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Forums - Politics Discussion - Is raising minimum wage nationwide a horrible idea?

Yes, why should a fast food employee earn more than a hard working teacher or office worker?



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irstupid said:
People who think raising minimum wage fixes things are the same idiots who think that if everyone was given a million dollars then we would all be millionaires.

Well we would all be millionaires technically speaking, but we would not be living the millionaire lifestyle. All of a sudden a gallon of milk would cost $10 or a case of beer $50. Gas would be raised to $10 a gallon, ect. The value of the dollar would decrease.


Yes! You sum it up prefectly!



the2real4mafol said:
supernihilist said:
Its simple. The lower the wage, the higher the number of employees a Company can have with the same money. Higher production with no added cost.
Thats why capitalist conglomerates always put pressure trying to push minimum wage down.

You can't have a healthy economy that way. Capitalist economy is also based heavily on consumerism. If most people can't afford more than basic goods to survive (food, water, shelter, education, energy, healthcare in US etc) then the economy would start to collapse as wealth or profits would start to disappear. Really it should be in the interests of the capitalist class to ensure people can buy their stuff but instead it's done with fake credit rather than real cash. 

Also, why would a company hire more people if labour is cheaper when it's not expanding? that makes no sense. 

Pushing down wages may sound good to you but because of constant inflation it would never work. Yet alone the opposition from unions and workers. The thing with minimum wage is to be a balance to allow people to start on decent wages to live on but also keep the balance with the constant cost of living which seems to always rise. Going to 15 is really taking it to where it should of been had wages not stagnated since the 80s. 

Your assertion that a capitalist economy is based on consumerism is strictly false. Capitalism is based on the private ownership of the means of production and distribution of goods, and the free exchange of goods and services under the motivation of profit. Capitalism is no more based on consumption than any other economic model. All economies rely on buying and selling.

Now American society at large might be based on consumerism (keeping up with the jonses, massive amounts of consumer credit and debt etc.) you could certainly make that argument but Capitaism? No.

We shouldn't have to "push" down wages they should naturally fall or rise to where they need to be through individuals making the decision for themselves on how much their time and energy is worth.

There are many reasons for hiring more labor if you can afford it besides the expansion of your business. It gives you a larger pool of workers with which to spread the work load, thereby ensuring you can cover lost days of productivity when another woker is sick or on leave. It allows you to keep operations open for longer periods of time or to not close shop at all. It eases work stress on employees thereby helping them to be more productive. It isn't simply about expanding.

Going to $15/hr is an arbitrary number with absolutely NO real data to support it being the silver bullet to end poverty or create equality or raise the standard of living for those who make minimum wage today. Because we have minimum wage laws we are doomed to repeat this cycle over and over and over again and all well have to show for it is a nation of millionares who still can't afford to buy a loaf of bread.



BMaker11 said:
Kazus said:

The worst part of this thread is the immediate assumption that
A) The cost of living is the same in every state
And
B) Anyone working minimum wage is lazy, never went to some college or graduated and/or has kids that they "planned to get" (and I won't elaborate on that, use your brain).

This is why you don't have these kinds of discussions on forums of a luxury hobby.

Raising minumum wage (that high all at once) doesn't solve everything but it will definitely help people once deflation occurs and power returns to your money. All those people have to do is save their money until then and use it effectively. 

Nobody said people working minimum wage was "lazy", just that the job they're doing that take no skills to accomplish shouldn't be overly compensated. As for people and college, take a look here. Jobs are out there. It's on you to be qualified for it. Just because you went to school doesn't automatically mean you get a job. Art history, Philosophy, and English majors obviously went to school, but there's barely any jobs in those sectors...but those students freely chose those majors. 7.9M may seem steep (omg so many people can't get a job!), but an unemployent rate of 5.6% is pretty damned low (if all those positions were filled instantly).

And sex has consequences. If you're going out and having sex and having kids as a result, that's not society's fault; that's your fault. Society isn't responsible for your actions, you are. Whether your kids are planned or not planned, it's still your responsibility

But who is to say that certain people deserve to be paid so much more? The market is not an infallible arbiter of prices, and certainly has no moral underpinnings to speak of. If the people are making too little to live on, then they're making too little, period. 

Secondly, these things happen, especially when the side of the aisle screaming about "personal responsibility" is the one trying its damned hardest to prevent access to contraception of all kinds, or even the teaching of such in schools.



Monster Hunter: pissing me off since 2010.

