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Forums - Movies & TV - Captain America: Civil War – BIG RANT and many plot spoilers inside (you should save your time and money and not see it now)

LurkerJ said:

I didn't know who Lex was before seeing the movie. Yup, that's how ignorant I am when it comes to comics and superheroes. I never heard of him before!

So You are absolutely right, new comers will have a blast following his storyline, just like I did. I only read reviews after watching the movie and it was SHOCKING to read people complaints about the villain. Some even suggested this he was not the real Lex lmao. What shocked me more was reading what others thought was wrong with the movie. Just sounds like nitpicking and asking the producers to spoon feed us every bit of info because some can't just think it out.

And the thing is, if I speak positively about BvS then I am automatically lumped DC fanboys... yeah, what a super fanboy I am, not knowing who Lex was.... 

Yeah sadly comic book fans are as bad as gamers and possibly worse when it comes to be fanatical, I'm not even of any preference to any company and at most a light comic book fan but it's easy as hell to come under fire from any side.



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Wyrdness said:
LurkerJ said:

I didn't know who Lex was before seeing the movie. Yup, that's how ignorant I am when it comes to comics and superheroes. I never heard of him before!

So You are absolutely right, new comers will have a blast following his storyline, just like I did. I only read reviews after watching the movie and it was SHOCKING to read people complaints about the villain. Some even suggested this he was not the real Lex lmao. What shocked me more was reading what others thought was wrong with the movie. Just sounds like nitpicking and asking the producers to spoon feed us every bit of info because some can't just think it out.

And the thing is, if I speak positively about BvS then I am automatically lumped DC fanboys... yeah, what a super fanboy I am, not knowing who Lex was.... 

Yeah sadly comic book fans are as bad as gamers and possibly worse when it comes to be fanatical, I'm not even of any preference to any company and at most a light comic book fan but it's easy as hell to come under fire from any side.

Also there are people who have never cracked open a comic but have still chosen a side and vehemently attack other properties. I dress as green lantern with a group for special events. One of my friends dresses as Deadpool and knows nothing about comics or even his character outside of Facebook memes but he still attacks DC relentlessly!

He says he portrays Deadpool when he was a lovable character before Hollywood made him darker and gritty . Wtf!?!



d21lewis said:

Also there are people who have never cracked open a comic but have still chosen a side and vehemently attack other properties. I dress as green lantern with a group for special events. One of my friends dresses as Deadpool and knows nothing about comics or even his character outside of Facebook memes but he still attacks DC relentlessly!

He says he portrays Deadpool when he was a lovable character before Hollywood made him darker and gritty . Wtf!?!

Perhaps he is confusing Deadpool with Woody Woodpecker. 



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Final-Fan said:
d21lewis said:

Also there are people who have never cracked open a comic but have still chosen a side and vehemently attack other properties. I dress as green lantern with a group for special events. One of my friends dresses as Deadpool and knows nothing about comics or even his character outside of Facebook memes but he still attacks DC relentlessly!

He says he portrays Deadpool when he was a lovable character before Hollywood made him darker and gritty . Wtf!?!

Perhaps he is confusing Deadpool with Woody Woodpecker. 

This is a win quote.



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Civil War was amazing



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Wyrdness said:

Yeah sadly comic book fans are as bad as gamers and possibly worse when it comes to be fanatical, I'm not even of any preference to any company and at most a light comic book fan but it's easy as hell to come under fire from any side.

I can't speak for others but I'm not fanatical of either brand, Marvel or DC.  I don't read comics, my experiences with either franchise/universe are through movies and some TV alone. 

But I'm also a film student (well, graduate), andI know good movies when I see them. Marvel movies have just been better the past few years.  Well, the MCU movies have been, not so much on Fant-Four-Stic and others.  

The quality, depth, and tone of the marvel movies has been what has actually MADE me like Marvel, not the other way around.  I didn't grow up without DC but surrounded by Marvel.  I didn't thrive in a clique of marvel fans. 

I'm just a gal who knows good filmmaking, and the Marvel movies are doing a much better job. 



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Runa216 said:
Wyrdness said:

Yeah sadly comic book fans are as bad as gamers and possibly worse when it comes to be fanatical, I'm not even of any preference to any company and at most a light comic book fan but it's easy as hell to come under fire from any side.

I can't speak for others but I'm not fanatical of either brand, Marvel or DC.  I don't read comics, my experiences with either franchise/universe are through movies and some TV alone. 

But I'm also a film student (well, graduate), andI know good movies when I see them. Marvel movies have just been better the past few years.  Well, the MCU movies have been, not so much on Fant-Four-Stic and others.  

