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Forums - Nintendo Discussion - Doom and Wolfenstein II The New Colossus coming to Switch

curl-6 said:
bonzobanana said:

Lets wait to see how portable mode turns out. I certainly do feel there is a cpu deficit in the Switch design but only by the ratio I have already stated based on benchmarks and evidence. We don't know how much dynamic resolution is being used or seen final retail code. It doesn't matter about age only peformance. The wii u was based on later technology but often performed below ps3/360 levels because it was low performance costed hardware. Again we had all this before with Nintendo fans claiming wii and wii u were more powerful than they were but the facts got through in the end and those fans were shown to be incorrect. Lets not forget not only do they have to make the game run at a much lower performance level in portable mode but give reasonable battery life too. There may be other power saving issues we haven't seen yet that the retail code will get. Again this is all premature we need to see final retail code. There are also other factors like compression on cartridges. Rayman Legends has a lower frame rate and inferior graphcs on Switch than wii u. Not because of any shortfall in Switch performance but because of minimising file size with heavy compression. That could also be a factor with larger games like this for retail code. It's naive in the extreme to base performance on what publishers and developers want you to see before the game is launched. 

Also I've been writing in the past about the Switch being capable of running VR versions of many 360 and PS3 games if a VR headset becomes available for Switch like the Nintendo patents. I'm fully aware of the superiority of Switch over 360 and PS3 in many areas. Admittedly I believe such a headset will be reliant on a power connection so it can run at docked performance level though.

I get that you still feel burned by the Wii U, and that you want to protect yourself from a repeat disappointment, but I think at this point it is safe to put aside any fears of Switch being weaker or on par with PS3/360/Wii U.

The specs and the games clearly show it's a step above. We're talking about a GPU a decade newer plus 6-8 times as much RAM.

We also talking about a CPU a decade newer even its fact that PS3/360 CPU were quite strong.



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Miyamotoo said:
bonzobanana said:

Lets wait to see how portable mode turns out. I certainly do feel there is a cpu deficit in the Switch design but only by the ratio I have already stated based on benchmarks and evidence. We don't know how much dynamic resolution is being used or seen final retail code. It doesn't matter about age only peformance. The wii u was based on later technology but often performed below ps3/360 levels because it was low performance costed hardware. Again we had all this before with Nintendo fans claiming wii and wii u were more powerful than they were but the facts got through in the end and those fans were shown to be incorrect. Lets not forget not only do they have to make the game run at a much lower performance level in portable mode but give reasonable battery life too. There may be other power saving issues we haven't seen yet that the retail code will get. Again this is all premature we need to see final retail code. There are also other factors like compression on cartridges. Rayman Legends has a lower frame rate and inferior graphcs on Switch than wii u. Not because of any shortfall in Switch performance but because of minimising file size with heavy compression. That could also be a factor with larger games like this for retail code. It's naive in the extreme to base performance on what publishers and developers want you to see before the game is launched. 

Also I've been writing in the past about the Switch being capable of running VR versions of many 360 and PS3 games if a VR headset becomes available for Switch like the Nintendo patents. I'm fully aware of the superiority of Switch over 360 and PS3 in many areas. Admittedly I believe such a headset will be reliant on a power connection so it can run at docked performance level though.

Fact that some multiplatform games were performed below PS3/360 is not prove that Wii U hardware is weaker, simple because devs learned to use most of PS3/360 hardware in 2012, while devs in 2012. were just started working on Wii U hardware and they stilld didnt learn to proparly use it not to mentione to use most of them. Just compare PS3/360 multi platform games from their first year 2005/2006 with multi platform games from 2012/2013, or Wii U multiplatform game from 2012. with  those PS3/Xbox360 games from 2005/2006. and you will get picture, we talking about night and day difference here (for isnstance CoD 3 from 2006. and CoD Black Ops 2 from 2012). And fact is that Wii U is more capable than PS3/Xbox360, Wii U has less capable CPU, but has more modern and capable GPU and 2-4x more RAM, so used in right way, Wii U hardware could achive more. Evrething we saw until now tells us how much more capibile Switch is compared to PS3/360/WiiU (again, Switch currently hardly has any game that runs at 720p (they are 900p-1080p in most cases), while only few were above 720p on PS3/Xbox360 and we actualy had plenty of sub HD games, that fact also tells you what is difference in power, and devs yet need to start taking out most of Switch hardware). Rayman Legends is heavily compressed on Switch and that's actually only game that has some miniuses compared to PS3/360/WiiU versions of games.

