Goodnightmoon said:
Lovely how you look at only one side of the coin when it comes to excessively idealized man characters, you kind of prove my point. |
Wow, nice argument. I think you just proved mine, lol.
Goodnightmoon said:
Lovely how you look at only one side of the coin when it comes to excessively idealized man characters, you kind of prove my point. |
Wow, nice argument. I think you just proved mine, lol.
thismeintiel said: Of course she is. And people who desperately want to prove she isn't falls into two categories, either SJWs who have no argument, so just call the other side sexists, or those who exaggerate scenes or just plain make up stuff that weren't in the movies to show she isn't. |
So, that's what this is about I see. It's an attempt to act like the film industry portrays females in an unfairly positive light.
Goodnightmoon said:
Tell that to characters like Harry Potter, James Bond or Neo. |
Harry Potter is a lucky kid who constantly falls back on Hermione and Ron for help (the former of the two appearing closer to a Mary Sue in the movies than Harry does). Without Hermione's intellect and Ron's heart, Harry would have failed repeatedly throughout the series. The idea is the trio makes up for each other's weaknesses rather than Harry being the smartest, bravest, most capable wizard in the series. Not only that, but Harry starts off being absolutely helpless in most cases. He doesn't become competent until he's forced to do so by life and death situations.
Not gonna touch James Bond, since I don't know jack shit about him.
Neo prior to the end of the first movie was full of flaws and imperfections. It wasn't until the end of the first movie that he became a god of the Matrix, which was not only the entire point of the first movie, but also why the series had a massive dip in quality following it. Even then, Neo gradually loses spotlight to the more vulnerable characters because *gasp* it's really boring watching some guy walk around succeeding all of the time.
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KLAMarine said:
Did the Falcon crash? No. Okay, I can buy that. What I cannot buy is that the Falcon would be able to outmaneuver multiple fighters considering its larger relative mass. That's like a cargo van outmaneuvering a race car or a B28 bomber outmaneuvering a fighter. The Falcon was meant for smuggling, not maneuvering but in the hands of Rey, it can do anything.
Like I said, if you don't like the adjective then Rey is overly competent to the point that credibility in her character and tension in the film are both destroyed.
Are you suggesting that in the act of liking/trusting Rey, the other characters break the fourth wall?
I'm expecting the cast to be neutral to her, not to dislike her much like how to Han, Luke was just talking cargo and to Leia, Luke was a means to escape. Even after all was said and done near the end of ANH, Han wanted to leave and Leia was getting back to work fighting the Empire. All Luke's connections got him was joining with other X-Wing fighters in a daring attack on the Death Star. Compare that to Finn who devoted himself to Rey or Rey getting a critical lone mission to find Luke. Rather than the rebels sending a delegation to meet Luke in this vital mission, they send a newcomer on her own. Compare that to Kylo who is trying to recruit her to his side. Vader was aiming to kill Luke in ANH.
No, I'm suggesting a wounded Kylo Ren should be able to at least render helpless a novice Rey who just recently discovered the force and just recently wielded a saber. Instead, she wins and the tension in the scene is destroyed. Kylo Ren's threat level is destroyed. I'm not invested anymore because Rey just keeps showing she always comes out on top no matter the circumstance. Is it so much to ask for that the protagonist get his/her ass kicked a bit and lose here and there much like with Luke? Give the opposition a bit of a threat level rather than removing it.
Rey is overly competent to the point that credibility in her character and tension in the film are both destroyed. How's that?
