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Forums - Movies & TV - Captain America: Civil War – BIG RANT and many plot spoilers inside (you should save your time and money and not see it now)

Runa216 said:

Because one was done well, with good writing, likeable characters you could enjoy watching, and had some heart and soul behind it. 

The other was dour, stupid, poorly made, and done with more style than substance. 

Batman b Superman had some great themes and ideas in it, all poorly handled throughout without any true depth of character, poor writing, and....I just need to stop.  The box office receipts combined with reviews and ticket sale patterns show people HATED Batman v Superman but quite loved Civil War.  Neither were flawless, but it's clear from virtually every metric which one was the better film and why. 

The problems are practically identical in both films, both films are more style then substance, having seen both I can say fully that double standards is in full swing when it comes to both films, neither film is better or worse than the other it just comes down to whether someone prefers the darker tone of BVS or not.



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d21lewis said:
Runa216 said:

Because one was done well, with good writing, likeable characters you could enjoy watching, and had some heart and soul behind it. 

The other was dour, stupid, poorly made, and done with more style than substance. 

Batman b Superman had some great themes and ideas in it, all poorly handled throughout without any true depth of character, poor writing, and....I just need to stop.  The box office receipts combined with reviews and ticket sale patterns show people HATED Batman v Superman but quite loved Civil War.  Neither were flawless, but it's clear from virtually every metric which one was the better film and why. 

Hated? Based on the box office receipts? C'mon, Runa! BvS got destroyed at the box office by Civil War but it still made almost a billion dollars!

yes, it made a lot of money, but for what it is it should have made double that.  Batman and Superman are not just comic book icons but also pop culture icons.  Based on the opening day and worldwide opening, it should have been on par with The Avengers, at least. 

Instead, once word got out, its dailies dropped like a rock, giving it one of the biggest friday to sunday drops of all time, with one of the worst first to second weekend drops of the superhero genre.  People hated it, and the box office patterns prove it.  The 870 million it made was really the floor for this movie, once it was all said and done.  



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Wyrdness said:
Runa216 said:

Because one was done well, with good writing, likeable characters you could enjoy watching, and had some heart and soul behind it. 

The other was dour, stupid, poorly made, and done with more style than substance. 

Batman b Superman had some great themes and ideas in it, all poorly handled throughout without any true depth of character, poor writing, and....I just need to stop.  The box office receipts combined with reviews and ticket sale patterns show people HATED Batman v Superman but quite loved Civil War.  Neither were flawless, but it's clear from virtually every metric which one was the better film and why. 

The problems are practically identical in both films, both films are more style then substance, having seen both I can say fully that double standards is in full swing when it comes to both films, neither film is better or worse than the other it just comes down to whether someone prefers the darker tone of BVS or not.

I have also seen both films, once each just for fun, the second to actually analyze the film.  If you honestly don't see the two as being night and day in style, aesthetic, mentality, and quality, then you're not really looking.  

The reviews, the box office, the crowd responses, the ticket sales, etc...all that shows that one was the superior film.  I don't disagree that sometimes peopel can not 'get' a movie, or sometimes a shitty movie can make a lot of money (Minions, for example), but when a movie makes money it does so for a reason. 

Transformers makes a lot of money (especially overseas) because it has cool action sequences, big flashy explosions, and people know going in that the film is pretty terrible and that they can shut their brain off.  furthermore, lowest common denominator jokes are easier to translate than subtle cultural references and explosions are universal.  

Batman v Superman did well, but underperformed because it's a bad film and people hated it.  It had no heart, no soul, no love behind it.  It looks pretty and has some great themes and ideas in it, but with how much Batman was killing and Superman was scowling and Luthor was prancing around like the riddler, it wasn't well liked.  It was 'wrong'.  everything about that movie is wrong.  yet, a 'wrong' thing can still be 'right' if done well.  Iron Man 3 got a LOT of scorn for its portrayal of the mandarin, but within the realm of the film series that had been created, Trevor Slattery made sense.  it's just as easy to go "You know...that makes sense" as it is to scream and throw something at your screen.  

With Batman v Superman, every other scene there was some variation of "Why the hell did that character do that?  What is this?  where are we?  who is this?" because they don't make their movie correctly.  No establishing shot, poor editing, dour tone, poorly conveyed characters, and an absolutely pants-on-head retarded climactic fight scene.  

And no, I'm not just a fanboy.  I like good movies regardless of their source.  it just so happens to be that Marvel movies are pretty universally better than DC movies.  (with the exception of the original superman, original batman, and the Dark Knight/Batman Begins).  Honestly, I wish DC could learn from their animated films, those are pretty universally awesome.  



My Console Library:

PS5, Switch, XSX

PS4, PS3, PS2, PS1, WiiU, Wii, GCN, N64 SNES, XBO, 360

3DS, DS, GBA, Vita, PSP, Android

Runa216 said:
d21lewis said:

Hated? Based on the box office receipts? C'mon, Runa! BvS got destroyed at the box office by Civil War but it still made almost a billion dollars!

yes, it made a lot of money, but for what it is it should have made double that.  Batman and Superman are not just comic book icons but also pop culture icons.  Based on the opening day and worldwide opening, it should have been on par with The Avengers, at least. 