Nintendo definitely has some VR/AR plans with Switch, what exactly it remains to see, they definitely have lotsa a interesting ideas and patents.

Not some, almost all and the learning curve for wii u with a simple 3 core CPU arrangement without multi-threading and well documented radeon gpu is not going to be hard. It's a mute point anyway the wii u is done and so we can see exactly how it performed for its whole life cycle and that is it performed very badly.



curl-6 said:
Miyamotoo said:

while over 95% PS3/Xbox 360 games were 720p

Again, you're forgetting the huge number of games on PS3/360 that were sub-HD.

Obviously wii u too had sub HD games compared to PS3/360 like Sonic Racing which was close to ED on wii u. Also the issue of missing detail on some wii u games.



bonzobanana said:
curl-6 said:

Again, you're forgetting the huge number of games on PS3/360 that were sub-HD.

Obviously wii u too had sub HD games compared to PS3/360 like Sonic Racing which was close to ED on wii u. Also the issue of missing detail on some wii u games.

Wii U had proportionately fewer sub-HD games though, and games like NFS, Trine 2 and Bayo were graphically superior to PS3/360. But that's neither here nor there when it comes to the Switch; the Switch is not the Wii U, it is quite a bit stronger, and the games show it.



bonzobanana said:
Miyamotoo said:

Fact that some multiplatform games were performed below PS3/360 is not prove that Wii U hardware is weaker, simple because devs learned to use most of PS3/360 hardware in 2012, while devs in 2012. were just started working on Wii U hardware and they stilld didnt learn to proparly use it not to mentione to use most of them. Just compare PS3/360 multi platform games from their first year 2005/2006 with multi platform games from 2012/2013, or Wii U multiplatform game from 2012. with  those PS3/Xbox360 games from 2005/2006. and you will get picture, we talking about night and day difference here (for isnstance CoD 3 from 2006. and CoD Black Ops 2 from 2012). And fact is that Wii U is more capable than PS3/Xbox360, Wii U has less capable CPU, but has more modern and capable GPU and 2-4x more RAM, so used in right way, Wii U hardware could achive more. Evrething we saw until now tells us how much more capibile Switch is compared to PS3/360/WiiU (again, Switch currently hardly has any game that runs at 720p (they are 900p-1080p in most cases), while only few were above 720p on PS3/Xbox360 and we actualy had plenty of sub HD games, that fact also tells you what is difference in power, and devs yet need to start taking out most of Switch hardware). Rayman Legends is heavily compressed on Switch and that's actually only game that has some miniuses compared to PS3/360/WiiU versions of games.

Nintendo definitely has some VR/AR plans with Switch, what exactly it remains to see, they definitely have lotsa a interesting ideas and patents.

Not some, almost all and the learning curve for wii u with a simple 3 core CPU arrangement without multi-threading and well documented radeon gpu is not going to be hard. It's a mute point anyway the wii u is done and so we can see exactly how it performed for its whole life cycle and that is it performed very badly.

Not all, NFS, Rayman Legends, Trine 2, Bayonetta, Deus EX...actualy mostly Switch launch multiplatform game are worse compared to PS3/Xbox360,  but that again doesn't proves nothing, you know CPU is just one part of hardware not all, Wii U had 3 core, but also eDram that used in right way can be very helpful and of corse almost any 3rd party devs didn't use potential of eDram. Actual documentation about Wii U hardware was very bad and thats one of things that devs were complaining when they start working on Wii U games, and documentation does not change anything, fact is that you cant use most of hardware in 1st year or with first game. Again just compare PS3/Xbox360 multiplatform games from 2006. with Wii U games from 2012, we talking about night and day difrence, and Wii U actualy didnt had bigger 3rd party games after 2013. one of last games we had is Deus Ex that better on Wii U compared to PS3/Xbox360. PS3/Xbox 360 (espacily PS3) performed very badly, espacile in first few years until devs did learned to use much better hardware and after couple of games start using much better hardware they had, thats why you have night and day difrence if you compare 2006. and 2012. multiplatform games, Wii U didnt had that, Wii U left out multiplatform games in 1st year.



