't do it, in any cirucumstances, but the rest of the Starks.....mmm.

Besides all of this, Dany has the arrogant gen of the Targaryen. She sees herself as a superior being to others. She was stolen of her birthright. She has grown living with resentment. Daenerys has been shown multiples times not differentiating fairly who are true enemies or not. Like when she considered Ned Stark as guilty as Robert Baratheon for assassinating her family, something that Jorah had to convince her was not fair because Ned would have never killed a baby, and that he wasn't even in KL at the moment. 

Daenerys has barely shown mercy against her enemies throughout the story. It was just that until now, Daenerys' enemies and the audience enemies were the same. It's more a problem of hipocresy of the audience than anything else. We like to critizise and judge others severely because we like to be right until another one does the same against us. That's why is so dangerous a leader/revolutionist character like Daenerys.

In the end she decided Cersei, KL population and anyone not supporting her are going to be her enemies. If you are not with me, you are against me. Not middle terms. Absolutism mentality.

Except that KL population is her population, her citizens. She considers herself as the Queen, and Cersei is just an usurper. So, those people are her subjects. She is fighting to free her subject from an usurper and get her throne back. It makes absolutely no sense to kill her subjects, even more before attacking the usurper. Or worse, ignoring the usurper to just focus on killing her population.

And the population is with no one, they will just follow whoever is king/queen. The only way for the population to not accept the new queen is if she starts to kill people blindly. Like she did. It's just a stupid writing made to make her hated and accelerate her obvious murder in the last episode. Lazy writing for hollywoodian "plot twist".

Before that, she also had Dorne, Highgarden and the Iron Island following her (and the North and Vale through Sansa and Jon). It's dead now, no one will follow her anymore (or only publicly). People don't understand that you don't reign with fear like that. This action did not create fear, it created hatred. Huge difference between respecting and fearing your queen (when she kills people who oppose her), and hating her (when she kills everyone blindly). That's the difference that will lead to her death, for no reason.

And she will say that she did it for the people of KL. For the "future generations" like she said before the attack.

And the population being with no one maybe it doesn't matter to you, but it definitively matters to Daenerys. That's what Tyrion was trying to tell her all this time, but in Daenerys mind, If the people don't fight against Cersei with her, then are part of the problem too. She literally says in the last ep when Tyrion tells her that the people don't care "it is my fault??" You have to take into consideration that she is sending a message, not only to KL's people, but all Westeros. Deny my right to be queen and you will burn too. This is necessary because I AM NECESSARY. Everyone fighting against me, or not alongside me, is fighting against the future of the 7 seven kingdoms. That's her mindset.

Look, i don't support how the tv show has done Daenerys recent arc at all. I do feel too, that everything was too rushed. But the hints are there, and it's probably how the books are going to end too.



colafitte said:
Faelco said:

Except that KL population is her population, her citizens. She considers herself as the Queen, and Cersei is just an usurper. So, those people are her subjects. She is fighting to free her subject from an usurper and get her throne back. It makes absolutely no sense to kill her subjects, even more before attacking the usurper. Or worse, ignoring the usurper to just focus on killing her population.

And the population is with no one, they will just follow whoever is king/queen. The only way for the population to not accept the new queen is if she starts to kill people blindly. Like she did. It's just a stupid writing made to make her hated and accelerate her obvious murder in the last episode. Lazy writing for hollywoodian "plot twist".

Before that, she also had Dorne, Highgarden and the Iron Island following her (and the North and Vale through Sansa and Jon). It's dead now, no one will follow her anymore (or only publicly). People don't understand that you don't reign with fear like that. This action did not create fear, it created hatred. Huge difference between respecting and fearing your queen (when she kills people who oppose her), and hating her (when she kills everyone blindly). That's the difference that will lead to her death, for no reason.

And she will say that she did it for the people of KL. For the "future generations" like she said before the attack.

And the population being with no one maybe it doesn't matter to you, but it definitively matters to Daenerys. That's what Tyrion was trying to tell her all this time, but in Daenerys mind, If the people don't fight against Cersei with her, then are part of the problem too. She literally says in the last ep when Tyrion tells her that the people don't care "it is my fault??" You have to take into consideration that she is sending a message, not only to KL's people, but all Westeros. Deny my right to be queen and you will burn too. This is necessary because I AM NECESSARY. Everyone fighting against me, or not alongside me, is fighting against the future of the 7 seven kingdoms. That's her mindset.

Look, i don't support how the tv show has done Daenerys recent arc at all. I do feel too, that everything was too rushed. But the hints are there, and it's probably how the books are going to end too.

Yes, the books might end the same way, and that's not the issue here.

If you add an entire season showing a progression to the Mad Queen, it can be good. You could even do the same type of scenario, but with one factor making her snap. An example would be to kill her second dragon during the attack instead of during the previous episode. Make them kill Rhaegal just before the bells, and I would understand if she snaps and doesn't let them surrender. But the way they did it, it makes no sense. Even with some foreshadowing, you need one push to make her become mad. There was no push during the battle, she became mad alone on her dragon because of bells. Ridiculous.



colafitte said:
DonFerrari said:

Problem with this argument is that basically all the starks suffered much more than this and wouldn't do what she done.

Jon was killed by his comrades in the night watch.

Sansa have already been summarized here.

Bran was tossed from a tower for seeing incest and inherited the memories of the world and all treason there.

Arya would be the one that was least betrayed and who would guess is the most vengeful one.

None of them have dragons. I'm pretty sure Sansa and Arya, at some point in her stories would liked burn KL to the ground too. Nobody has the power Dany has in this story, so no one can be compared to her.

You can guess Jon and Bran wouldn't do it, in any cirucumstances, but the rest of the Starks.....mmm.

