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Forums - Gaming Discussion - PC Gamers: Second Class Citizens??

Scisca on 29 April 2015
Tachikoma said:
Tachikoma said:

The "elephant in the room" is talk of piracy, since piracy-talk is usually avoided.

Cannot make it any simpler to you.


Piracy on PC is a constant, piracy on consoles is a variable. You say that lack of piracy on current consoles is an important factor. I say that it's not, because previous consoles were cracked, current are not and despite this change... there is no change. So the fact that there is no piracy on current gen means nothing. Cannot make it any simpler to you. The fact that now you can't play pirated games on consoles resulted in no change.

But if you just came here to state the fact that "there is piracy on PC" and leave it at that, then sorry, I though you were trying to put some meat on it instead of stating the obvious "the sky is blue". Especially since you juxtaposed it with something that is currently new to the industry and is somewhat of a change.

Tachikoma said:
Scisca said:

I understand the costs are growing. Cool. I know that. But the bottom line is - has this influenced the situation of PC gamers? Has the release of secure consoles dealt a blow to the PC market? Was this a sudden gamechanger? The answer is NO. 

When a developer choses to "test the waters" with their title on console first, prior to bringing it to PC, for whatever reason, that directly impacts pc-only gamers.
When a developer or publisher discusses the simultanious release of a game on both PC and Console, a long discussion is had over the releasing timing, and the pros and cons of staggerng the release, since the availability of a PC version has the potential to impact console sales, if a gamer is faced with the option of paying $60 for a console game, or $30-40 for the PC version, or lastly, paying nothing and torrenting it, a large number will opt for the latter, each and every major publisher does research into piracy, both console and pc, either themselves or through contracted third parties, and the results of that research and can often does directly effect release timelines, planning and major directional tasks such as choosing to develop a pc version in-house of contracting third parties to handle the porting work.

Again, even when consoles last generation were ALL comprimised and piracy was possible on the Wii, 360 and PS3, the ratio of pirate versus paying player was significantly lower than that of the pirate versus paying player for PC, outlandishly so.

The issue of piracy on the PC is one of the major contributing factors to the reason WHY PC games are generally priced lower than their console counterparts, so trying to argue that piracy on pc and the lower piracy, or lack or piracy on consoles does not play a major role in developers and publishers choices for preferential treatment is just flat out broken logic.

The very fact that development teams and publishers hold meetings to conduct risk assesment for PC versions alone directly underlines the fact that piracy and the existance of a more secure console ecosystem does, definitely play a deciding role in how PC-only gamers are accomodated.

And really, if you'd STILL like to tell me otherwise, shoot me a PM because discussing this here is getting extremely boring.
And if possible, go sit in on an actual risk assetment meeting from a major publisher before doing so.

To be clear on that, don't expect further replies from me on the topic, i've far better things to do with my time.


"When", "if", "should", "may", "maybe", "what if". That's worthless as an argument, you are aware of that? Please be specific, list some exact imporant games that PC gamers are going to miss or you can spare descriptions of board meetings that all in all result in PCs getting the games. As a gamer I don't give jack if piracy causes devs to shed tears in their beds, as long as we get the games (I feel sorry as a human being obviously ). The fact and bottom line is - we are getting the games. There is no exodus. PC gets multiplats, PC gets great exclusives. Moreover, PC versions are far and away the supreme ones, so devs are putting the extra effort into the PC versions. So really, nice stories, but again - this has no weight in the face of the stone cold facts. I get it that you're emotionally involved, but to gamers it means nothing if devs lose sleep on piracy - I get games just like console gamers do, so I'm not influenced the slightest. I don't need to see how a sausage is being made... If games suddenly start skipping PC, like they had sometimes in previous gen, if PC wasn't getting DLCs, etc. then you'd be onto something.

Again, I know there is piracy on PC. There was piracy on previous gen consoles. There is no piracy on current gen. Piracy on PC is greater than on prev gen. These things are obvious, aren't debatable and thus aren't really worth talking about. What's worth talking about are the consequences. The OP tries to imply there has recently been a change for the worse for PC gamers. You said that piracy vs no piracy currently is an important factor here. I disagree with both statements. PC piracy is a constant, devs are well accustomed to it and this alone can't have caused a change in the market. In fact I personally believe PC is experiencing a rebirth and will be more important than previous gen.