The quality, depth, and tone of the marvel movies has been what has actually MADE me like Marvel, not the other way around.  I didn't grow up without DC but surrounded by Marvel.  I didn't thrive in a clique of marvel fans. 

I'm just a gal who knows good filmmaking, and the Marvel movies are doing a much better job. 

That's nice to know! And taking advantage of your studies, can you say, from a filmmaker/specialist position, that Civil War was a good movie? Especially considering the script?



On a side note, this made way much more sense:

 



Wyrdness said:
method114 said:

This isn't true at all. The dilemma between both sides is very understandable and believeable in civil war. In bvs it's poorly written and makes batman and superman look like children. Seriously at one point batman is chasing down criminals and superman stops him just to have a talk and doesn't even help stop the bad guys made no sense at all. Batman vs superman also had two major story lines going in that movie and tried to cram them into one movie jus because. Civil war didn't try to do that and focused on one story line. I actually prefer the dark tone of the DC universe but his movie was just not well done. People like you keep coming out and trying to defend it there is a reason your in the minority. There is no double standard. Next time DC should focus on one story Line at a time and make them believable. Like superman should have bee introduced to red kryptonite and gone rogue that would have made bvs believable but it would have take more time introducing it and it would have taken away from the doomsday story they wanted to cram into the end of the movie. Something that should have been its own movie. You don't cram the death of superman into a batman vs superman movie.

The dilema maybe believeable but its execution is far from it and in some cases more outlandish than in BVS, if people like me are defending BVS in your own words then people like you are guilty of double standards. CW focused on one storyline and came out with the same flaws as BVS and the latter had 40 or so minutes cut from its cinema release for a director's cut mind you.

Case point, people said outside of Batman and Superman that Wonder Woman really had no business in the movie yet Spiderman in CW is the most shoehorned character between the movies but its fine in the eyes of your camp, the villain in CW was basically a cameo appearance through out with only 5 minutes dedicated to explaining his motive, he's one of the most insignificant villains I've watched in any comic book movie and is porbably the worst. He essentially was a weak plot device to get the heroes to fight, well that and Captain America going off his rocker at the mention and sight of Bucky and your camp complain about the lack of fleshing out the story in BVS not to mention the villain's plan was so face/palm worthy and silly it's laughable. They focused on one storyline and ended up making one of the most significant sagas in the Marvel comics history end up being a watered down mess that in end seemed inconsequencial which is ironic as the whole fiasco was built on the consequence of their actions, the storyline by default was already in trouble due to the license conflict between Marvel and Fox. The film is essentially just an excuse to have heroes fight rather than the actual storyline and event it's based off.

As I said it's not a bad film but it's no different to its counterpart as it also shares the same flaws don't give a shit if that hurts the feelings of any fan here yourself included as I don't have a preference between these companies, both films are practically the same to me in their flaws.

*Spolers* First off, I'm not sure exactly what the licensing conflict with Fox has to do with anything... Deadpool wasn't in Civil War, X-Men had a brief cameo where they basically said fuck off (which was a ridiculous thing for the X-Men to do but then there were only like two xmen at that point).  The only Fox characters that had anything to do with Civil war are the Fantastic Four, and even they weren't a big part of it.  Reed Richards' role is redundant with Iron Man's, and the whole point of Sue being there is to be like OH SHIT EVEN THE FANTASTIC FOUR ARE FIGHTING EACHOTHER! THIS IS SUPER SERIOUS YOU GUYS!  Johnny spends the whole time in a coma while Ben peaces out.     

That's not to mention that Civil War was a kind of terrible story in general with all parties acting way out of character for the sole purpose of poking and prodding eachother into battle.  The whole point of the story is for Millar to make a statement about Bush era politics, with Iron Man playing the super villain.  *Spoilers* cloning Thor, releasing brainwashed superheroes into battle, locking people in an alternate dimension with no due process... Shitty story that made comics unreadable basically till Hickman started on Avengers and remembered that super heroes are supposed to do heroic things now and then, and actually showed heroes dealing with moral dilemmas that weren't so forced.

Moving beyond the civil war comic books, people are not criticising Batman Superman more because of double standards.  Both movies are bound to have similar flaws, because they're both action movies, both superhero movies, and are also both movies where superheroes battle eachothers.  The flaws you'd point out in either are typical of action movies.  The difference is degree.  Punching someone in the face is a violent crime.  So is murder.  One carries a steeper penalty...

For example, you say they didn't do justice to the Civil War storyline? (Not sure how you expected anything close to a direct conversion of a story that took place over the span of about 100 comics involving well over 100 characters in the first place.) Well Batman vs Superman crams the Death of Superman story into ten minutes (and don't really have the death part) after they're done butchering the Dark Knight Returns story.  That's a twofer.

