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Forums - Politics Discussion - How Will the Terrorist Attacks in Paris Impact the Refugee Crisis?

Barozi said:
outlawauron said:
Teeqoz said:
outlawauron said:

Please point me to the extreme right rising, because I haven't seen a single bit of evidence of that outside of small irrelevant political parties that hold no power.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pegida

It started in Germany, and has gotten sub-organisations across Europe. (This is the most recently). But over the last decade, yes, saying extreme right has been rising is exagerrating, but overall, the political landscape (and not just petty organisations) have gotten more and more right-turned, and in some cases those right-wing parties have some pretty extreme opinions, especially when it comes to immigration.

But I think the likes of Pegida, and its sympathisers are only contributing to legitimize the picture various Islamic terror organisations are trying to paint in their propaganda, and thus are helping them recruit more people, which is certainly a bad thing.

All that article tells me is that a few thousand pissed off Germans protested against immigration (with the largest group at 25k, shortly after the Hebdo incident which is understandable). It's pretty obvious that areas most negatively affected by the refugees are going to have movement sprout up against them. 

I would say that more right winged politics will gain popularity out of the refugee crisis, as the current left dominated landscape has set the current table.

Except it's the exact opposite. Eastern Germany has the lowest ratio of foreigners with only 2-3% and only a fraction of that come from countries where Islam is the main religion. The vast majority comes from Eastern Europe and East Asian states.

Pegida is just a group of ignorant and stupid people who have never seen a Muslim in their lifes and just hate them because they are different.
Basically the rednecks of Germany.

How many muslims or foreigners doesn't really matter. Germany's government has taken a strong stance on refugees, so it's only natural that German who oppose it would band together.

As far as Pegida in other places, I don't know. I'm ignorant of fringe groups and movements in Europe.



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tokilamockingbrd said:
as stupid as Mike Hukabee's analogy is it kinda makes sense.

He said "Would buy a 5 pound bag of peanuts that you knew had just 10 deadly poisonous peanuts in it and then feed it to you kids"

99.9 % of the refugees are good people in desperate need of help. that .01% can go on a shooting rampage in you hometown.


I would counter that in this analogy that .01% of all food is deadly poisonous, and that someone is targeting peanuts.

What percentage of native people commit crime? What percentage of immigrants and/or refugees?  



Machina said:
KungKras said:

Really? This is coming from an admin?

Take it from someone who is living in Sweden, there are 0! no-go zones. That's a lie that fox news made up. There are about 500 000 people of muslim background in Sweden. Out of those about 15% are considered religious, and of those, about 25 000 are devout enough to even pray 5 times a day. The farther you go down the generations, the more secular. Statistics usually take the drama away from the whole "they are radicals and taking over" narrative.

We are not a rape capital either. The reason more rapes are reported is because there has historically been tremendous efforts to get rape victims to report the crimes. There is less stigma on rape victims and the legal definition is much broader. If you account for those things, stats are in line with most other countries.

Trust me. The muslims coming here are a much greater threat to islam than they are to secular society. There is a culture clash. We're winning it. Just like we won against christianity.


Why do people always say this whenever I make a political or religious point they disagree with. My job on the site has nothing to do with politics or religion. My status as an Admin is utterly irrelevant.


You'd feel comfortable going into the heart of a non-Muslim no-go area in Sweden? What about filming in one, because even this fairly
benign video from someone who appears to be on your side of the spectrum says otherwise. I certainly wouldn't feel safe entering a Muslim area of the UK like Tower Hamlets. If I was a woman I'd feel even less safe about doing so.

You have a similar problem to us and you seem to perfectly illustrate it - a political class and set of organisations that simply will not acknowledge that there's even a problem for fear of being accused of being racist. But it's not a race, it's religion, and one with very violent teachings and some particularly abhorrent cultural beliefs, even amongst 'moderates'(1)(2)(3).

It's why over 1,400 children, CHILDREN, were allowed to be raped by predominantly Muslim gangs over a period of several years in just one town in the UK. The authorities turned a blind eye and allowed it to happen - and those are the kids we know about. It's not(1) an(2) isolated case(3), there are several examples in the past year from different towns and cities. You'll notice the euphemism 'Asian' is used for Muslim in most of those articles, which only furthers the confusion between race and religion that helps perpetuate the problem (and which I would find deeply offensive if I were Asian). It's such a damn controversial issue, but I shouldn't be - the protection of children and women from sexual abuse must be allowed to trump religious sensibilities.

But no. No problem whatsoever. Nothing to see here guys. Religion of peace and rainbows, etc.