Mr Khan said:

But who is to say that certain people deserve to be paid so much more? The market is not an infallible arbiter of prices, and certainly has no moral underpinnings to speak of. If the people are making too little to live on, then they're making too little, period. 

Secondly, these things happen, especially when the side of the aisle screaming about "personal responsibility" is the one trying its damned hardest to prevent access to contraception of all kinds, or even the teaching of such in schools.

Well, if I'm an engineer, and I design infrastructure and the like, tasks that takes years of education and training, and even more time to plan designs and then execute....do you think stocking shelves at the grocery store (a job that literally a child could do if it were legal) should be paid anywhere close to the same?

If I'm a doctor, who has to do open heart surgery, diagnose symptoms with the proper medications, know just about everything about the human anatomy, etc. things that take over a decade to learn, plus clinical rotations and examinations....do you think saying "That'll be $7.85" should be paid anywhere close to the same?

Who's to say certain people deserve to be paid so much more? Well, I think common sense would dictate that they be paid so much more. A job that takes time, money, effort, education, rigorous examination, multiple interviews, etc. just to obtain should definitely be paid more than a job, like I stated before, that can be filled by any random schmo on the streets.

I agree, slightly, with your last statement, though. I hate that the people who say "you shouldn't be going out having kids" are the same people that go out and block contraception by any means necessary (either by preventing it from being covered by insurance or by using the "conscience clause") and teach abstinence only. And I would say that in this day and age, you'd have to be completely retarded not to know that sex leads to children, if you're not safe about, but I know a terrible enough percentage of kids don't know that. But at the end of the day, and I'll reiterate it a 3rd time: jobs that take no training and can be completed by a high schooler should not be paid the same as jobs that take high skills. Such is life.



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BMaker11 said:
Mr Khan said:

But who is to say that certain people deserve to be paid so much more? The market is not an infallible arbiter of prices, and certainly has no moral underpinnings to speak of. If the people are making too little to live on, then they're making too little, period. 

Secondly, these things happen, especially when the side of the aisle screaming about "personal responsibility" is the one trying its damned hardest to prevent access to contraception of all kinds, or even the teaching of such in schools.

Well, if I'm an engineer, and I design infrastructure and the like, tasks that takes years of education and training, and even more time to plan designs and then execute....do you think stocking shelves at the grocery store (a job that literally a child could do if it were legal) should be paid anywhere close to the same?

If I'm a doctor, who has to do open heart surgery, diagnose symptoms with the proper medications, know just about everything about the human anatomy, etc. things that take over a decade to learn, plus clinical rotations and examinations....do you think saying "That'll be $7.85" should be paid anywhere close to the same?

Who's to say certain people deserve to be paid so much more? Well, I think common sense would dictate that they be paid so much more. A job that takes time, money, effort, education, rigorous examination, multiple interviews, etc. just to obtain should definitely be paid more than a job, like I stated before, that can be filled by any random schmo on the streets.

I agree, slightly, with your last statement, though. I hate that the people who say "you shouldn't be going out having kids" are the same people that go out and block contraception by any means necessary (either by preventing it from being covered by insurance or by using the "conscience clause") and teach abstinence only. And I would say that in this day and age, you'd have to be completely retarded not to know that sex leads to children, if you're not safe about, but I know a terrible enough percentage of kids don't know that. But at the end of the day, and I'll reiterate it a 3rd time: jobs that take no training and can be completed by a high schooler should not be paid the same as jobs that take high skills. Such is life.

I suppose i phrased myself poorly earlier. What i meant is why do the unskilled deserve to get paid so little? Basically, if we're talking about people who can't support themselves, society has to pay for that one way or another, whether it's businesses forced to pay more in wages or taxpayers ponying up for welfare programs. Might as well cut the middleman and see to it that everyone earns a living wage so long as they're employed, as if payment for unskilled labor is less than what it takes to survive, and we take for granted the idea that people "deserve" what they're paid, then it's indirectly telling these people that they don't deserve to have a place to live, food, or clothing.

So my phrasing should have been "who said these people should be paid so low" rather than "who said better-skilled people should earn so much more?"



Monster Hunter: pissing me off since 2010.

krafty89 said:
spurgeonryan said:
Pretty much every state is talking about raising the minimum wage right now. Then what! Prices will just go up. You cannot expect to get a ton of money for doing minimum wage jobs. It is not businesses fault that you did not go to college, did not work hard, had kids, etc.