The villain was just a cameo appearance you say?  How about Doomsday who appears at the very end of the story with no more motivation than "grrrr Doomsday mad" (though to be fair he's just as shitty in the comics).  And how about the fact that Zemo has about 40 lines of dialogue in the movie.  Superman has 43.  And he's one of the leads!  He's in the title!  Look over Supes' lines and then explain to me how his motivations are more well defined than Zemo's https://www.reddit.com/r/movies/comments/4f9ivz/superman_only_has_a_total_of_43_lines_of_dialogue/.  

And Zemo wasn't the focus on the movie.  The movie was called Civil War, implying a focus on the battle between the Avengers.  The marketing promised a movie focusing on conflict between the Avengers.  And lo and behold, the movie was about conflict between the Avengers.  I mean they could have dragged a villain out of the Earth for a "heroes unite to fight a common threat" cliche ending, but they chose not to.  Probably cause that'd suck noodle.

Zemo had a purpose, and he served that purpose.  But he was not the primary antagonist.  Iron man was the primary antagonist, and his screentime was consistent with that role.

As for others issues you didn't specifically mention, did Cap and Iron Man not communicate perfectly?  Maybe.  But Superman said literally three sentences in his attempt to dissuade Superman.  Was Spider-man shoehorned?  Maybe, but not nearly to the extent of Flash or Aquaman.  Did some things change from the Civil War storyline?  Maybe.  But there was nothing as eggregious as Batman branding and killing people, or Superman being willing to kill an innocent man... or anything as bad as "nobody stays good in this world".  

As for their being 40 minutes of cut footage, that's something we call editing.  And it's part of what makes a movie good or bad.  Whatever magic may have been in those 40 minutes, it's not in the version we saw, so it's kind of irrelevant.  Plus, I'm really not sure what they could have had that was so great if they had time for "Lois and the magic bullet".

And I'm not sure exactly what was wrong with Zemo's plan.  Seemed as good as the average super hero movie plot.

So yeah.  You can try to match up flaws, but the flaws on one side are much more severe.



JWeinCom said:
Wyrdness said:

The dilema maybe believeable but its execution is far from it and in some cases more outlandish than in BVS, if people like me are defending BVS in your own words then people like you are guilty of double standards. CW focused on one storyline and came out with the same flaws as BVS and the latter had 40 or so minutes cut from its cinema release for a director's cut mind you.

Case point, people said outside of Batman and Superman that Wonder Woman really had no business in the movie yet Spiderman in CW is the most shoehorned character between the movies but its fine in the eyes of your camp, the villain in CW was basically a cameo appearance through out with only 5 minutes dedicated to explaining his motive, he's one of the most insignificant villains I've watched in any comic book movie and is porbably the worst. He essentially was a weak plot device to get the heroes to fight, well that and Captain America going off his rocker at the mention and sight of Bucky and your camp complain about the lack of fleshing out the story in BVS not to mention the villain's plan was so face/palm worthy and silly it's laughable. They focused on one storyline and ended up making one of the most significant sagas in the Marvel comics history end up being a watered down mess that in end seemed inconsequencial which is ironic as the whole fiasco was built on the consequence of their actions, the storyline by default was already in trouble due to the license conflict between Marvel and Fox. The film is essentially just an excuse to have heroes fight rather than the actual storyline and event it's based off.

As I said it's not a bad film but it's no different to its counterpart as it also shares the same flaws don't give a shit if that hurts the feelings of any fan here yourself included as I don't have a preference between these companies, both films are practically the same to me in their flaws.

*Spolers* First off, I'm not sure exactly what the licensing conflict with Fox has to do with anything... Deadpool wasn't in Civil War, X-Men had a brief cameo where they basically said fuck off (which was a ridiculous thing for the X-Men to do but then there were only like two xmen at that point).  The only Fox characters that had anything to do with Civil war are the Fantastic Four, and even they weren't a big part of it.  Reed Richards' role is redundant with Iron Man's, and the whole point of Sue being there is to be like OH SHIT EVEN THE FANTASTIC FOUR ARE FIGHTING EACHOTHER! THIS IS SUPER SERIOUS YOU GUYS!  Johnny spends the whole time in a coma while Ben peaces out.     

That's not to mention that Civil War was a kind of terrible story in general with all parties acting way out of character for the sole purpose of poking and prodding eachother into battle.  The whole point of the story is for Millar to make a statement about Bush era politics, with Iron Man playing the super villain.  *Spoilers* cloning Thor, releasing brainwashed superheroes into battle, locking people in an alternate dimension with no due process... Shitty story that made comics unreadable basically till Hickman started on Avengers and remembered that super heroes are supposed to do heroic things now and then, and actually showed heroes dealing with moral dilemmas that weren't so forced.

