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Forums - Politics Discussion - St. Louis will drop minimum wage from $10 to $7.70.

fatslob-:O said:
Pemalite said:

Except... A higher minimum wage doesn't mean there are more bank notes in circulation.

It does mean that the divide between the rich and poor is less.

Higher disposable income = Price raise on common commodities ... 

The transfer of wealth affects the supply and demand of goods in uncanny ways ... 

Doesn't mean that more currency is going to be printed, that was your original argument.

As for higher prices on commodities... That is not always the case either.
The Xbox One X for instance is actually going to be cheaper in Australia than the USA, once you account for currency conversion.

fatslob-:O said:

Sure it is, people just choose not to accept lower living standards ...

And nor should they. We live in "first world" countries.

fatslob-:O said:

We don't need dental care either for the vast majority of the population as that is an artifact of the past from the fact that we had very few inexpensive ways to maintain our dental health but with modern toothbrushes and toothpaste we don't need to worry so much about tooth decay anymore unless you consume a lot of acid.

And yet. Millions still rely on dental care.

And even when you have brushed your teeth, maintained good eating habits you whole life... You can still require dental care.

fatslob-:O said:
Australia is able to afford universal healthcare because it's population is less than 1/10th of America and that the citizens over there have relatively good health conditions and habits too.

That is a fallacy.
Population size has nothing to do with it, we are paying less per-person for healthcare than the USA, your system is extremely inefficient and results in inferior quality care, whilst being more expensive per capita.

fatslob-:O said:
America is eating itself into diabetes and cardiovascular diseases which puts a huge strain on the health system and that ends with us hiring foreign doctors looking to make big cash off of us.

Australia is also battling obesity, diabetes, cardiovascular diseases etc'.
But we tend to do a slightly better job at it.

Having a better health care system does help.

fatslob-:O said:
Make no mistake that an American citizens health is a big liability in itself since we're leaders in terms of chronic condition rates LOL ... (I don't think any subsidized healthcare system can help with that.)

Part of what makes an effective healthcare system is ironically... Education. Beating the problem before it becomes a problem.
Our Government/Health System has done a ton of educational work about the effects of obesity, smoking, alcohol etc'. And that does actually have a flow-on effect.


fatslob-:O said:
It's not a good idea to totally transition away from manufacturing since you can't reap living cost benefits without that sector or become a net exporter which is equivalent to a net profit for a nation. Even Germany keeps manufacturing around or at least high value manufacturing and their doing great cause they can't rely on having precious valuable resources like Australia since their nations reserves aren't as big ...

Well. Even non-resource rich countries have a small amount of manufacturing, because importing some goods just isn't as feasible.
Singapore for instance, even has to import water, has no natural resources, but is a big contributer to semiconductor manufacturing.

With that, you don't *need* manufacturing, resources, farming etc' to be successfull. It helps. But it's not a requirement.

I highly doubt the USA will ever be the world manufacturing leader ever again... As a country you can talk big all you want, you can try and play the market as much as you want... But the entire world will continue to buy from China.
Your economy has to transition like all economies need to do... You aren't going through an industrial revolution anymore like China is currently experiencing.

And eventually China will slow down and another country will repalce it. Nothing lasts forever.





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Can anyone make the ends meet with 7,7$/hour in St Louis? It makes about 1400$/month for rent, food, medical, clothes etc.

Sounds like running a restaurant in St Louis is not a very attractive business if the main success factor is low wages.



outlawauron said:
OTBWY said:
American wages baffle me. For 10$ and hour I wouldn't even get out of bed.

We have lower taxes so our goods as well as the costs of living are far lower. 

Yet poverty and income inequality in America is very high.



OTBWY said:
outlawauron said:

We have lower taxes so our goods as well as the costs of living are far lower. 

Yet poverty and income inequality in America is very high.

 

Not high enough. We just need a couple more tax cuts for the rich to push inequality to new heights.

sethnintendo said:
OTBWY said:

Yet poverty and income inequality in America is very high.

 

Not high enough. We just need a couple more tax cuts for the rich to push inequality to new heights.

 

The top 20% of income earners pay 85% of all income tax, the lower 50% pay nearly no income tax at all.



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numberwang said:
sethnintendo said:

 

Not high enough. We just need a couple more tax cuts for the rich to push inequality to new heights.

 

The top 20% of income earners pay 85% of all income tax, the lower 50% pay nearly no income tax at all.

Somehow the rich managed to survive just fine while getting taxed at a 90% rate under Eisenhower and before him.  I'm sure they are doing amazing at 39% now.

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2015/nov/15/bernie-s/income-tax-rates-were-90-percent-under-eisenhower-/



Seattle has an unemployment rate of 2%. Generally, more money in the hands of more (labor class) workers means more business. The rich spend a small portion of their income while the poor spend all of it and then some. As a nation, our moments of greatest prosperity followed minimum wage increases.

Obviously, adjustments have to be made and businesses are going to be allotting more of their income to worker wages than profits to start with - but increased revenue due to increased traffic means that smaller profit percentage can mean more profit overall as the market grows with the injection of wealth into the nations biggest spenders (working class).



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I think this is ridiculous. Minimum wages need to keep going up, not down. I am opposed to a $15 national minimum wage, because it's too drastic right now. I say $12/hour at the national level is a good idea. $7.25 is too low.



