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I'm always baffled by the low standards some people have when it comes to calling other people "friends".



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RubberWhistleHistle said:
atheism and morality.. hmm.

let me put it to you this way:

atheist don't believe in anything supernatural, right? so that means nothing outside of space matter and time. the only things that exist are things that are confined to these parameters. therefore, that would truly mean that we humans are made up of matter and nothing more than that. if we are just atoms and molecules, isn't it fair to say that all our actions are governed by the laws of chemistry, thermodynamics, physics and so on and so forth? in this kind of view, there really is no room for free choice. your actions and thoughts are controlled by things that are out of your control. if this is the case, then how can somebody who is an atheist say that person x should have done this certain thing, or should not have done this certain thing. trying to make somebody accountable for their actions would be like trying to make water going a waterfall accountable. its like saying, this waterfall shouldnt be behaving in this way.

so in a worldview where people are just simply matter, there doesn't seem to be any room for free choice. if there is nothing that transcends the molecules that we are made of, then we are governed by it. free choice and accountability have to come from the idea that we contain something outside of space matter and time (a soul) that is not governed by molecules and atoms and transcends it, but still interacts with it.

i hope that clears up why christians would say that you can't really have a morality if youre an atheist. while i dont completely agree with this, i do believe that if youre an atheist, you really cant believe in free will (it doesnt jive with the world view). and if you dont believe in free will.. you cant hold people accountable for their actions. (for instance, having a natural proclivity to rape or murder, you can't blame somebody for carrying out these actions unless you believe they are free to choose one way or another)

i hope i communicated all that properly.


Without getting into too much detail:

Even within the confines of physical sciences, there is wiggle room. According to concepts such as chaos theory, the future is not predetermined even when only considering physical laws. When taken to their logical conclusions, these principles basically mean that something as seemingly minor as some neural activity is both undetermined and potentially highly influential on surrounding conditions.

On the other hand, if God is omnipotent and omniscent, he basically runs the entire show, leaving no room for free will. Unless he were to make the metaphorical rock too heavy to lift, which is another can of worms.



Love and tolerate.

this mistrust of atheists for this reason is pretty rooted in a lot of christians are far as I've seen. My parents know I'm an atheist and never bother me about it, but they do admit that they couldn't see themselves voting an atheist in as president, and that's probably partially because of this idea that atheists have lesser morals.



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RubberWhistleHistle said:
atheism and morality.. hmm.

let me put it to you this way:

atheist don't believe in anything supernatural, right? so that means nothing outside of space matter and time. the only things that exist are things that are confined to these parameters. therefore, that would truly mean that we humans are made up of matter and nothing more than that. if we are just atoms and molecules, isn't it fair to say that all our actions are governed by the laws of chemistry, thermodynamics, physics and so on and so forth? in this kind of view, there really is no room for free choice. your actions and thoughts are controlled by things that are out of your control. if this is the case, then how can somebody who is an atheist say that person x should have done this certain thing, or should not have done this certain thing. trying to make somebody accountable for their actions would be like trying to make water going a waterfall accountable. its like saying, this waterfall shouldnt be behaving in this way.

so in a worldview where people are just simply matter, there doesn't seem to be any room for free choice. if there is nothing that transcends the molecules that we are made of, then we are governed by it. free choice and accountability have to come from the idea that we contain something outside of space matter and time (a soul) that is not governed by molecules and atoms and transcends it, but still interacts with it.

i hope that clears up why christians would say that you can't really have a morality if youre an atheist. while i dont completely agree with this, i do believe that if youre an atheist, you really cant believe in free will (it doesnt jive with the world view). and if you dont believe in free will.. you cant hold people accountable for their actions. (for instance, having a natural proclivity to rape or murder, you can't blame somebody for carrying out these actions unless you believe they are free to choose one way or another)

i hope i communicated all that properly.


I don't understand why free will can't exist within the bounds of chemistry, physics, and science in general.  We may not understand how free will comes about from those things yet as the brain is an amazingly complex system, but there is certainly no requirement that if you don't believe in god the only alternative is fatism in which you have no free choice.  The difference between a religious person's idea of free will and mine is simply how they arise.  The religious person thinks that free will and higher thinking in general comes from the divine, where as I think it's a consequence of having a more highly adapted network of neurons in the brain.  



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NiKKoM said:
Someone needs a hug...

Interestingly this was my exact reaction to the OP as well



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Well he is wrong.

He can say that at least Neo Nazi's believe in something.......but that said, that is still grossly inappropriate and has 0 bearing on morality.



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vivster said:
I'm always baffled by the low standards some people have when it comes to calling other people "friends".


One of my "friends" (for his protection, let's call him Bob) had known me for years before he had his talk with me. Bob was the guy who taught me how to catch a football (non-Americans should read that as "handegg"). He helped me out when I was wet and miserable while camping in the rain. Bob helped convince me that I was smart and kind enough to teach Cub Scouts to do things like tie knots and perform basic first aid. And I helped Bob too. I helped him learn things for classes, was eager to give him a hand when he was working on a two-man job, etc. And we spent a fair amount of time discussing things like literature, nature, and the joy of altruism.

When I told Bob I was an atheist, I was not telling some stranger I met an hour ago. I was telling someone I had known, relied on, and trusted for literally years.

And he told me I was going to burn forever and would deserve it too.



Love and tolerate.

Mr Khan said:
NiKKoM said:
Someone needs a hug...

Interestingly this was my exact reaction to the OP as well


I needed that.



Love and tolerate.

Nintentacle said:
Dgc1808 said:

I'm afraid of letting anyone in my family know I'm an atheist, aside from my step-brother who feels the same, for very similar reasons. I can't say for sure what to expect buy I know they're very close minded and ignorant of the subject, and I'm heavily dependent on them for survival at the moment. I'm fairly certain I'd be homeless.

EDITED

Well, better hope they don't see this post. Clear the cookies, search history... EVERYTHING!

Hah. No worries on that. I don't even let anyone touch my computer if I'm not right next to them. 



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Torillian said:
RubberWhistleHistle said:


I don't understand why free will can't exist within the bounds of chemistry, physics, and science in general.  We may not understand how free will comes about from those things yet as the brain is an amazingly complex system, but there is certainly no requirement that if you don't believe in god the only alternative is fatism in which you have no free choice.  The difference between a religious person's idea of free will and mine is simply how they arise.  The religious person thinks that free will and higher thinking in general comes from the divine, where as I think it's a consequence of having a more highly adapted network of neurons in the brain.  

hmm.. i dont know. i still believe its a hard sell that you can have free will in a world view that says there is nothing outside our physical existance. 

there is also determinism as well which is the philosophy that i am pretty much saying is in line with this world view. anyway, as i mentioned in my original reply, i think that people would be able to construct a society and be able to determine what behaviors would be morally acceptable and what behaviors would be morally unacceptable, although these standards would be subject and relative to the society, so even then there is no absolute standard of right and wrong. in any case, i think what your proposing (high complexity in the brain) doesnt give way to free will, it gives way to contemplating the idea of right or wrong and constructing a society and therefore, constructing a moral code. again, i dont really think that means that people are completely free to follow it or not, but for the purposes of the betterment of everybody's living space, you can make people abide by it.