A Request for Christians

[Torillian]

RubberWhistleHistle said:
atheism and morality.. hmm.

let me put it to you this way:

atheist don't believe in anything supernatural, right? so that means nothing outside of space matter and time. the only things that exist are things that are confined to these parameters. therefore, that would truly mean that we humans are made up of matter and nothing more than that. if we are just atoms and molecules, isn't it fair to say that all our actions are governed by the laws of chemistry, thermodynamics, physics and so on and so forth? in this kind of view, there really is no room for free choice. your actions and thoughts are controlled by things that are out of your control. if this is the case, then how can somebody who is an atheist say that person x should have done this certain thing, or should not have done this certain thing. trying to make somebody accountable for their actions would be like trying to make water going a waterfall accountable. its like saying, this waterfall shouldnt be behaving in this way.

so in a worldview where people are just simply matter, there doesn't seem to be any room for free choice. if there is nothing that transcends the molecules that we are made of, then we are governed by it. free choice and accountability have to come from the idea that we contain something outside of space matter and time (a soul) that is not governed by molecules and atoms and transcends it, but still interacts with it.

i hope that clears up why christians would say that you can't really have a morality if youre an atheist. while i dont completely agree with this, i do believe that if youre an atheist, you really cant believe in free will (it doesnt jive with the world view). and if you dont believe in free will.. you cant hold people accountable for their actions. (for instance, having a natural proclivity to rape or murder, you can't blame somebody for carrying out these actions unless you believe they are free to choose one way or another)

i hope i communicated all that properly.

I don't understand why free will can't exist within the bounds of chemistry, physics, and science in general.  We may not understand how free will comes about from those things yet as the brain is an amazingly complex system, but there is certainly no requirement that if you don't believe in god the only alternative is fatism in which you have no free choice.  The difference between a religious person's idea of free will and mine is simply how they arise.  The religious person thinks that free will and higher thinking in general comes from the divine, where as I think it's a consequence of having a more highly adapted network of neurons in the brain.