This bears repeating btw: I think there's an angle you're not seeing here. I'm sure you could provide reasons as to why Rey always seems to have the upper hand in whatever situation she finds herself but this doesn't change the fact that she always has an upper hand. No feat seems impossible to her. This is a problem for storytelling: things like building tension and helping the viewer to suspend their disbelief are done by not only making a character believable but also making the antagonist threatening. Rey being good at so many things at some point becomes unbelievable. I think everyone here would agree that they're good at some things and bad at other things. I'm good at math and science but I'm terrible at reading Shakespeare. That stuff is not modern-day English. Even people really good at one thing are not so good at another: Michael Jordan was a great basketball player but a mediocre baseball player. Being able to fix things, speak droid, fight well, and even overcome Kylo's mind probe and turn it against him runs counter to building tension because at some point, I just expect Rey to always win. Rey being good at everything isn't gonna make me wonder if she'll be able to overcome the next obstacle, I'll just get used to expecting it. That's boring: tension dies and suspension of disbelief is shattered. It's what happens when you turn on god mode in a game: fun at first but it gets boring quickly. Without risk, where's the fun? Where's the challenge? Would a game that was won by pressing a 'press to win' button be fun? No, it wouldn't be fun. To add to all this, this latest Star Wars trilogy does not exist in a vacuum and neither does Rey's character: Luke Skywalker exists in this universe and he had to get his ass kicked before becoming the capable Luke Skywalker in episode 6. He got his ass handed to him by cantina thugs, tusken raiders, Darth Vader, and even the emperor rendered him helpless with lightning. Thankfully for Luke, he had people to help him: Obi-Wan rescued him from cantina thugs and tusken raiders, R2 and 3PO saved him from getting squashed, Han Solo saved him from getting shot down in ANH and freezing to death in ESB, Leia saved him when he was close to plunging to his death in ESB, Darth Vader saved him from the emperor in RotJ. Rey saved herself when in the same film, Poe needed help from Finn and Finn needed help from Rey. Doesn't seem terribly balanced. |
Hey, stop with all your good arguments. Now, I'm just going to call you sexist. I WIN THE ARGUMENT!!
thismeintiel said:
Hey, stop with all your good arguments. Now, I'm just going to call you sexist. I WIN THE ARGUMENT!! |
I wish someone would call me sexist. I'd challenge them to prove it and watch as they come up short.
Rey is the supergirl of Star Wars, while Luke was batman of Star Wars. Now we all know supergirl by default beats Batman without having kryptonite. Which isn't necessarily bad if it wasn't for the fact Luke had to fight the Darkseid of DC. While Rey merely had to defeat let's say Poison Ivy. Rey isn't just overtly competent the whole new order and what's left of the rebellion is pretty much not competent at all. Except for BB8 (best fighter in the whole new trilogy) and our favourite pilot.
We have a traitor stormtrooper which main quality is that they know which end is the good end of a rifle, but they can't aim, fly or fight for shit. We have a rebellion which never figured out that the new order ships don't have forcefield and shooting a drone at light speed trough their destroyers is enough to defeat them. But I could live with all of the above, the things I couldn't live with are:
Physics a spaceship does not have a huge gravitational pull and you don't fire plasma balls like ducking mortars. If you shoot an object in space to another object shoot it in a goddamn straight line.
Space doesn't know sound so if a fighter flies by we don't need fake noise.
Debris doesn't fucking burn in space or keeps burning (bomber scene)
If you travel to a vacuum you don't need fuel to maintain speed just to keep the lights on.
And finally how was Leia not death, she was blown up, floated in a heavily radiated -200 degree vacuum and still managed to live trough all that, without any explanation at all.
Please excuse my (probally) poor grammar
Goodnightmoon said:
One word: Quidditch |
Rey is still worse. She's better than ep5 Luke Skywalker, because some amoeba needed to balance a scale. Potter can't kill Voldemort, till book 7. Hell, half the films he isn't the one that saves the day. He always falls back on someone. Potter couldn't of stopped Voldemort, in movie 1. If Ron didn't almost kill himself in Wizard Chess. The only character that is worse, is Young Anakin and his BS fighter fight in the control station.
Last edited by archer9234 - on 14 January 2018Neo isn't a weakling at the beginning of the Matrix. He fails the first jump but that's it. He only fails because he doesn't trust in his inate powers.