Instead, once word got out, its dailies dropped like a rock, giving it one of the biggest friday to sunday drops of all time, with one of the worst first to second weekend drops of the superhero genre.  People hated it, and the box office patterns prove it.  The 870 million it made was really the floor for this movie, once it was all said and done.  

Yeah. They hated Harry Potter and the Deathly Hollows part 2, too. That movie had the bigger drop off, right? In fact:http://www.boxofficemojo.com/alltime/weekends/drops.htm

Batman and Superman are iconic. They've both been in great movies in the past. How do their great movies compare to the total gross of the horrible BvS? I mean box office is the metric, right? BvS was just a front loaded movie. Nothing wrong with that, is it? I'd say they did okay considering, by comparison, Civil War had almost every MCU hero in it besides Hulk, Thor, and Nick Fury. More characters automatically means more money?



Runa216 said:

I have also seen both films, once each just for fun, the second to actually analyze the film.  If you honestly don't see the two as being night and day in style, aesthetic, mentality, and quality, then you're not really looking.  

The reviews, the box office, the crowd responses, the ticket sales, etc...all that shows that one was the superior film.  I don't disagree that sometimes peopel can not 'get' a movie, or sometimes a shitty movie can make a lot of money (Minions, for example), but when a movie makes money it does so for a reason. 

Transformers makes a lot of money (especially overseas) because it has cool action sequences, big flashy explosions, and people know going in that the film is pretty terrible and that they can shut their brain off.  furthermore, lowest common denominator jokes are easier to translate than subtle cultural references and explosions are universal.  

Batman v Superman did well, but underperformed because it's a bad film and people hated it.  It had no heart, no soul, no love behind it.  It looks pretty and has some great themes and ideas in it, but with how much Batman was killing and Superman was scowling and Luthor was prancing around like the riddler, it wasn't well liked.  It was 'wrong'.  everything about that movie is wrong.  yet, a 'wrong' thing can still be 'right' if done well.  Iron Man 3 got a LOT of scorn for its portrayal of the mandarin, but within the realm of the film series that had been created, Trevor Slattery made sense.  it's just as easy to go "You know...that makes sense" as it is to scream and throw something at your screen.  

With Batman v Superman, every other scene there was some variation of "Why the hell did that character do that?  What is this?  where are we?  who is this?" because they don't make their movie correctly.  No establishing shot, poor editing, dour tone, poorly conveyed characters, and an absolutely pants-on-head retarded climactic fight scene.  

And no, I'm not just a fanboy.  I like good movies regardless of their source.  it just so happens to be that Marvel movies are pretty universally better than DC movies.  (with the exception of the original superman, original batman, and the Dark Knight/Batman Begins).  Honestly, I wish DC could learn from their animated films, those are pretty universally awesome.  

Transformers makes more money then the majority of films that doesn't mean it's better than all of them either way BVS made almost a billion and considering this is only the second film in a unified DC set that's a good start and your post highlights what I mean about double standards when you start arguing about what's wrong in BVS.

Captain America starts randomly assaulting officers of the law out of the blue the second his friend becomes a topic and even in the chase scene he's ramming vehicles of citizens to try and shake Black Panther off, you let the Mandarin issue slide because it's in the realms of what has been created yet Lex Luther himself is the same in BVS he was more like the earlier incarnations in the comics when he was more mad scientist like as opposed to his latter incarnation. Batman in the comics also started ignoring his own rule after the second Robin died so in fact BVS was closer to its material then CW was. 

For someone who claims to not be a fanboy you're coming across as as one with this response no offence, I don't even have a preference of either Marvel or DC I just watch them to be entertained. To highlight flaws in CW the villain wants revenge yet rather than release the potential enemies who can fight and defeat the Avengers he knocks them off and waits and the plot just conveniently has Ironman, CA and TWS all turn up at the same time this is even more outlandish then the attempts by Lex in BVS at least the latter put in a good performance for his role as a villain Zemo was hardly a factor at all and his backstory was like 5 minutes. For a film about the consequences of their actions it ends with no change at all despite the events that have taken place which considering the whole Civil War saga in the comics had enormous effect on things afterward, instead the whole situation is brushed of like last Tuesday no doubt in preparation for Infinity Gauntlet and Infinity War. 

As I said before both films have the same flaws and neither is better or worse it just comes down to whether someone likes something darker in tone or not.



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Add me to the list of people who are baffled by the vastly different critical reception. I have yet to understand why BvS is getting nitpicked at to hell... when similar nitpicking can be applied to both movies, to the point that both shoehorned unnecessary characters.

At least, BvS had the better dialogue, a much better villain, better themes & sub-themes, and it's great moments were really great. Inside its mess, there is great entertainment for all, except for the humor. Not that I am a fan of Civil War sitcomish jokes.

oh, and Jesse Eisenberg FTW



d21lewis said:
-Heroes using lethal force against people who were just doing their jobs?