Besides all of this, Dany has the arrogant gen of the Targaryen. She sees herself as a superior being to others. She was stolen of her birthright. She has grown living with resentment. Daenerys has been shown multiples times not differentiating fairly who are true enemies or not. Like when she considered Ned Stark as guilty as Robert Baratheon for assassinating her family, something that Jorah had to convince her was not fair because Ned would have never killed a baby, and that he wasn't even in KL at the moment. 

Daenerys has barely shown mercy against her enemies throughout the story. It was just that until now, Daenerys' enemies and the audience enemies were the same. It's more a problem of hipocresy of the audience than anything else. We like to critizise and judge others severely because we like to be right until another one does the same against us. That's why is so dangerous a leader/revolutionist character like Daenerys.

In the end she decided Cersei, KL population and anyone not supporting her are going to be her enemies. If you are not with me, you are against me. Not middle terms. Absolutism mentality.

Yes maybe Sansa or Arya would, never seem signs showing that they would though.

And as said by several people here there is a difference between she being in her dragon and let's say they kill her best friend and at that moment she snaps and makes something she regrets later and having suffered before the battle, winning and then snapping.

Also you replied yourself, she is the crazy one, with arrogant, self-serving, self-important, unforgivable attitude. Arya and Sansa were able to "forgive" or at least tolerate Jaime and Imp after what happened to their family. Jaime was very much part of the murdering of their father, mother and brother. The girls wanted to "burn" KL metaphorically, not kill all the citizens.

I do agree with you that since the beginning it was show that she wasn't mentally sound and fair as the starks. She have been ruthless, egoistical, power hungry, cruel and much more since the beginning. She just happen to be anti-slavery and feminist so she was applauded for what she did so far before this battle.



duduspace11 "Well, since we are estimating costs, Pokemon Red/Blue did cost Nintendo about $50m to make back in 1996"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=8808363

Mr Puggsly: "Hehe, I said good profit. You said big profit. Frankly, not losing money is what I meant by good. Don't get hung up on semantics"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=9008994

Faelco said:

Yes, the books might end the same way, and that's not the issue here.

If you add an entire season showing a progression to the Mad Queen, it can be good. You could even do the same type of scenario, but with one factor making her snap. An example would be to kill her second dragon during the attack instead of during the previous episode. Make them kill Rhaegal just before the bells, and I would understand if she snaps and doesn't let them surrender. But the way they did it, it makes no sense. Even with some foreshadowing, you need one push to make her become mad. There was no push during the battle, she became mad alone on her dragon because of bells. Ridiculous.

I agree the problem is the pace. Too sudden. But i must say that the snap did not happened just with the bells. Were happening multiple times in the last episodes. Jorah's death, Rhaegal's death, Missandei's death, Jon, Varys, Tyrion treasons. She was deranged and lonely just before the attack. When the moment happens, she just left her more primal emotions get the best of her. 

By the time the battle ended, what she was thinking was everything that she endured to get to this point. Everything she lost because of doing what others said her to do. She came to the conclusion that she is the queen, that she is the one who see what really needs to be done. She knew (from her point of view) that she needed fear to reign here, because trying the people to love her only served to bring death to her most loved ones. And hatred is not the same as fear. If you feel hate, you are not feeling true fear. When you're absolutely scared you don't allow yourself to feel hate. You become completely impotent. That's what she is trying to do to Westeros. That's the Targaryen mentality. 

This video is a good montage of Daenerys dark side since the beginning of the series until the end.



colafitte said:
Faelco said:

Except that KL population is her population, her citizens. She considers herself as the Queen, and Cersei is just an usurper. So, those people are her subjects. She is fighting to free her subject from an usurper and get her throne back. It makes absolutely no sense to kill her subjects, even more before attacking the usurper. Or worse, ignoring the usurper to just focus on killing her population.

And the population is with no one, they will just follow whoever is king/queen. The only way for the population to not accept the new queen is if she starts to kill people blindly. Like she did. It's just a stupid writing made to make her hated and accelerate her obvious murder in the last episode. Lazy writing for hollywoodian "plot twist".

Before that, she also had Dorne, Highgarden and the Iron Island following her (and the North and Vale through Sansa and Jon). It's dead now, no one will follow her anymore (or only publicly). People don't understand that you don't reign with fear like that. This action did not create fear, it created hatred. Huge difference between respecting and fearing your queen (when she kills people who oppose her), and hating her (when she kills everyone blindly). That's the difference that will lead to her death, for no reason.

And she will say that she did it for the people of KL. For the "future generations" like she said before the attack.

And the population being with no one maybe it doesn't matter to you, but it definitively matters to Daenerys. That's what Tyrion was trying to tell her all this time, but in Daenerys mind, If the people don't fight against Cersei with her, then are part of the problem too. She literally says in the last ep when Tyrion tells her that the people don't care "it is my fault??" You have to take into consideration that she is sending a message, not only to KL's people, but all Westeros. Deny my right to be queen and you will burn too. This is necessary because I AM NECESSARY. Everyone fighting against me, or not alongside me, is fighting against the future of the 7 seven kingdoms. That's her mindset.

Look, i don't support how the tv show has done Daenerys recent arc at all. I do feel too, that everything was too rushed. But the hints are there, and it's probably how the books are going to end too.

Isn't this a reflection on current society.  Have we not killed innocents trying to get the so called villain.  Someone terrorist is another person's freedom fighter.  How many times has we seen people be ok with collateral damage.  I would say that Martin has done an excellent job of duping his audience.  He has shone many times Dany's nature but people were ok with it because as one person put it, it was against bad people.  People wanted Cersei to pay they wanted her to burn I do not know why they believe Martin would give it to them the way they envisioned.  It was evident that he was always moving the story this way where you have a teenage kid with anger issues and repeatable nukes under their control.  It was always going to end bad.