BTW. All these cries about piracy and PC market not being viable make the indie scene, Gabe and guys at Blizzard laugh their butts off...



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fps_d0minat0r on 29 April 2015
Uabit said:

They get most AAA games at the same time PS4 and X1 do but for a much cheaper price, and then they get the chance to play it with better framerate/resolution.

I don't see why they are second class only for a few delayed games like gta v (and even that game has the best version available on PC as of now) and some shitty ports that end up being fixed by the community itself and in the end again pc gets the best version of the game.

I also like that you bring up the payment mods subject, they tried to abuse the community and the community sent a clear "don't fuck with us" message, meanwhile console community's been paying for online gaming since X360 came out.


The dont fuck with us message is why consoles are increasingly becoming more relevant than PC gaming.

What you describe as 'dont fuck with us' message is seen by businesses as a 'we dont really want to fund anything, and expect you to make stuff for us for free' message.



Tachikoma on 29 April 2015
fps_d0minat0r said:


The dont fuck with us message is why consoles are increasingly becoming more relevant than PC gaming.

What you describe as 'dont fuck with us' message is seen by businesses as a 'we dont really want to fund anything, and expect you to make stuff for us for free' message.

The recent furore over valve is of little consequence, since valve is seen more as a platform holder now than a games developer.

While it was attached to the games developers too, most of the peoples issues were solely directed at steam/valve and/or gabe.



Shinobi-san on 29 April 2015
Scisca said:


Piracy on PC is a constant, piracy on consoles is a variable. You say that lack of piracy on current consoles is an important factor. I say that it's not, because previous consoles were cracked, current are not and despite this change... there is no change. So the fact that there is no piracy on current gen means nothing. Cannot make it any simpler to you. The fact that now you can't play pirated games on consoles resulted in no change.

But if you just came here to state the fact that "there is piracy on PC" and leave it at that, then sorry, I though you were trying to put some meat on it instead of stating the obvious "the sky is blue". Especially since you juxtaposed it with something that is currently new to the industry and is somewhat of a change.

Tachikoma said:
Scisca said:

I understand the costs are growing. Cool. I know that. But the bottom line is - has this influenced the situation of PC gamers? Has the release of secure consoles dealt a blow to the PC market? Was this a sudden gamechanger? The answer is NO. 

When a developer choses to "test the waters" with their title on console first, prior to bringing it to PC, for whatever reason, that directly impacts pc-only gamers.
When a developer or publisher discusses the simultanious release of a game on both PC and Console, a long discussion is had over the releasing timing, and the pros and cons of staggerng the release, since the availability of a PC version has the potential to impact console sales, if a gamer is faced with the option of paying $60 for a console game, or $30-40 for the PC version, or lastly, paying nothing and torrenting it, a large number will opt for the latter, each and every major publisher does research into piracy, both console and pc, either themselves or through contracted third parties, and the results of that research and can often does directly effect release timelines, planning and major directional tasks such as choosing to develop a pc version in-house of contracting third parties to handle the porting work.

Again, even when consoles last generation were ALL comprimised and piracy was possible on the Wii, 360 and PS3, the ratio of pirate versus paying player was significantly lower than that of the pirate versus paying player for PC, outlandishly so.

The issue of piracy on the PC is one of the major contributing factors to the reason WHY PC games are generally priced lower than their console counterparts, so trying to argue that piracy on pc and the lower piracy, or lack or piracy on consoles does not play a major role in developers and publishers choices for preferential treatment is just flat out broken logic.

The very fact that development teams and publishers hold meetings to conduct risk assesment for PC versions alone directly underlines the fact that piracy and the existance of a more secure console ecosystem does, definitely play a deciding role in how PC-only gamers are accomodated.

And really, if you'd STILL like to tell me otherwise, shoot me a PM because discussing this here is getting extremely boring.
And if possible, go sit in on an actual risk assetment meeting from a major publisher before doing so.

To be clear on that, don't expect further replies from me on the topic, i've far better things to do with my time.