@ bolded

That indicates more of a problem with you than anything else. My wife works in Tower Hamlets and see's the worst aspects of the borough (including the cultural clashing aspects), but what you're saying is just wrong and really cowardly. You're scared to go into Tower Hamlets? You make it sound like a warzone when it's just another London borough with a mixture of good and bad aspects. Some shitty cultural beliefs like forced marriage, sure, but there are plenty of other issues with the area as well. But have you ever actually been to Tower Hamlets? It has one of my favorite steak restaurants (not halal btw) and some half decent cocktail bars. Hardly what you expect in a non-Muslim "no-go" area (both me and my wife are atheist and we do like a drink!).

Your comment reminds me of BNP propaganda when they filmed vids showing Wembley and a bunch of Asians doing nothing but going about their day-to-day lives and claiming it was a warzone. It's both ignorant and cowardly.

As for the children, it's becoming clear the UK authorities have turned a blind eye to a lot of child rape cases in the past. Just look at the Jimmy Savile case or the Catholic priests... or were they Muslim too? Plus, it's not just Muslims. A quick look on Google will indicate a lot of rape cases in India, a predominantly Hindu country. The issue is cultural rather than religious. Religion is simply an excuse people can use.



I'm all for giving them food, medicine, and supplies, but there as to be somewhere in the middle east they can be safe without flying them halfway around the world to the US or other European countries. We don't do enough for the poor in our country, to suddenly feed, educate, house, and provide medical attention to another 200,000 people. Never mind the costs involved.

Don't tell me there isn't somewhere outside Syria that can take them in for awhile, other countries would send humanitarian aid, but it only took 8 guys to slaughter 100 plus people, imagine if even 1/10 of 1% of those 200,000 are terrorists that's...never was good at math but a bunch :)



KungKras said:
Machina said:
 


Why do people always say this whenever I make a political or religious point they disagree with. My job on the site has nothing to do with politics or religion. My status as an Admin is utterly irrelevant.

You sound just as bad as Fox, but on the opposite end of the spectrum, so no I don't trust you. A quick google search shows immigrants account for 61% of reported rapes in Sweden, with those from the Middle East and Africa being 20 times more likely to commit rape than those born in Sweden, and those are the stats they're willing to publish.
Here's a good rebuttal of the 'it's all because of better reporting' argument.


One of the worst cases occurred in 2012, when a 30-year old woman was raped by eight men in a housing project for asylum seekers, in the small town of Mariannelund. The woman was an acquaintance of a man from Afghanistan who had lived in Sweden for a number of years. He invited her to go out with him. She obliged. The Afghan man took her to a refugee housing project and left her defenseless. During the night, she was raped repeatedly by the asylum seekers and when her "friend" returned, he raped her too. The following morning she managed to call the police. Sweden's public prosecutor has called the incident "the worst crime of rape in Swedish criminal history."

In cases of gang rape, culprits and victims are most often young and in almost every case, the perpetrators are of immigrant background, mostly from Muslim countries. In an astounding number of cases, the Swedish courts have demonstrated sympathy for the rapists. Several times the courts have acquitted suspects who have claimed that the girl wanted sex with six, seven or eight men.


You'd feel comfortable going into the heart of a non-Muslim no-go area in Sweden? What about filming in one, because even this fairly
benign video from someone who appears to be on your side of the spectrum says otherwise. I certainly wouldn't feel safe entering a Muslim area of the UK like Tower Hamlets. If I was a woman I'd feel even less safe about doing so.

You have a similar problem to us and you seem to perfectly illustrate it - a political class and set of organisations that simply will not acknowledge that there's even a problem for fear of being accused of being racist. But it's not a race, it's religion, and one with very violent teachings and some particularly abhorrent cultural beliefs, even amongst 'moderates'(1)(2)(3).

It's why over 1,400 children, CHILDREN, were allowed to be raped by predominantly Muslim gangs over a period of several years in just one town in the UK. The authorities turned a blind eye and allowed it to happen - and those are the kids we know about. It's not(1) an(2) isolated case(3), there are several examples in the past year from different towns and cities. You'll notice the euphemism 'Asian' is used for Muslim in most of those articles, which only furthers the confusion between race and religion that helps perpetuate the problem (and which I would find deeply offensive if I were Asian). It's such a damn controversial issue, but I shouldn't be - the protection of children and women from sexual abuse must be allowed to trump religious sensibilities.

But no. No problem whatsoever. Nothing to see here guys. Religion of peace and rainbows, etc.

I live in Gothenburg. Although not as immigrant-heavy as Malmö, there are areas with large muslim populations like Hisingen and I've went there to visit friends lots of times. Most of the violence comes from the criminal gangs, and they usually kill members from rival gangs. Sure I wouldn't walk the streets of Hisingen at night if I could avoid it but I've been there. A friend of mine was prevented from driving through at night because armoured police were doing an operation, so stuff does happen over there.