The very first time he spars with Morpheus it's clear to the audience that he's already more powerful than Morpheus who's presumably the most powerful of the "good guys".
The only thing he has to do is believe in himself and he can basically beat anyone, it's pre-destined in him.
Harry Potter beats Dracoy at quiddich right away and becomes like the best little wizard in Hogwarts within a week, lol.
Gimme a break with this shit.
This is a common archetype, the messiah/Chosen One/Golden Child archetype, it's just not commonly applied to women.
The only lesson for Harry Potter/Neo is not that they needed to work hard, it's that they were already better than everyone else, they just needed to believe it. That's the character arc, like it or not.
Soundwave said: Neo isn't a weakling at the beginning of the Matrix. He fails the first jump but that's it. He only fails because he doesn't trust in his inate powers. The only lesson for Harry Potter/Neo is not that they needed to work hard, it's that they were already better than everyone else, they just needed to believe it. That's the character arc, like it or not. |
Yep. There are examples everywhere of the Special/Chosen Protagonist. This is not a Gary Stu/Mary Sue.
There is a strong argument that Rey is not a Mary Sue under the assumption that she is a "vergence" in the Force, which means the Force chose her as a conduit for whatever her ultimate purpose is.
The only problem with Rey comes after the revelation in TLJ that Rey is nobody, or at least comes from nowhere, which contradicts the Chosen Protagonist notion.
The audience is left with no explanation for who she is or why she's important, other than because that's how she was written as the protagonist. This is not to say that audiences won't be given an explanation of sorts in the final chapter, but like many other things in TLJ, the obvious expectations were definitely bucked.
What this implies, is that the Force can choose a nobody as a conduit. Everything doesn't have to be explained through lineage, and genetics, which frankly is more in line with notions of royalty and superior genetic blood lines, which is definitely not the message any child should be gleaning from Star Wars. I want to say that the point of Rey is that anybody has the potential, which is not to say that everybody is special (this kind of thinking is generally not helpful), but that the lottery doesn't just apply to genetics. Sometimes good fortune is simply the will of the cosmos.
greenmedic88 said:
Yep. There are examples everywhere of the Special/Chosen Protagonist. This is not a Gary Stu/Mary Sue. There is a strong argument that Rey is not a Mary Sue under the assumption that she is a "vergence" in the Force, which means the Force chose her as a conduit for whatever her ultimate purpose is. The only problem with Rey comes after the revelation in TLJ that Rey is nobody, or at least comes from nowhere, which contradicts the Chosen Protagonist notion. The audience is left with no explanation for who she is or why she's important, other than because that's how she was written as the protagonist. This is not to say that audiences won't be given an explanation of sorts in the final chapter, but like many other things in TLJ, the obvious expectations were definitely bucked. What this implies, is that the Force can choose a nobody as a conduit. Everything doesn't have to be explained through lineage, and genetics, which frankly is more in line with notions of royalty and superior genetic blood lines, which is definitely not the message any child should be gleaning from Star Wars. I want to say that the point of Rey is that anybody has the potential, which is not to say that everybody is special (this kind of thinking is generally not helpful), but that the lottery doesn't just apply to genetics. Sometimes good fortune is simply the will of the cosmos. |
Actually "Chosen Ones" often do come from "nobody" parents.
Neo doesn't have remarkable parents or anything special in his blood line.
Anakin in the prequels is the son of an unremarkable slave woman.
Sometimes they do have noble ancestry though, but they can also be "nobody" the point of that is that the universe "chooses" them. Once "chosen" by the universe they are basically destined for great things. They often come from humble upbringings too, that is almost always universal. The story arc is pretty much always this:
1.) "You're The Chosen One! How'd You Do That? I Don't Believe It!"
2.) Chosen One doubts themselves despite being told by mentor characters not to doubt themeselves. Or they are afraid of their own inner power.
3.) Chosen resolves this doubt and goes on to win, whether through outright victory or self sacrifice that saves everyone else.
That's basically it, lol.