Where? When? I can't remember a single time that happened in the movie. In the razzia where JTTF raid Bucky's apartment, they even make a point out of Bucky *not* trying to kill the guards (except for that one person he almost threw down between the stairs, which, once again, they made a point out of Cap grabbing and rescuing the dude and looking at Bucky being all "come on dude, not okay".)

 

As for why I personally preferred Civil War, and consider it a vastly superior movie compared to BvS, it really comes down to two things which seriously put me off BvS.

#1. The pacing and plot. BvS was all over the place, and I sometimes struggled following whatever story was there. Heck, I asked my friend who I saw the movie with about what he thought, and he said "It was cool and all, seeing superheroes beat each other up, but.... there basically was no coherent story."

#2. The characters motivation. Civil War wasn't hardly flawless in this regard, but compared to BvS, it was a masterpiece.

 

I don't really care for the nitpicky reasons why people disliked either movie, BvS's real problem had nothing to do with that, and more to do with the overall poor execution of the entire film.



Teeqoz said:

Where? When? I can't remember a single time that happened in the movie. In the razzia where JTTF raid Bucky's apartment, they even make a point out of Bucky *not* trying to kill the guards (except for that one person he almost threw down between the stairs, which, once again, they made a point out of Cap grabbing and rescuing the dude and looking at Bucky being all "come on dude, not okay".)

 

As for why I personally preferred Civil War, and consider it a vastly superior movie compared to BvS, it really comes down to two things which seriously put me off BvS.

#1. The pacing and plot. BvS was all over the place, and I sometimes struggled following whatever story was there. Heck, I asked my friend who I saw the movie with about what he thought, and he said "It was cool and all, seeing superheroes beat each other up, but.... there basically was no coherent story."

#2. The characters motivation. Civil War wasn't hardly flawless in this regard, but compared to BvS, it was a masterpiece.

 

I don't really care for the nitpicky reasons why people disliked either movie, BvS's real problem had nothing to do with that, and more to do with the overall poor execution of the entire film.

I don't recall lethal force tbh but I will bring up the car chase scene where CA is ramming civilian vehicles in an attempt to shake Black Panther of the SUV he's driving while causing all kinds of chaos on the road.



Final-Fan said:
DonFerrari said:

The discussion I was doing is that the government isn't to be trusted with "infinite power" and you seems to agree... anyway the point was against people that are merry thinking about the great father that is the state and the angelical politicians.

I can agree with that sentiment.  But I do have one question:  how is defending the internment camps an example of NOT trusting the government with more power? 

I'm not defending. I'm saying I understand why it was necessary and justifiable at the time (and war is ugly) and is a consequence of government extreme power (citizens use to subsize when in face of danger and let government roll over them). And my point was more on the side of politicians of the XIX century were more thrustworthy than the ones from the XXI, just that.

d21lewis said:
Runa216 said:

yes, it made a lot of money, but for what it is it should have made double that.  Batman and Superman are not just comic book icons but also pop culture icons.  Based on the opening day and worldwide opening, it should have been on par with The Avengers, at least. 

Instead, once word got out, its dailies dropped like a rock, giving it one of the biggest friday to sunday drops of all time, with one of the worst first to second weekend drops of the superhero genre.  People hated it, and the box office patterns prove it.  The 870 million it made was really the floor for this movie, once it was all said and done.  

Yeah. They hated Harry Potter and the Deathly Hollows part 2, too. That movie had the bigger drop off, right? In fact:http://www.boxofficemojo.com/alltime/weekends/drops.htm

Batman and Superman are iconic. They've both been in great movies in the past. How do their great movies compare to the total gross of the horrible BvS? I mean box office is the metric, right? BvS was just a front loaded movie. Nothing wrong with that, is it? I'd say they did okay considering, by comparison, Civil War had almost every MCU hero in it besides Hulk, Thor, and Nick Fury. More characters automatically means more money?

Just to add one small tidbit. Most HP fan would say the movies are very bad compared to the books, but they watch in droves because they love the universe.



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DonFerrari said:
Final-Fan said:

I can agree with that sentiment.  But I do have one question:  how is defending the internment camps an example of NOT trusting the government with more power? 

I'm not defending. I'm saying I understand why it was necessary and justifiable at the time (and war is ugly) and is a consequence of government extreme power (citizens use to subsize when in face of danger and let government roll over them). And my point was more on the side of politicians of the XIX century were more thrustworthy than the ones from the XXI, just that.

d21lewis said:

Yeah. They hated Harry Potter and the Deathly Hollows part 2, too. That movie had the bigger drop off, right? In fact:http://www.boxofficemojo.com/alltime/weekends/drops.htm

Batman and Superman are iconic. They've both been in great movies in the past. How do their great movies compare to the total gross of the horrible BvS? I mean box office is the metric, right? BvS was just a front loaded movie. Nothing wrong with that, is it? I'd say they did okay considering, by comparison, Civil War had almost every MCU hero in it besides Hulk, Thor, and Nick Fury. More characters automatically means more money?

Just to add one small tidbit. Most HP fan would say the movies are very bad compared to the books, but they watch in droves because they love the universe.

HP fans sound like hardcore comics fans! But when it comes to bringing the literature to life, we take what we can get!