By using this site, you agree to our Privacy Policy and our Terms of Use. Close

Forums - Politics Discussion - On the topic of refugees

barneystinson69 said:
Zkuq said:
barneystinson69 said:

I'm not saying that we shouldn't help these people, but the way it is conducted is bound to be a disaster. You can't bring in millions of people at a time! Many of these aren't going to care about what they do as long as they get help! Facts are facts, these people aren't use to the western world, and they aren't integrating. Unless they can do that, I don't want them coming over.

Well, looks like we have two different opinions about them integrating. Here, we already have a large number of people from similar regions, and most of them have integrated quite nicely in time, it seems. I don't see why the new people would be any different. I'm sure not all are going to integrate that nicely, but I don't consider a small minority to be a problem. Maybe where you live integration is more of an issue than it is here? Maybe you could do things better in your country? The fact is that they're coming, it's ridiculously difficult to stop, and the ones that decide about it aren't generally ready to do enough (at least yet). Might as well mitigate the impact they have when they come. Of course if you live in a country where they don't come or can't come to, good for you.

 Who exactly has said that they're integrating? Why is there so much crime in Germany and Sweden SUDDENLY after they bring in refugee's. Why they can't they handle the load, and why are 80,000 migrants in Sweden being deported? If bringing in 20-30k refugee's can cause problems in countries far larger than Sweden, don't tell me millions won't make it different. And many of these people are African or from other parts of the middle east, not even Syrian, meaning they don't even see a reason to be there other than using the system.

 

Why is it that no go zone's in Europe are growing? Why is crime rate's increasing in cities? Even if this is a small fraction, that's far too much! 3,000,000 refugee's, 5% are bad. That's 150,000 new criminal's...

I don't know why you're asking since you almost answered your own question: it's the sudden and great numbers. It takes time to integrate and until they do, they have a higher risk of causing problems.



Around the Network
Zkuq said:
barneystinson69 said:
Zkuq said:
barneystinson69 said:

I'm not saying that we shouldn't help these people, but the way it is conducted is bound to be a disaster. You can't bring in millions of people at a time! Many of these aren't going to care about what they do as long as they get help! Facts are facts, these people aren't use to the western world, and they aren't integrating. Unless they can do that, I don't want them coming over.

Well, looks like we have two different opinions about them integrating. Here, we already have a large number of people from similar regions, and most of them have integrated quite nicely in time, it seems. I don't see why the new people would be any different. I'm sure not all are going to integrate that nicely, but I don't consider a small minority to be a problem. Maybe where you live integration is more of an issue than it is here? Maybe you could do things better in your country? The fact is that they're coming, it's ridiculously difficult to stop, and the ones that decide about it aren't generally ready to do enough (at least yet). Might as well mitigate the impact they have when they come. Of course if you live in a country where they don't come or can't come to, good for you.

 Who exactly has said that they're integrating? Why is there so much crime in Germany and Sweden SUDDENLY after they bring in refugee's. Why they can't they handle the load, and why are 80,000 migrants in Sweden being deported? If bringing in 20-30k refugee's can cause problems in countries far larger than Sweden, don't tell me millions won't make it different. And many of these people are African or from other parts of the middle east, not even Syrian, meaning they don't even see a reason to be there other than using the system.

 

Why is it that no go zone's in Europe are growing? Why is crime rate's increasing in cities? Even if this is a small fraction, that's far too much! 3,000,000 refugee's, 5% are bad. That's 150,000 new criminal's...

I don't know why you're asking since you almost answered your own question: it's the sudden and great numbers. It takes time to integrate and until they do, they have a higher risk of causing problems.

 


Integration is something people have to be willing to do. If you don't want to, it'll never happen. Show me a statistic to prove that these migrants are integrating into society well...



Made a bet with LipeJJ and HylianYoshi that the XB1 will reach 30 million before Wii U reaches 15 million. Loser has to get avatar picked by winner for 6 months (or if I lose, either 6 months avatar control for both Lipe and Hylian, or my patrick avatar comes back forever).

Aura7541 said:
Slimebeast said:
I think current immigration of refugees into Europe is disgusting. I'm completely against it and I hate melting pots and multiculturalism. I am totally for the Hungarian line - close the borders, stop immigration entirely.