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curl-6 said:
bonzobanana said:

Lets wait to see how portable mode turns out. I certainly do feel there is a cpu deficit in the Switch design but only by the ratio I have already stated based on benchmarks and evidence. We don't know how much dynamic resolution is being used or seen final retail code. It doesn't matter about age only peformance. The wii u was based on later technology but often performed below ps3/360 levels because it was low performance costed hardware. Again we had all this before with Nintendo fans claiming wii and wii u were more powerful than they were but the facts got through in the end and those fans were shown to be incorrect. Lets not forget not only do they have to make the game run at a much lower performance level in portable mode but give reasonable battery life too. There may be other power saving issues we haven't seen yet that the retail code will get. Again this is all premature we need to see final retail code. There are also other factors like compression on cartridges. Rayman Legends has a lower frame rate and inferior graphcs on Switch than wii u. Not because of any shortfall in Switch performance but because of minimising file size with heavy compression. That could also be a factor with larger games like this for retail code. It's naive in the extreme to base performance on what publishers and developers want you to see before the game is launched. 

Also I've been writing in the past about the Switch being capable of running VR versions of many 360 and PS3 games if a VR headset becomes available for Switch like the Nintendo patents. I'm fully aware of the superiority of Switch over 360 and PS3 in many areas. Admittedly I believe such a headset will be reliant on a power connection so it can run at docked performance level though.

I get that you still feel burned by the Wii U, and that you want to protect yourself from a repeat disappointment, but I think at this point it is safe to put aside any fears of Switch being weaker or on par with PS3/360/Wii U.

The specs and the games clearly show it's a step above. We're talking about a GPU a decade newer plus 6-8 times as much RAM.

You don't get anything sadly. I bought and enjoyed my wii u but the farcical nature of the fanboy nature has always annoyed me. I have all 3 consoles; ps3, 360 and wii u and the defence of wii u when clearly it is performing to a lower level than the previous consoles overall has always annoyed me. Missing detail, slow loading, churning disc drive, inferior sound, lower frame rates for many games and a poor controller with important missing features like analogue triggers and yet many claim it to be superior. There are some fantastic games on wii u despite the hardware and there are games which utilise the later gpu feature set but the overall picture is of a weaker struggling console for many games.

Again you are making assumptions here. The Switch is a two tier system, one is its portable performance level and another is docked. Despite some shortfalls in cpu performance and memory bandwidth its clear the docked performance level is superior to 360/PS3 however for the portable performance level there is obviously a severe drop and the need to conserve battery power. Also cartridges and limited flash memory means there is pressure to downsize and highly compress data which are other factors and that applies to both portable and docked modes.

How many Switch games are going to get the amazing 7.1 high quality soundtracks that the ps3 had. That is pretty obviously zero because its limited to 5.1 channels. How many Switch games are going to get hours of high quality 1080p fmv? again zero, not that many would want it but for some games where you have an unfolding story and the fmv is very high quality it can be enjoyable. How many games on Switch will benefit from the subtle control of analogue triggers for driving and guns, again zero it doesn't have them.

I'm just making the point for many games the Switch will not be able to offer the same experiences as 360 and PS3 even though there will be many games on Switch that would not be as well done on PS3 or 360.

The Switch gaming experience is a slightly different one from 360 and PS3.

However again this is premature, we will get a full picture of how the Switch performs in portable mode  for these games when we see the reviews of retail code and digital foundry does its comparisons.  

