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Forums - Politics Discussion - Carrier just showed corporations how to beat Donald Trump

Soundwave said:
tokilamockingbrd said:

leftist don't understand economics. They think you can have free trade and heavily tax corporation and expect them to stay here and provide US jobs. Socialist like Bernie do not like to see any taxes go down. That is less money they can steal to buy votes. 

If you want socialism to work you need a closed society. 

If you want want capitalism to work (on a global scale) you need to implent controls to level the differing economies.

Completely free trade will never work for the richer countries (long term) until economic conditions WW have parity. The globalist have tried to achieve this by gutting the US manufactoring base through trade deals and obscene amounts of red tape. They have brainwashed their minions that no one wants these jobs and they will never come back. People like you have seen in this thread buy into this. 

Leftist go nuts over the idea that a simple tax break of 7 mil over 10 years throws their theory on it's it. They are going to go ballistic when regulations are reduced, taxes cut, and local governments offer further incentives. The US economy has been retarded by bad policy. I believe it is going make up for lost time. 

You are equally naive in economics. 

Maximizing profits and maintain individual wealth is the highest maxim of capitalism. Why should an employer have to pay $10-$20/hour if there's other people willing to do the same job for $2/hour? 

What you are describing are basically (gasp!) socialist controls. 

America and manufacturing has never been that great any way, it's an overblown concept. Yes in the 40s/50s was nice, but this is like Nintendo in the 80s ... they had no one to compete against but shitty little Sega and had full monopoly over all third party developers. Once they had to compete against Sony and Microsoft and didn't have full control over third parties, we saw what happened. Who was the US' competetion in the past? UK was devastated after WW2 and say their imperialist empire crumble. Ditto for France. Germany was divided in two and Japan was gutted by WW2 as well. China and Russia were under communist rule. Once the US had to compete against Japan and West Germany (eventually unified Germany) they showed themselves to be nothing all that great, and then came China and the collapse of the USSR meant Russia could also compete too. 

Even in the 80s/early 90s, I remember the saying was don't ever buy American stuff. If you want quality you buy Japanese. And if you got money to spend, Japanese or German cars for sure. 

Capitalism is not about having a gaurunteed job either ... again this is socialist thought. It's about pure unbridled market control, if you can't cut it too bad, so sad, that's competetion. Just because you are a factory worker doesn't mean you're entitled to a job if market conditions change. Nationalist captialism is also an oxymoron, investors always demand higher profit (setting some arbitrary "this is good enough" line for profit is again anti-capitalist) as such a global capitalism with access to the maximum number of consumers at the lowest production cost was never going to be stopped. 

There is a thing called a stock exchange too, and stock investors don't give two shits about which company is from where. If US companies were restricted to manufacturing and selling mainly in the US, investors would invest in Chinese, Russian, and Japanese companies. Some other country would take over as the global economic/capitalist power if there was a power vacuum left worldwide like that. Globalism and capitalism go hand in hand, this is what the conspiracy nuts who make $30k-$60k a year don't understand. 

you are confusing capitalism at the national level and capitalism at the global level.

Trump is not a free market capitalist at the global level, however he is at the national level. He does not advocate on the government picking winners and losers between states, but he support the federal gov creating controls to prevent other countries for fleecing us. 



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numberwang said:

Even Bernie flip-flopped on that issue.

 

Actually, you're illustrating that Bernie held firm on his position lol. He's the one who penned the Post op-ed. First he said Carrier should be stopped (or taxed for) moving the jobs, then he said Trump let them go easy on half the jobs and gave them a tax break. He essentially repeated his original demands. Trump is now proving himself to be quiteither the "loser" to use his words as President-elect.



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The US has one of the highest corporate tax rates in the Western world. Jobs get outsourced not (just) because its cheaper to hire/work in other nations, but because whatever they do make, gets taxed. Thus why corporate inversions and loopholes are so popular.

Hopefully he reduces the corporate tax rate to 15% as he promised. I would imagine quite a few scenarios where jobs come back to the US, and/or stay here instead of moving overseas.

I always love how people bemoan "The loss of tax dollars" because of deals/cuts made... Guess how many millions more get lost if 100% of the jobs leave? Tax breaks for businesses to locate to a specific area are always offset by the increase of income and other taxes.