I would close the borders, but allow limited immigration with proper vetting. It is the lack of the latter why Europe is in the state it is currently in. I don't have a problem with multiculturalism, but diversity for the sake of diversity is a terrible idea, especially when the ideology of these "refugees" are not compatible with western values, at all. If you want to let them in, then you need to assimilate them, not integrate them.

Your argument is a sane and rational one. I respect that you are fine with diversity and only criticize it when it has negative effects and when it's implemented for the sake of it (which is very often, and actually is the official doctrine of the state of Sweden - multiculturalism for the sake of it).

What I hate is that all these native cultures around the world, Westerners care a lot about preservation of foreign cultures and argue how it has intrinsic value, how they see the charm and beauty and value of them. They care that they're preserved and being kept untainted by Western culture. But argue the same about Western culture and hell breaks lose. First, many will deny that such a culture even exists (Sweden the mainline is to question whether Swedish culture or Swedes even exists). Second, you're labeled as the worst kind of racist if you suggest separation and preservation of white culture. I'm outraged by this hypocricy.

I personally love homogeneous cultures and nations. I think it's beautiful and good in every way. I dislike multicultural societies for many reasons, although some sides are charming and/or beneficial about those too. I have the right to feel this without being attacked or labeled with nasty words.

When I go to Greece I want it to feel Greek with the majority being ethnical Greeks, when I go to Japan, I want it to feel Japanese etc. When I go to Germany I want it to fe... well, I wouldn't go to Germany because to me it doesn't feel like Germany any longer. Same with my own country, it doesn't feel like it used to be so I don't want to be here anymore.





barneystinson69 said:
Zkuq said:

I don't know why you're asking since you almost answered your own question: it's the sudden and great numbers. It takes time to integrate and until they do, they have a higher risk of causing problems.

Integration is something people have to be willing to do. If you don't want to, it'll never happen. Show me a statistic to prove that these migrants are integrating into society well...

I don't have any (and I'm not saying there are or aren't, but I don't care enough about debating this to look for any), but I don't think we've had very many issues with immigrants before the current wave. At least you almost never hear about them, and I've personally never witnessed any. I don't see any reason why the new ones should be any different.



Zkuq said:
barneystinson69 said:
Zkuq said:

I don't know why you're asking since you almost answered your own question: it's the sudden and great numbers. It takes time to integrate and until they do, they have a higher risk of causing problems.

Integration is something people have to be willing to do. If you don't want to, it'll never happen. Show me a statistic to prove that these migrants are integrating into society well...

I don't have any (and I'm not saying there are or aren't, but I don't care enough about debating this to look for any), but I don't think we've had very many issues with immigrants before the current wave. At least you almost never hear about them, and I've personally never witnessed any. I don't see any reason why the new ones should be any different.

About 10 years ago there was a wave of rapes commited by Somalis in Helsinki. It was an absolute disgrace. Here you have Finns, supposedly the most prone to violence of all people in Europe according to some statistics, and yet a few thousand Somalis are able to make their capital unsafe.
Now luckily determined work by the excellent Finnish police stopped this wave after a couple of years and arrested most of the perpetrators. You must have heard at least something about this? It was big in Finnish media.

Sadly, immigrant youth rule the streets of Helsinki today as well. Robberies, beatings and rape.
http://www.iltalehti.fi/uutiset/2015031319350781_uu.shtml

That's an article from 2015 (But it's Iltalehti! Yes, but at least somebody tells the truth. In Sweden we don't have that luxury any longer). Regarding rape, numbers show that immigrants from the Middle-east and Africa are overrepresented by a factor of x12 compared to native Finns, even when adjusted for age, sex, income and place of residence! That's simply mindblowing. And the numbers are similar in all countries that have this tolerant, lenient attitude towards immigrants, such as Sweden, Finland, Norway, Denmark, Germany, Austria, Switzerland, UK and The Netherlands.

And yet people are so afraid to generalize and refuse to accept that this has anything to do with culture. But they do accept to generalize when the claims are alienation, poverty, racism and discrimination as causes for crime, then all of a sudden it's perfectly okay to generalize! Funny. Such hypocrisy.

It's a disgrace. Even when they're a tiny minority, only a few % of the population of Finland, they are able to dominate. How on earth is that possible? Because the natives are so weak and defenseless, taught to be self-critical, afraid of being accused of racism, and lack support from media and authorities.