Lets not forget unless Nintendo have changed the timings in their firmware the last concrete information we have from developer documentation is it runs 3 Arm A57's at 1020mhz for game code and has a performance of 153-157 gflops for portable mode GPU. If it strays from that battery life will decrease, any sort of boost mode or not enabling power saving will drop battery life considerably. Also from what has been discussed elsewhere on neogaf the Switch utilises the cpu for wifi processing and the wifi chip itself is pretty power hungry. Doom for example is a very multiplayer focused game. You don't want players droppring out of the game all the time because their battery needs charging. It will be interesting to see how ID and Bethesda approach portable performance of that game. Nintendo claims the minimum playing time of 2.5 hours for Switch and we have seem 3 hours for Zelda which is a single player experience. Doom features much heavier use of detailed textures, lighting, much faster pace gameplay, lots of rapid scene changing with requirements for hd feedback constantly. It's a killer for battery life on gaming laptops. I'm geniunely intrigued to see how it performs on Switch in portable mode. I'm expecting a nice playable 60fps version docked though unless they try to get close to PS4/Xbone visually and end up at 30fps which will be very disappointing. Docked is a different ball game, it takes all the restrictions off except for cartridge size limitations.

Anyway I wasn't wrong about wii or wii u and don't expect to be wrong about Switch portable mode but will be more than happy to be wrong. 




bonzobanana said:
curl-6 said:

I get that you still feel burned by the Wii U, and that you want to protect yourself from a repeat disappointment, but I think at this point it is safe to put aside any fears of Switch being weaker or on par with PS3/360/Wii U.

The specs and the games clearly show it's a step above. We're talking about a GPU a decade newer plus 6-8 times as much RAM.

You don't get anything sadly. I bought and enjoyed my wii u but the farcical nature of the fanboy nature has always annoyed me. I have all 3 consoles; ps3, 360 and wii u and the defence of wii u when clearly it is performing to a lower level than the previous consoles overall has always annoyed me. Missing detail, slow loading, churning disc drive, inferior sound, lower frame rates for many games and a poor controller with important missing features like analogue triggers and yet many claim it to be superior. There are some fantastic games on wii u despite the hardware and there are games which utilise the later gpu feature set but the overall picture is of a weaker struggling console for many games.

Again you are making assumptions here. The Switch is a two tier system, one is its portable performance level and another is docked. Despite some shortfalls in cpu performance and memory bandwidth its clear the docked performance level is superior to 360/PS3 however for the portable performance level there is obviously a severe drop and the need to conserve battery power. Also cartridges and limited flash memory means there is pressure to downsize and highly compress data which are other factors and that applies to both portable and docked modes.

How many Switch games are going to get the amazing 7.1 high quality soundtracks that the ps3 had. That is pretty obviously zero because its limited to 5.1 channels. How many Switch games are going to get hours of high quality 1080p fmv? again zero, not that many would want it but for some games where you have an unfolding story and the fmv is very high quality it can be enjoyable. How many games on Switch will benefit from the subtle control of analogue triggers for driving and guns, again zero it doesn't have them.

I'm just making the point for many games the Switch will not be able to offer the same experiences as 360 and PS3 even though there will be many games on Switch that would not be as well done on PS3 or 360.

The Switch gaming experience is a slightly different one from 360 and PS3.

However again this is premature, we will get a full picture of how the Switch performs in portable mode  for these games when we see the reviews of retail code and digital foundry does its comparisons.  

Lets not forget unless Nintendo have changed the timings in their firmware the last concrete information we have from developer documentation is it runs 3 Arm A57's at 1020mhz for game code and has a performance of 153-157 gflops for portable mode GPU. If it strays from that battery life will decrease, any sort of boost mode or not enabling power saving will drop battery life considerably. Also from what has been discussed elsewhere on neogaf the Switch utilises the cpu for wifi processing and the wifi chip itself is pretty power hungry. Doom for example is a very multiplayer focused game. You don't want players droppring out of the game all the time because their battery needs charging. It will be interesting to see how ID and Bethesda approach portable performance of that game. Nintendo claims the minimum playing time of 2.5 hours for Switch and we have seem 3 hours for Zelda which is a single player experience. Doom features much heavier use of detailed textures, lighting, much faster pace gameplay, lots of rapid scene changing with requirements for hd feedback constantly. It's a killer for battery life on gaming laptops. I'm geniunely intrigued to see how it performs on Switch in portable mode. I'm expecting a nice playable 60fps version docked though unless they try to get close to PS4/Xbone visually and end up at 30fps which will be very disappointing. Docked is a different ball game, it takes all the restrictions off except for cartridge size limitations.