Moving beyond the civil war comic books, people are not criticising Batman Superman more because of double standards.  Both movies are bound to have similar flaws, because they're both action movies, both superhero movies, and are also both movies where superheroes battle eachothers.  The flaws you'd point out in either are typical of action movies.  The difference is degree.  Punching someone in the face is a violent crime.  So is murder.  One carries a steeper penalty...

For example, you say they didn't do justice to the Civil War storyline? (Not sure how you expected anything close to a direct conversion of a story that took place over the span of about 100 comics involving well over 100 characters in the first place.) Well Batman vs Superman crams the Death of Superman story into ten minutes (and don't really have the death part) after they're done butchering the Dark Knight Returns story.  That's a twofer.

The villain was just a cameo appearance you say?  How about Doomsday who appears at the very end of the story with no more motivation than "grrrr Doomsday mad" (though to be fair he's just as shitty in the comics).  And how about the fact that Zemo has about 40 lines of dialogue in the movie.  Superman has 43.  And he's one of the leads!  He's in the title!  Look over Supes' lines and then explain to me how his motivations are more well defined than Zemo's https://www.reddit.com/r/movies/comments/4f9ivz/superman_only_has_a_total_of_43_lines_of_dialogue/.  

And Zemo wasn't the focus on the movie.  The movie was called Civil War, implying a focus on the battle between the Avengers.  The marketing promised a movie focusing on conflict between the Avengers.  And lo and behold, the movie was about conflict between the Avengers.  I mean they could have dragged a villain out of the Earth for a "heroes unite to fight a common threat" cliche ending, but they chose not to.  Probably cause that'd suck noodle.

Zemo had a purpose, and he served that purpose.  But he was not the primary antagonist.  Iron man was the primary antagonist, and his screentime was consistent with that role.

As for others issues you didn't specifically mention, did Cap and Iron Man not communicate perfectly?  Maybe.  But Superman said literally three sentences in his attempt to dissuade Superman.  Was Spider-man shoehorned?  Maybe, but not nearly to the extent of Flash or Aquaman.  Did some things change from the Civil War storyline?  Maybe.  But there was nothing as eggregious as Batman branding and killing people, or Superman being willing to kill an innocent man... or anything as bad as "nobody stays good in this world".  

As for their being 40 minutes of cut footage, that's something we call editing.  And it's part of what makes a movie good or bad.  Whatever magic may have been in those 40 minutes, it's not in the version we saw, so it's kind of irrelevant.  Plus, I'm really not sure what they could have had that was so great if they had time for "Lois and the magic bullet".

And I'm not sure exactly what was wrong with Zemo's plan.  Seemed as good as the average super hero movie plot.

So yeah.  You can try to match up flaws, but the flaws on one side are much more severe.

Are we really gonna prented that Doomsday is the only and the main villain in BvS just so that you can make a point? Not to mention, you negated that same point you were trying to make by acknowledging the fact that Doomsday is a monster. Come on!

Lex Luthor made BvS for me. What a stellar perfomance, the writers outdid themsevles here. It's a shame other characters were shoehorned, and I am mainly complaining about Wonder Woman.The Flash and Aquaman were briefly mentioned, they weren't forced into the major plot like Wonder Woman was. They didn't receive much screentime. The producers only let us know that they exist somewhere on earth.

I wish Wonder Woman was brought up in a similar fashion. Instead, she was forced into a movie she had no business being in. They should've let Bruce Wayne browse through Lex's data and watch those laughabe short clips with one extra clip for WW. It wouldn't have made the clips less laughable, but at least it would've spared us the messy inclusion of WW in Lex's party and the subsequent events which include WW returning the harddrive to Bruce Wayne politely. What a lady lol

People should complain more about Wonder Woman and less about Flash and Aqua. Every minute dedicated to her was diluting a great script and possibly, a great movie. Flash and the others clips lasted for 30 seconds? big deal.

 

You say the flaws are much more severe on the other side, yet, Spider-man was definitely more forced in CW, and to a lesser degree, Ant-man. Zemo is definitely the weakest excuse of a villain I've ever seen. Although, I agree Cap and Iron Man tried harder to resolve their issues than B&S did. But as you can see, mutual problems sometimes were more of an issue in CW.

One more thing, people saying BvS had no sense of humor couldn't be more wrong, I much prefer the sense humor delivered to us by Perry White than the average sitcomish humor that Marvel movies oozes with. Just because you prefer the latter, it doesn't make the former non-existent.

Finally, the line "no one stays good in this world" is one of the many memorable lines in BvS. It's a truth, and it's one that's very relatable to our daily life and world. Coming from an almost-perfect being makes it that much more memorable and powerful. Even Superman had to bend to that ugly truth. You hated it, I loved it.