Around the Network
Slimebeast said:
Zkuq said:
barneystinson69 said:
Zkuq said:

I don't know why you're asking since you almost answered your own question: it's the sudden and great numbers. It takes time to integrate and until they do, they have a higher risk of causing problems.

Integration is something people have to be willing to do. If you don't want to, it'll never happen. Show me a statistic to prove that these migrants are integrating into society well...

I don't have any (and I'm not saying there are or aren't, but I don't care enough about debating this to look for any), but I don't think we've had very many issues with immigrants before the current wave. At least you almost never hear about them, and I've personally never witnessed any. I don't see any reason why the new ones should be any different.

1. About 10 years ago there was a wave of rapes commited by Somalis in Helsinki. It was an absolute disgrace. Here you have Finns, supposedly the most prone to violence of all people in Europe according to some statistics, and yet a few thousand Somalis are able to make their capital unsafe.
Now luckily determined work by the excellent Finnish police stopped this wave after a couple of years and arrested most of the perpetrators. You must have heard at least something about this? It was big in Finnish media.

2. Sadly, immigrant youth rule the streets of Helsinki today as well. Robberies, beatings and rape.
http://www.iltalehti.fi/uutiset/2015031319350781_uu.shtml

That's an article from 2015 (But it's Iltalehti! Yes, but at least somebody tells the truth. In Sweden we don't have that luxury any longer). Regarding rape, numbers show that immigrants from the Middle-east and Africa are overrepresented by a factor of x12 compared to native Finns, even when adjusted for age, sex, income and place of residence! That's simply mindblowing. And the numbers are similar in all countries that have this tolerant, lenient attitude towards immigrants, such as Sweden, Finland, Norway, Denmark, Germany, Austria, Switzerland, UK and The Netherlands.

And yet people are so afraid to generalize and refuse to accept that this has anything to do with culture. But they do accept to generalize when the claims are alienation, poverty, racism and discrimination as causes for crime, then all of a sudden it's perfectly okay to generalize! Funny. Such hypocrisy.

It's a disgrace. Even when they're a tiny minority, only a few % of the population of Finland, they are able to dominate. How on earth is that possible? Because the natives are so weak and defenseless, taught to be self-critical, afraid of being accused of racism, and lack support from media and authorities.

1. Yup, I missed it. A wave is not everyday trouble though. I'd like to know why it occurred because I assume there's a reason for that... But whatever. Seems like there was trouble anyway, I don't see why you'd be lying.

2. Like I said, integration takes time. This is a painful example of what can happen before integration when a huge number of people arrive from a vastly different culture. If the numbers of refugees were smaller, there would be less problems and they wouldn't get reported very much.

I'm not saying foreigners don't cause more problems. I'm sure they do, especially at first, but I don't think it's a significant problem after they integrate a bit into the society. Heck, for all I care, there's isn't too much to worry about even with the current situation. In large scale, it's nothing if it can be stopped. If it continues, only then it becomes a real problem. Just for the record, I think the same about terrorism. It gets a ton of attention and reactions, when in the western world it has a fraction of the victims in some regular accidents, and has little impact aside from the attention and reactions. I'd like to see the same reactions to, say, car accidents. Anyway, I find these integration problems comparable in scale (and by comparable I don't necessarily mean equal). Personally I'm more worried about the costs than the unrest and problems.



ReimTime said:

To summarize, we certainly have the space to take in refugees, and I believe it is our duty to do so. Many westerners are not happy about it, as the recent oil crisis has caused unemployment and resentment as the unemployed believe they should receive the economic relief: "why bring in more mouths to feed when our own are in need of help?" Combine this with the election of a left-wing premier in Alberta (and a left-wing Prime Minister), and a lot of fingers are being pointed. All the remaining provinces will surely do their best to accommodate refugees, as long as they are not rushed over here there should not be too much trouble. We have a pretty secure dual-screening process that should be able to filter out any troublemakers.

Most of the refugees and immigrants coming to Canada go to Toronto and Montreal and its been like that for many years. Toronto and much of southern Ontario is already densely populated enough. Other parts of Canada like Alberta might be empty but not many refugees are going there.