Anyway I wasn't wrong about wii or wii u and don't expect to be wrong about Switch portable mode but will be more than happy to be wrong. 


Gigaflops is almost entirely useless as a metric for measuring performance between two machines built a decade apart with different architecures from different chipmakers.

It's like saying "this car goes 250kph and this plane goes 240kph so the car will get from town A to town B faster" but the car has to take long detours and gets stuck in traffic while the plane just flies there in a straight line in half the time.



bonzobanana said:

How many Switch games are going to get the amazing 7.1 high quality soundtracks that the ps3 had. That is pretty obviously zero because its limited to 5.1 channels. How many Switch games are going to get hours of high quality 1080p fmv? again zero, not that many would want it but for some games where you have an unfolding story and the fmv is very high quality it can be enjoyable. How many games on Switch will benefit from the subtle control of analogue triggers for driving and guns, again zero it doesn't have them.

Going to clear up some misconceptions you seem to have.

1) The majority of speaker systems in use is mono or stero setups.
2) The majority of surround sound speaker set-ups is 5.1.
3) The Switch's built in speakers also do not adhere to the 7.1 spec.
4) A high quality 5.1 set-up can exceed cheap 7.1 set-ups.
5) The Switch can handle 1080P HEVC/H265, so high quality 1080P video can take up  a stupidly small amount of space.
If you need more information on this... Look here.
https://www.extremetech.com/computing/162027-h-265-benchmarked-does-the-next-generation-video-codec-live-up-to-expectations
In short. You can cut video file sizes almost in half.
6) You cannot make false assertions that a console won't get this when it technically has the capability for it... And also has years of life left on the market.

bonzobanana said:

I'm just making the point for many games the Switch will not be able to offer the same experiences as 360 and PS3 even though there will be many games on Switch that would not be as well done on PS3 or 360.


If Nintendo wanted to provide the *same* experience as the Xbox 360 or Playstation 3. Then it would have released a console that was similar, not vastly different.
Not just in the various processors that are being used, but form factor and technology like motion controls as well.


bonzobanana said:


However again this is premature, we will get a full picture of how the Switch performs in portable mode  for these games when we see the reviews of retail code and digital foundry does its comparisons. 

The Switch sits between the Xbox 360/Playstation 3 and Xbox One. That is *never* going to change.

Ram was a massive limitation last console generation, guess what the Switch has? More Ram.

The Maxwell "Geforce 17" GPU is also orders of magnitude faster, more efficient and capable of far more effects than the old and antiquated Geforce 7 class GPU found in the Playstation 3.

The games have literally proven it. Zelda Breath of the Wid is an impressive feat on the Switch and Wii U. (Albeit, does have it's graphical shortcomings, but what game doesn't?)

bonzobanana said:

Lets not forget unless Nintendo have changed the timings in their firmware the last concrete information we have from developer documentation is it runs 3 Arm A57's at 1020mhz for game code and has a performance of 153-157 gflops for portable mode GPU. 

 This is where your entire argument falls apart.

You can have a GPU with less "Gflop" outperform a GPU with more "Gflop". - I can provide evidence on this if you require it.
Ergo. It is not an absolute determiner for determining the complete performance characteristics of a graphics processor.

Why is that? Because rendering games requires and uses more than just single precision floating point. It doesn't tell us it's integer capabilities, the FP capabilities of other precisision (I.E. Quarter/Half/Double Precision) Floating Point, bandwidth, it's filrate, it's geometry, it's culling, it's compression capabilities and more either.






--::{PC Gaming Master Race}::--

bonzobanana said:
curl-6 said:

I get that you still feel burned by the Wii U, and that you want to protect yourself from a repeat disappointment, but I think at this point it is safe to put aside any fears of Switch being weaker or on par with PS3/360/Wii U.

The specs and the games clearly show it's a step above. We're talking about a GPU a decade newer plus 6-8 times as much RAM.