I wouldn't trust anything coming from sweden confidential (nowadays called Exponerat). You live in the UK so I'll grant you that you probably. don't know which sites are infamous in sweden but that site is particularly bad. It, along with "avpixlat" and some other sites are known neo nazi propaganda sites. They're always spewing out Anders Breivik level stuff.

https://www.bra.se/download/18.cba82f7130f475a2f1800012697/2005_17_brottslighet_bland_personer_fodda_sverige_och_utlandet.pdf
This is from BRÅ. An actual government organization that does these statistics. It has an english summary at the end. Its conclusion is that being an immigrant increases the chances of committing a crime by about 2.5. Among those crimes, violent crimes like rape are overepresented but it's nothing like the numbers you get from hate sites like avpixlat or exponerat.

Again, there is a problem with culture clashes when it comes to integration, but how are we supposed to judge people? We became tolerant toward homosexuality only about a decade ago yet now people point their finger at muslims for holding views similar to what was once mainstream in Europe. Their countries havent's had the same developments so they're obviosly gonna bring some horrific views with them. But most adapt to us, and not the other way around. Numbers back this. Islam is not the only religion with horrific holy verses. The bible is soaked in blood. The difference is that we're ahead of the curve when it comes to leaving that stuff behind. Not all muslims are the same, just like all with the christians.

The point I'm trying to get to is this. Should we at all let in people fleeing for their lives from war zones?  And should we discriminate when it comes to religions? I answer those with a no, because I think we can afford compassion. Then when we have these people here should we act like they are all criminals and push them out or should we try to integrate them? I think we should, and can integrate them. Because I believe in the power of our secular ideals, and I believe in humanity.


Your belief in hmanity doesn't help those that died in Paris and their family. And you yourself say that migrants are more likely to commit crimes. Any way, it's your country, up to you to fuck it up.



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Now where will the Parisian refugees go? France is becoming a war torn country at this rate and the French will soon need to flee. Hopefully their neighbours have some spare room.



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Lawlight said:


Your belief in hmanity doesn't help those that died in Paris and their family. And you yourself say that migrants are more likely to commit crimes. Any way, it's your country, up to you to fuck it up.

Thing is that this is not new. BRÅ stats from the eighties are almost the same. Before when the majority of immigrants were muslims.

You're right it doesn't help the victims of Paris, but it sure as hell helps the people who are fleeing one of the worst civil wars in the modern era.

What do you think would help the paris victims? Shutting down all borders? Bombing civilians?



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KungKras said:
Lawlight said:
 


Your belief in hmanity doesn't help those that died in Paris and their family. And you yourself say that migrants are more likely to commit crimes. Any way, it's your country, up to you to fuck it up.

Thing is that this is not new. BRÅ stats from the eighties are almost the same. Before when the majority of immigrants were muslims.

You're right it doesn't help the victims of Paris, but it sure as hell helps the people who are fleeing one of the worst civil wars in the modern era.

What do you think would help the paris victims? Shutting down all borders? Bombing civilians?

Shutting down borders to people who cannot be screened. Immigration is fine as long as it's for skilled people and in controlled numbers. Taking in hundreds of thousands of people who cannot be properly vetted is just insane. Not only that, they're part of a religion that cannot properly integrate with the western culture.

Also, let the middle east fight their own wars.



I think I see where you're coming from Machina. If you want to look at the issue from a new atheist point of view and aggressively attack and expose horrific religious doctrines for what they are, I can get behind that. I'm not in the camp of "all religions are sunshine and rainbows"

I've just seen people make the leap into thinking that people who nominally belong to a certian religion are 100% irredeemable that I've gotten tired of it.

The people who are best equiped to win the battle of ideas against Islam aren't you or me, but ex-muslims. That's why I'm dead serious when I say that muslims coming here are a greater threat to islam than to secular society. Nothing makes people leave a strict religion faster than growing up in a society where good ideas are free to beat out bad ones. And even though there is a big influx today of deeply religious people due to the current geo-political situation, we can see that the decendants of older immigrants become more secular the farther down in generations that you go. It takes time but it happens. That is my main point.

Lawlight. Christianity is also incompatible with western values. If it wasn't we would still have pagans around. Make of that what you will.



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Refugee crisis will, unfortunately, be affected in the most natural way - radicals & nationalists in France and elsewhere in Europe will use the incident to strengthen their positions and drive even greater number of refugees back.

Nothing new, unexpected or unusual.



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