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bunchanumbers said:
AAA300 said:

I take it your a glass half empty type of person. If he had saved all the jobs  you and some of the blind people on this site would find something to complain about. Like why couldn't he get them raises or more vacation! You need to look at the big picture the jobs were gone!!!!!!! Trump saved 1100 jobs by negotiating with them before they moved permanently something OBAMA WASN'T GOING TO DO AND NEITHER WAS CLINTON! And as for him promoting this, its a good thing that he shows all Americans he's got there back and that he will work for the jobs we need. The leader of a nation needs to be a cheerleader for the country in order to install confidence to their people! So be happy for the people he's help.

You can look at my previous post. Trump has no business interfering with what a business does. And we don't need the leader of a nation to be a cheerleader. We need him to be a leader. Let others cheer. He has a country to run.

But the government has their hands and feet already in every major corporation. They dictate to each other back and forth.



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outlawauron said:
bunchanumbers said:

You can look at my previous post. Trump has no business interfering with what a business does. And we don't need the leader of a nation to be a cheerleader. We need him to be a leader. Let others cheer. He has a country to run.

But the government has their hands and feet already in every major corporation. They dictate to each other back and forth.

So now the president has to step in every time a company is thinking about taking jobs out of the country? Its just not feasible. This was a photo op and a PR opportunity that sets bad precedents.



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bunchanumbers said:
outlawauron said:

But the government has their hands and feet already in every major corporation. They dictate to each other back and forth.

So now the president has to step in every time a company is thinking about taking jobs out of the country? Its just not feasible. This was a photo op and a PR opportunity that sets bad precedents.

But contrary to what you said, he doesn't have a country to run. He's picking his cabinets and speaking to people at his tour. That's what he's responsible for right now. 



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mrstickball said:
The US has one of the highest corporate tax rates in the Western world. Jobs get outsourced not (just) because its cheaper to hire/work in other nations, but because whatever they do make, gets taxed. Thus why corporate inversions and loopholes are so popular.

Hopefully he reduces the corporate tax rate to 15% as he promised. I would imagine quite a few scenarios where jobs come back to the US, and/or stay here instead of moving overseas.

I always love how people bemoan "The loss of tax dollars" because of deals/cuts made... Guess how many millions more get lost if 100% of the jobs leave? Tax breaks for businesses to locate to a specific area are always offset by the increase of income and other taxes.

Bottom line is people are willing to work for far less in other countries. Americans thumb their nose down at $8/hour. 

$8/hour gets your 4-5 workers in China, lol, and Americans expect paid medical, dental, paid vacation, etc. Not saying they're wrong to want that, but this is the elephant in the room no one wants to talk about. If you don't do it, then your competetion will do it, and now suddenly you are at an competitive disadvantage. 

Corporate tax rates and trade deals don't change the fact that you can make virtually any product cheaper any where than in America. 

The other problem -- automation is becoming cheaper than any workers at all. I've a robotic spot welder in a car factory for example costs $8/hour (averaged out) to function. To pay an actual worker to do that job is $25/hour and the robot can work 18-19-20 hours, etc. 



outlawauron said:
bunchanumbers said:

So now the president has to step in every time a company is thinking about taking jobs out of the country? Its just not feasible. This was a photo op and a PR opportunity that sets bad precedents.

But contrary to what you said, he doesn't have a country to run. He's picking his cabinets and speaking to people at his tour. That's what he's responsible for right now. 

Thats my point. Will he be doing this in February? March? In 2018? Every time a company is talking about moving jobs are we going to expect him to make a personal intervention? He just might. He loves the spotlight. But it just shows that he is putting more thumbs in more cracks in a dam that has been breaking for decades.



SocialistSlayer said:
LurkerJ said:

 

Although I dont like this crony-capitalist deal, I dont see how taxpayers are losing $7million dollars. How is Carrier keeping more of their own money making anyone lose money?

Because it's hypocracy for people who are against crony-capitalism.  It creates an uneven playing field.  Carrier get's $7 million tax break, what about all the other corporations in that state?  Once again government picking winners and losers based on politics.  _AND_ it's still a lose lose because jobs are still going to Mexico and a plant is still getting shut down.



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Trump isn't even president! Hey, at least he actually tried to keep jobs in America vs just letting them leave like with Obama.



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