"When", "if", "should", "may", "maybe", "what if". That's worthless as an argument, you are aware of that? Please be specific, list some exact imporant games that PC gamers are going to miss or you can spare descriptions of board meetings that all in all result in PCs getting the games. As a gamer I don't give jack if piracy causes devs to shed tears in their beds, as long as we get the games (I feel sorry as a human being obviously ). The fact and bottom line is - we are getting the games. There is no exodus. PC gets multiplats, PC gets great exclusives. Moreover, PC versions are far and away the supreme ones, so devs are putting the extra effort into the PC versions. So really, nice stories, but again - this has no weight in the face of the stone cold facts. I get it that you're emotionally involved, but to gamers it means nothing if devs lose sleep on piracy - I get games just like console gamers do, so I'm not influenced the slightest. I don't need to see how a sausage is being made... If games suddenly start skipping PC, like they had sometimes in previous gen, if PC wasn't getting DLCs, etc. then you'd be onto something.

Again, I know there is piracy on PC. There was piracy on previous gen consoles. There is no piracy on current gen. Piracy on PC is greater than on prev gen. These things are obvious, aren't debatable and thus aren't really worth talking about. What's worth talking about are the consequences. The OP tries to imply there has recently been a change for the worse for PC gamers. You said that piracy vs no piracy currently is an important factor here. I disagree with both statements. PC piracy is a constant, devs are well accustomed to it and this alone can't have caused a change in the market. In fact I personally believe PC is experiencing a rebirth and will be more important than previous gen.

BTW. All these cries about piracy and PC market not being viable make the indie scene, Gabe and guys at Blizzard laugh their butts off...


I dont think they laugh their butts off...they've come up with plans and means to avoid piracy from killing them.

Almost all of Blizzards recent games require an internet connection to enjoy properly. If piracy wasnt a concern then diablo 3 would not have needed online. Hearthstone and Heroes of the Storm would have had a local version, but they dont. This is all to combat piracy and have some sort of reliance on the server.

Valve is the same, valve has built an entire platform to combat this and have prices that make it a viable alternative to those that dont want to pirate. Not to mention, all of Valves games require and internet connection and are focused on multiplayer. Dota 2 similarly doesnt have a local version to the dismay of original dota players.

Piracy on PC is huge and i think it does play a role when publishers decide to port late or not port at all etc.  It also plays a role in actual game design as we see with games like DOTA 2 an Diablo 3.



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Ganoncrotch on 29 April 2015
Scisca said:


Nicely picked dates, but we all know that analysing such a long timeframe is pointless in such a young industry. How about this.

. Now your turn

Young industry in 1997?

Your opinions on the matter are pretty clear and not going to change, asking for facts or people to take turns wasting time when you dismiss facts in place of the dream that Blizzard HQ and Gabe are laughing making so much profits from PC gaming and everyone else who makes AAA games on the PC are somehow a part of those 2 things.

@bold I see no point to. Thanks tho!



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HollyGamer on 29 April 2015

it's a first class citizens especially for pirates , seriously. and also it's first class for steam but it will not beat console because PC has many variation and made by many configurations and spec, so only few and small community that support it . Console in the other hand supported because it's a single physically dedicated platform and back by one company so it bound to be first class.



kitler53 on 29 April 2015

i've always thought of PC gamers as second class citizens.

pc is mostly for college age kids too poor to buy anything but ramen, beer, and a computer to pirate games for. as you grow up you grow out of pc gaming and either be like me and move to consoles or quit gaming entirely. pc gaming is just a phase kids go though.

User moderated for this post -RavenXtra



StarOcean on 29 April 2015

Yes they are treated like 2nd class citizens, and it sucks v.v same with us handheld gamers! Half the goddamn games dont even make it here if you have a 3DS/Vita in the west (Vita is a little better about it)
Consoles always get priority though, yes



cfin2987@gmail.com on 29 April 2015

I want to find that Meme of Jackie Chan asking why, but I don't even want to make the effort. Only with so called triple AAA games which of late have mostly been terrible. The only good, non exclusive ones are also coming to PC.



Barozi on 29 April 2015

PC generates lots of money with indies, MMOs, F2P and social games.
For everything else the PC is (for economical reasons only) obviously an afterthought as it generates much less money and thus isn't really competitive, especially when we're talking about games like GTA, Assassin's Creed, FIFA and Call of Duty.