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Wman1996 said:
I think this is ridiculous. Minimum wages need to keep going up, not down. I am opposed to a $15 national minimum wage, because it's too drastic right now. I say $12/hour at the national level is a good idea. $7.25 is too low.

Probably best for states and cities to be left to set their own considering the cost of living is different and the inability of congress to pass an increase.  However, the federal min should have just been tied to inflation so we wouldn't have to debate about it anymore.  Republicans don't want to see it tied to inflation so every 5-20 years the debate comes up again because it has lagged behind inflation and comes to point where it is too low even for starter jobs.  I believe it would be nearing 10 a hour if they tied it to inflation the last time they actually voted to gradually increase it a decade or more ago.



Pemalite said:

Doesn't mean that more currency is going to be printed, that was your original argument.

As for higher prices on commodities... That is not always the case either.
The Xbox One X for instance is actually going to be cheaper in Australia than the USA, once you account for currency conversion.

Doesn't mean more currency ISN'T going to be printed either with a higher minimum wage ... 

Pemalite said:


And nor should they. We live in "first world" countries.

'First world' doesn't ncessarily mean 'developed' and the bar for that is lower than you think ... 

Pemalite said:

And yet. Millions still rely on dental care.


And even when you have brushed your teeth, maintained good eating habits you whole life... You can still require dental care.

America's need for dental care comes disporportionately from people older than 65 and immigrants from developing or industrialized nations. (People with less than stellar dental hygiene to begin with.) 

My country doesn't offer free dental care and I never needed an appointment with the orthodontist more than 5 times in my entire lifetime and the vast majority of those appointments were at childhood like it's supposed to be ideally. You shouldn't need more than 3 appointments to the orthodontist in your entire lifetime and if you still do manage to get tooth decay despite maintaining good dental hygiene habits at the age of 65 you're expected to have some sort of savings ... 

Pemalite said:

That is a fallacy. 

Population size has nothing to do with it, we are paying less per-person for healthcare than the USA, your system is extremely inefficient and results in inferior quality care, whilst being more expensive per capita.

Actually population size DOES matter! The US only has 2.3 physcians for every thousand people whereas Australia is slightly above the OECD average of 3.1 physcians ... 

This means that Australia has a 50% higher health service capacity and is able to more easily meet demands, the same can't be said in the US and the only one that breaks this trend is once again Japan ... 

Pemalite said:

Australia is also battling obesity, diabetes, cardiovascular diseases etc'.

But we tend to do a slightly better job at it.

Having a better health care system does help

Yeah ... 

Except diabetes is twice more likely to occur in americans than in australians so there's absolutely no comparison there ... (10% vs 5%)

The US paying twice as much as OECD countries is absolutely justified once we consider how high the chronic conditions rates are along with terminal care ...

Pemalite said:

Part of what makes an effective healthcare system is ironically... Education. Beating the problem before it becomes a problem.

Our Government/Health System has done a ton of educational work about the effects of obesity, smoking, alcohol etc'. And that does actually have a flow-on effect.

Educating the public is one thing but following through with the recommendations is another and that comes with big psychological changes. That means promising lower insurance premiums and promising rebates to those who are already healthy while shunning and increasing insurance premiums for the extremely unhealthy ...

Pemalite said:

Well. Even non-resource rich countries have a small amount of manufacturing, because importing some goods just isn't as feasible.

Singapore for instance, even has to import water, has no natural resources, but is a big contributer to semiconductor manufacturing.

With that, you don't *need* manufacturing, resources, farming etc' to be successfull. It helps. But it's not a requirement.

I highly doubt the USA will ever be the world manufacturing leader ever again... As a country you can talk big all you want, you can try and play the market as much as you want... But the entire world will continue to buy from China.
Your economy has to transition like all economies need to do... You aren't going through an industrial revolution anymore like China is currently experiencing.

And eventually China will slow down and another country will repalce it. Nothing lasts forever.

Even Singapore does not want to import water from Malaysia as it wants water supply independence by at least 2061. Every country wants to strive for economic independence and the only reason every nation keeps playing the friendly diplomatic relations game is to gain access to a short term solution ... 

The US doesn't want to be at the mercy of OPEC or the arab league so they've developed shale oil extraction technologies for the purpose of negotiating lower crude oil prices. China wants to transition to a consumption based economy while also maintaining leadership in being a net exporter so they're developing automation with the infrastructure investments to be able to keep a pricing advantage and they also want to develop their own semiconductor manufacturing sector so they don't have to deal America's national security tripes anymore ... 

Don't need manufacturing (industrialization), resources, and farming (agriculture) to be successful ?! LOL, those 3 things are what made America the greatest nation in the world. Transitioning to a service economy without any other fallback is hardly feasible as we see with India. Industrialization serves as a buffer from the migration of rural poverty to developed urban centers. Developing the manufacturing sector is the only realistic way you can get a nation into developed status as we see with many first world countries and services are dependent on manufacturing like it or not ... 

I personally think the age of industrial revolution is over as China will most likely be the last nation to experience mass scale industrial revolution and by then we'll experience a renaissance in automation in the next decade which will trivialize manufacturing and I also believe only nations with good infrastructure will be able to immediately take advantage of it ... 

Increasing minimum wage sounds nice and all but how about we invest that profit into a future where income DOESN'T matter for living standards ? 

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