Forums - Politics Discussion - St. Louis will drop minimum wage from $10 to $7.70.

Jon-Erich said:
TallSilhouette said:

Poor people should never run a business larger than they can afford to properly support. You can be a business of one. If you're starting out and can't afford full time employees with livable wages, do the work yourself and don't hire others until you can. If you can't get the proper loan yet but really need the extra hands, hire part timers and odd jobs to supplement, but not replace. If you really expect others to fully committ to getting your business off the ground without proper compensation, they deserve a percentage of the company. If you're unwilling to do any of those things, you don't deserve to be in business.

Unless your business involves running a youtube channel of being a web designer or something you could actually do on your own, that's impossible. You can't run a restaurant on your own. You simply cannot. In fact, with the restaurant business, you're probably going to lose money for the first two or three years before it takes off, if it takes off. In a small retail establishment, it may not be impossible to run it on your own, but still very difficult. 

What you're proposing just isn't economucally feesable, especially since some of the business owners can't even pay themselves a living wage. Also, under a business plan such as yours, all of your entrepreneurs would end up moving to the south since living expenses are far cheaper than the north or west coast. 

It is possible; it's called a food stand (or truck). There are tons of businesses you can start solo (or with equal share partners) that don't require expensive facilities or large staff until you're ready for them. No one owes you the type of business that does require them if you don't have the means or ingenuity for it. No one is entitled to a business they can't run properly. It's not okay to underpay your employees just because you want to be the boss but weren't born rich.



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Jon-Erich said:
nomad said:
Wow, people here are actually against minimum wages. You guys must either be business owners who suck at making money or employees who don't like getting paid for working.

Switzerland doesn't have a minimum wage and they seem to be doing great. In fact a few years ago, they had a national referendum to have a $25 minimum wage and the voters voted it down because most people there apparently make more than that. Having that artificial standard would have given some business owners the insentive to pay pay people less. That's what a minimum wage does. It creates an artificial standard that is not reflective of the state of the economy or the marketplace. Depending on the wages, having a minimum wage could either cause someone to get paid far less than what they should be getting paid or far more than what is economically viable, much like what we're seeing in Washington state. If the wages were more reflective of what the marketplace demanded, most people probably would be making a decent wage, just like in Switzerland.

Then again, Switzerland hasn't been involved in a war in over 200 years and is far more fiscally responsible than the United States, which is largely why that country so well off economically.

Sorry, but I don't get how minimum gives insentive to pay people less compared to no wage law. It creates a minimum standard but doesn't stop businesses from paying more or workers from asking for more. The same as as if there is no law, but it prevent businesses from going lower. All it is is a safety net, so people who are desperate, mentally challenged, foriegn workers, and uneducated do not get taken advantage of. I'm ignorant of Washington State. But if a business is not making money, it is their fault for being ineffecient, a more efficient business will take it's place.

We have minimum wages here at $9.25 and most of the jobs we have pay well above it. For example, I work at a supermarket, most employees get over 50% the minumum wage. Courtesy clerk aka bagger starts at around ~$11-12 for new employees and endup at ~$16-17 after X amount of hours. And I am pretty sure even the local McDonalds pay over it. No wage laws creates situations like what the US saw in the past, when workers mostly foreign workers/immigrant were working under unfair conditions (thats an understatement).



Jon-Erich said:
nomad said:
Wow, people here are actually against minimum wages. You guys must either be business owners who suck at making money or employees who don't like getting paid for working.

Switzerland doesn't have a minimum wage and they seem to be doing great. In fact a few years ago, they had a national referendum to have a $25 minimum wage and the voters voted it down because most people there apparently make more than that. Having that artificial standard would have given some business owners the insentive to pay pay people less. That's what a minimum wage does. It creates an artificial standard that is not reflective of the state of the economy or the marketplace. Depending on the wages, having a minimum wage could either cause someone to get paid far less than what they should be getting paid or far more than what is economically viable, much like what we're seeing in Washington state. If the wages were more reflective of what the marketplace demanded, most people probably would be making a decent wage, just like in Switzerland.

Then again, Switzerland hasn't been involved in a war in over 200 years and is far more fiscally responsible than the United States, which is largely why that country so well off economically.