    

NNID: FrequentFlyer54

When dealing with *human beings* first and foremost I think a civil society needs to show compassion, these are people, not cattle and we as a species owe to ourselves to be better than we have been in situations like World War II. If we are to have any future as a race (and like it or not we are one species) we need to learn to live next to each other. 

Having said that, I don't think an "open door policy" is the answer either.

There's needs to be a sensible, logical middle ground here between xenophobic, racist assholes and just letting anyone and everyone come in with huge numbers with no thought given to issues of integration.

Canada seems to manage things better, maybe Europe can learn from them.



Just wondering, but why hasn't anyone mentioned the destabilization of the Middle East?

You know we wouldn't be here if it weren't for their shitty president. I wish I can kill the bastard himself. That one man caused all of this.



 

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

12/22/2016- Made a bet with Ganoncrotch that the first 6 months of 2017 will be worse than 2016. A poll will be made to determine the winner. Loser has to take a picture of them imitating their profile picture.

Zkuq said:
Slimebeast said:
Zkuq said:
barneystinson69 said:
Zkuq said:

I don't know why you're asking since you almost answered your own question: it's the sudden and great numbers. It takes time to integrate and until they do, they have a higher risk of causing problems.

Integration is something people have to be willing to do. If you don't want to, it'll never happen. Show me a statistic to prove that these migrants are integrating into society well...

I don't have any (and I'm not saying there are or aren't, but I don't care enough about debating this to look for any), but I don't think we've had very many issues with immigrants before the current wave. At least you almost never hear about them, and I've personally never witnessed any. I don't see any reason why the new ones should be any different.

1. About 10 years ago there was a wave of rapes commited by Somalis in Helsinki. It was an absolute disgrace. Here you have Finns, supposedly the most prone to violence of all people in Europe according to some statistics, and yet a few thousand Somalis are able to make their capital unsafe.
Now luckily determined work by the excellent Finnish police stopped this wave after a couple of years and arrested most of the perpetrators. You must have heard at least something about this? It was big in Finnish media.

2. Sadly, immigrant youth rule the streets of Helsinki today as well. Robberies, beatings and rape.
http://www.iltalehti.fi/uutiset/2015031319350781_uu.shtml

That's an article from 2015 (But it's Iltalehti! Yes, but at least somebody tells the truth. In Sweden we don't have that luxury any longer). Regarding rape, numbers show that immigrants from the Middle-east and Africa are overrepresented by a factor of x12 compared to native Finns, even when adjusted for age, sex, income and place of residence! That's simply mindblowing. And the numbers are similar in all countries that have this tolerant, lenient attitude towards immigrants, such as Sweden, Finland, Norway, Denmark, Germany, Austria, Switzerland, UK and The Netherlands.

And yet people are so afraid to generalize and refuse to accept that this has anything to do with culture. But they do accept to generalize when the claims are alienation, poverty, racism and discrimination as causes for crime, then all of a sudden it's perfectly okay to generalize! Funny. Such hypocrisy.

It's a disgrace. Even when they're a tiny minority, only a few % of the population of Finland, they are able to dominate. How on earth is that possible? Because the natives are so weak and defenseless, taught to be self-critical, afraid of being accused of racism, and lack support from media and authorities.

1. Yup, I missed it. A wave is not everyday trouble though. I'd like to know why it occurred because I assume there's a reason for that... But whatever. Seems like there was trouble anyway, I don't see why you'd be lying.

2. Like I said, integration takes time. This is a painful example of what can happen before integration when a huge number of people arrive from a vastly different culture. If the numbers of refugees were smaller, there would be less problems and they wouldn't get reported very much.

I'm not saying foreigners don't cause more problems. I'm sure they do, especially at first, but I don't think it's a significant problem after they integrate a bit into the society. Heck, for all I care, there's isn't too much to worry about even with the current situation. In large scale, it's nothing if it can be stopped. If it continues, only then it becomes a real problem. Just for the record, I think the same about terrorism. It gets a ton of attention and reactions, when in the western world it has a fraction of the victims in some regular accidents, and has little impact aside from the attention and reactions. I'd like to see the same reactions to, say, car accidents. Anyway, I find these integration problems comparable in scale (and by comparable I don't necessarily mean equal). Personally I'm more worried about the costs than the unrest and problems.

Typical liberal response.

And talking against facts.