You don't get anything sadly. I bought and enjoyed my wii u but the farcical nature of the fanboy nature has always annoyed me. I have all 3 consoles; ps3, 360 and wii u and the defence of wii u when clearly it is performing to a lower level than the previous consoles overall has always annoyed me. Missing detail, slow loading, churning disc drive, inferior sound, lower frame rates for many games and a poor controller with important missing features like analogue triggers and yet many claim it to be superior. There are some fantastic games on wii u despite the hardware and there are games which utilise the later gpu feature set but the overall picture is of a weaker struggling console for many games.

Again you are making assumptions here. The Switch is a two tier system, one is its portable performance level and another is docked. Despite some shortfalls in cpu performance and memory bandwidth its clear the docked performance level is superior to 360/PS3 however for the portable performance level there is obviously a severe drop and the need to conserve battery power. Also cartridges and limited flash memory means there is pressure to downsize and highly compress data which are other factors and that applies to both portable and docked modes.

How many Switch games are going to get the amazing 7.1 high quality soundtracks that the ps3 had. That is pretty obviously zero because its limited to 5.1 channels. How many Switch games are going to get hours of high quality 1080p fmv? again zero, not that many would want it but for some games where you have an unfolding story and the fmv is very high quality it can be enjoyable. How many games on Switch will benefit from the subtle control of analogue triggers for driving and guns, again zero it doesn't have them.

I'm just making the point for many games the Switch will not be able to offer the same experiences as 360 and PS3 even though there will be many games on Switch that would not be as well done on PS3 or 360. The Switch gaming experience is a slightly different one from 360 and PS3. However again this is premature, we will get a full picture of how the Switch performs in portable mode  for these games when we see the reviews of retail code and digital foundry does its comparisons.  

 

Anyway I wasn't wrong about wii or wii u and don't expect to be wrong about Switch portable mode but will be more than happy to be wrong. 


We talking here purely about power differences, and using Wii U launch multiplatform games that perform worse than PS3/Xbox360 multiplatform games from 2012. like prove that Wii U is weaker, is basically ignoring clear facts. Try comparing 2006. PS3/Xbox 360 multi platform games with 2012. Wii U multi platform games.

But fact is that with those specs, Switch even in portable mode is stronger than 360/PS3/WiiU, and you still deny that.

How many 1080p games PS3/360 had at at all, you could probably count them on one hand.

Literally any game we saw including Inides and other multiplatforms games show us that those game are runing at higher resolution or FPS compared to PS3/Xbox360 versions.

 

I dont know what you wrote about Wii and Wi iU, but fact that you saying Wii U is weaker than PS3/Xbox360, even Switch, proves you are wrong big time.



Miyamotoo said:

Lol, of course it doesnt mean, its no so simple, that 2x slower CPU automatically means 2x slower FPS. Again, why some game that are on PS4/XB1 30FPS on Switch are also 30FPS!? Offcourse that 30 FPS PS4/XB1 games will not run at 15 FPS on Switch, so like I wrote, it's up to devs and their priorities.

Again, I used Skyrim like example of one of AAA Switch games, yes it's remaster of last gen AAA game, but still is one of 3rd party AAA games that Switch has.

All of those games will have some downgrades, if that will be only graphic downgraded or FPS also we will see, and it's possible that some of them will have cutted some feature. Non of games until now dont have different gameplay mechanics, they are some games that missing mod, or some feature, or 30FPS instead 60FPS, but those things are not different gameplay mechanics.

So it looks like I ended up being right, Doom will target 30FPS on the Switch ...  

What's more is that DF cheated a little bit too with their simulated Switch. Instead of using Maxwell, they used Pascal (a GT 1030 clocked at 620MHz is definitely faster than the Switch's GPU) and paired it up with a CPU that's clocked twice as high ... (The bandwidth on this system is higher too.) 

A system that's more powerful than the Switch in docked mode and all they could manage was 540p with dips below 30FPS too ... 

Are you sure you want to contest that Wolfenstein 2 will be any different when it's running on the same engine as doom with a similar performance profile on home consoles too ?