Switzerland also has hundreds of collective bargaining agreements covering the majority of its workers which actually does impose a minimum wage, which is the 9th highest minimum wage in the world, so it isn't exactly entirely accurate to imply that the Swiss have no minimum wage. They just handle the concept differently.

I wouldn't oppose the USA shifting over to that type of system, but it would require some pretty massive changes (which I would assume the people against minimum wage would hate)



JRPGfan said:

Minimum wages are there to protect the workforce from the corporations.

Actually, minimum wages were created to keep black people out of the workforce. The modern "intentions" may have changed, but the outcome is still very much similar.

http://www.latimes.com/opinion/op-ed/la-oe-0405-leonard-minimum-wage-20160405-story.html
https://fee.org/articles/the-eugenics-plot-of-the-minimum-wage/
https://mises.org/blog/minimum-wage-and-progressive-eugenics-again
https://www.princeton.edu/~tleonard/papers/retrospectives.pdf
https://newrepublic.com/article/128144/dark-history-liberal-reform
http://reason.com/archives/2016/06/12/the-secret-history-of-the-mini



Some people in here are saying it would hurt business owners to keep the minimum wage higher, but owning a business isn't a right, it's a privilege. If the only way you can own a business is by underpaying employees, then you're not doing a very good job and it might be time to consider something else.



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JRPGfan said:
vivster said:
The government should support small business to stay open but some business are not meant to be. Higher minimum wage helps everyone.

^ this.

If you cant afford to pay your workers 7$ you should probably move on to something else.

More often than not, if something fails its not due to the worker's wages but most likely mis management.

 

I guess this is to prevent moveing work forces to china where they have a minimum wage of like 3$.

Can it really have that big a impact paying your workers 4-7$ more? Greedy rich bastards most of these people that move jobs over sea's.

You and the above, completely don't get it.  It's oh so painfully obvious.  Go start a business and then start talking. SMH.



Rpruett said:

You and the above, completely don't get it.  It's oh so painfully obvious.  Go start a business and then start talking. SMH.

I don't think a lot of these posters realise that it's not just a wage that you pay people. There's payroll taxes, training, mandated benefits, paperwork, insurance, etc.

When you hire an individual, you take on all those costs as well as a salary - up to a third of the salary goes in additional taxes alone.

Back in London, if you're a software engineer in the Wharf, you can choose two ways of going about it: as an employee, or as a individual contractor. Being a contractor, you forgo all the mandated benefits, and the employer can skip out on a lot of the taxes. The net result is contractors end up earning 40-50% more than the regular employees. To the employer, the cost is essentially the same whether you're contracted or employed.



atomicblue said:
Some people in here are saying it would hurt business owners to keep the minimum wage higher, but owning a business isn't a right, it's a privilege. If the only way you can own a business is by underpaying employees, then you're not doing a very good job and it might be time to consider something else.

It would hurt businesses to keep the minimum wage higher.  Full stop.  There's plenty of evidence that suggests it.   Wages aren't charity either. They are earned through working.   Go create a business, go create jobs for people, go invest everything you have to make it happen and then we can talk about business acumen.

It's quite simple supply/demand economics - when prices go up on just about anything, people will buy less of that anything.  If you have the government artificially inflating the base wage cost (prices go up),  businesses will buy less of them. 



let the market decide the wages. there will always be HS kids to flip burgers for video game money for 6 bucks an hour.



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Rpruett said:

You and the above, completely don't get it.  It's oh so painfully obvious.  Go start a business and then start talking. SMH.

I don't think you get it.

The bulk of consumers are low-income and middle-income earners, If the minimum wage is increased, everyone earns more. Which means everyone can spend more. Which means more chances for your business to profit.
My country has a $17.70 minimum wage, small businesses do perfectly fine, in-fact, they employ the majority of people in my country, which completely destroys your belief.

https://ww2.kqed.org/news/2017/01/03/minimum-wage-goes-up-and-so-does-business-thats-what-this-fast-food-ceo-says-happened/
http://www.valuesandcapitalism.com/what-actually-happens-when-you-raise-the-minimum-wage/
https://hiring.monster.com/hr/hr-best-practices/small-business/employee-motivation/raising-hourly-wages.aspx

It also means more people can afford your ridiculously overpriced education and healthcare in the USA so they can have more opportunities in life.



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