 

Well, I know I wasn't saying that. But I also infer that "work hard" means making yourself more attractive to employers by increasing your skillset, in which case it would be true that many people working minimum wage "did not work hard". But in the sense of putting in 40 hours or more a week, no one in their right mind would call that lazy or not literally working hard. Working is working, no matter what you do. But if I ever say "work hard", I mean expanding your skills in order to obtain a better job. Learning a craft, a program, a trade, etc. instead of flipping burgers. I call that "hard work", in the context of the posts I've been making in this thread



Stop treating this issue as an issue of individual merit.

One person can get a degree. That person can lean a skill, earn a promotion, or find some other way to become successful.

Millions of people cannot simultaneously pull themselves out of low-wage jobs, because there is a limited number of better jobs available. The job market, as it stands today, favors low-paying work. Fast food is the fastest growing industry in the country. While, if you look at each worker individually, they can often get out of minimum wage, we as a nation are stuck with a lot of low-wage workers for the foreseeable future.

Raising minimum wage won't solve the underlying problems with our economy, but it must be addressed.



USA's minimum wage is ridiculous. Before saying it's bad for america, just research how it did for other countries.



BMaker11 said:
Mr Khan said:

But who is to say that certain people deserve to be paid so much more? The market is not an infallible arbiter of prices, and certainly has no moral underpinnings to speak of. If the people are making too little to live on, then they're making too little, period. 

Secondly, these things happen, especially when the side of the aisle screaming about "personal responsibility" is the one trying its damned hardest to prevent access to contraception of all kinds, or even the teaching of such in schools.

Well, if I'm an engineer, and I design infrastructure and the like, tasks that takes years of education and training, and even more time to plan designs and then execute....do you think stocking shelves at the grocery store (a job that literally a child could do if it were legal) should be paid anywhere close to the same?

If I'm a doctor, who has to do open heart surgery, diagnose symptoms with the proper medications, know just about everything about the human anatomy, etc. things that take over a decade to learn, plus clinical rotations and examinations....do you think saying "That'll be $7.85" should be paid anywhere close to the same?

Who's to say certain people deserve to be paid so much more? Well, I think common sense would dictate that they be paid so much more. A job that takes time, money, effort, education, rigorous examination, multiple interviews, etc. just to obtain should definitely be paid more than a job, like I stated before, that can be filled by any random schmo on the streets.

I agree, slightly, with your last statement, though. I hate that the people who say "you shouldn't be going out having kids" are the same people that go out and block contraception by any means necessary (either by preventing it from being covered by insurance or by using the "conscience clause") and teach abstinence only. And I would say that in this day and age, you'd have to be completely retarded not to know that sex leads to children, if you're not safe about, but I know a terrible enough percentage of kids don't know that. But at the end of the day, and I'll reiterate it a 3rd time: jobs that take no training and can be completed by a high schooler should not be paid the same as jobs that take high skills. Such is life.


The thing you're not understanding is that jobs need to get done regardless of skill, school, or experience.  You're making it sound like you wouldn't want to do any of those stuff, but regardless the job needs to be done.  Would you rather walk into a warehouse, rummage through boxes to find the groceries you need?  Would you rather constantly be picking up expired dairy products because the grocery clerks weren't there to pull them off the shelves?  Would you rather go to a farm, pick up your veggies, pull them out of the ground and go through a bunch of crop that isn't ready or over grown to eat?  Cause that's what happens when you get rid of people stocking grocery shelves.  These people should be given a livable wage, and to be frank should be given a wage to let them be in middle class (Which is disappearing thanks to corporate america hoarding trillions of dollars).

The other thing too with your engineering statement.  An Engineer is no more important that the workers building the buildings.  Buildings wouldn't exist without the construction companies and the "uneducated" workers puting together the structure.  There's also an issue when no engineer can ever take into consideration unknown quantities that come up during construction and the construction workers need to adapt plans.  As an example; my cousin is an electrician.  He spends a lot of times fixing up drawings because the electrical engineers draw up plans not realizing issues that occur when trying to run wires through certain boxes or areas.  Guess who gets plaid more?  

Now, I agree a person who went through post secondary education should be compensated more but it's not just cut and dry.  A surgeon can operate on you and save your life, but it's the nurses who come at beckon's call to make sure you get better.  Never seen a surgeon come every day to see any patient.  Nurses put in more work why are they compensated less?  People would die just as easily after an operation without nurses.