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Forums - Gaming Discussion - First ever 4k next gen gameplay

allblue said:
Pemalite said:

It's simple.
Just grab the youtube link, then click the "Insert / Edit embedded Media" button and insert the Youtube link.
Hint: It's the Bottom right button when you are editing/replying to a post.


Thanks. Weird, I can't seem to embed videos in my original post, there is an option when I'm replying to the thread however. 


this site is real finicky with youtube embeds especially in the OP.   ..for some reason it works better when you reply.  BUT,. if you go to this site (http://www.tools4noobs.com/online_tools/youtube_xhtml/) and put the youtube URL into the top box it will generate code that vgchartz responds well to when pasted into the HTML feature.  



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So I am a backer and encourage you to all join in, but this game is going to cost me so much money...

Toms hardware did a feature a feature about 4k gaming saying that 770 SLI is basically the base level of investment, ie £700 in graphics cards alone

So yeah, I am going to enjoy Star Citizen, but if I wanted it in 4k, I'd have to get a £2,000+ display and then probably upgrade my processor and graphics cards, so like another £1,000 of upgrades. It's not really worth it yet



Frequency said:
joora said:
Frequency said:
joora said:
Frequency said:
Not seeing how this is any different than running a modern game on a 4k monitor Tbh.


Well, it's almost the same as you've said that you don't see how it is any different running a DVD-quality video on a FullHD screen compared to running a blu-ray disc with 1080p video on a FullHD screen.

Hint: if you have a 4k monitor you can set most PC games to its native res.


Hint: that only gives you smoothness of object edges, not higher-res textures or other assets. So there is a difference bettween running a modern game in 4K natively and running a 4K optimized game (as in texture quality and other things) in 4K.

Edit: It also means that your GFX card and other PC components must be up to snuff to actually run all that smoothly, ofcourse.

If you genuinely think that current games do not have the texture capability to display on 4k just fine youre mistaken, many of the latest games for PC have shipped with, or optionally had available, high resolution textures up to 4096x4096, but even when for the most part the textures are 2048x2048, or even 1024x1024 or any power of two variation, the likelyhood of that texture being displayed on the screen where the full resolution of the texture is displayed at native or stretched, is extremely small.

When youre looking at a wall in the distance, the image on screen shows that wall as being only a few hundred pixels high and a thousand or so long, meaning the amount of texture you actually see is for example, 256x256 tiled, if, and in most cases will be the actual case, the wall texture is a power of two such as 1024x4096, or 512x2048, you would need to be close enough to the wall for it to be filling that amount of screen realestate JUST TO GET IT TO SHOW AT ITS NATIVE RESOLUTION, and when it does end up closer, shader effects, bump mapping and detail textures muxed in with the material maintain a level of detail higher than the original texture asset anyway.

In short, you do not need "special 4k textures" to display games at 4k and see a benefit.

Of course, if you feel a far off object on screen taking up a few hundred pixels, but the object itself having a 1024x1024 texture applied, somehow wont look better if the amount of that texture being shown is higher, then you have some major issues.

 

In short, higher resolution doesnt just "smooth the edge of objects", you dont "need 4k specific textures and assets" for a game to be the first "4k next gen", increasing the resolution, increases how much of the texture on each and every object drawn, is visable.

There are no ways about it, you cannot just say "all textures will be 4k" then, because for one, no graphics card around will have the vmem for it, and for two, its an absolute waste of memory for anything other than ground and wall, and skybox textures - and guess what, most modern games use high res textures for those already.

But please, go ahead, tell a game dev shes wrong, see how far it gets you.

Bonus tip, not many of the textures in the game linked will be 4096x4096 either, and the specular maps on the asteroids are definitely below half the resolution of the asteroid itself.

I agree with you for the most part, but you can't say that many of the modern games are made with the 4K resolution in mind. But they do do work in 4K and they look somewhat better than in lower resolutions. And while there are 4096x4096 textures implemented, it's important to what scale in the game they are applied, and so on. But you know all this, so it's pointless arguing. 

Edit: since most games focus on character design to be extra detailed and have killer looks, here's my case in point - some 4K screens

http://i4.minus.com/iupzfrjVzmVA5.png - crysis 3 - face is passable even at 4K, but look at the clothes textures.

http://i7.minus.com/ibi3BqzL6AZSni.png - Metro 2033

http://i7.minus.com/ibs2d4opiy3xhG.png - Fifa 13

So, a game that will be made to push the limits of the upcoming high-end hardware in 4K will most probably have to do a better job.



.

Frequency said:
joora said:
Frequency said:
joora said:
Frequency said:
Not seeing how this is any different than running a modern game on a 4k monitor Tbh.


Well, it's almost the same as you've said that you don't see how it is any different running a DVD-quality video on a FullHD screen compared to running a blu-ray disc with 1080p video on a FullHD screen.

Hint: if you have a 4k monitor you can set most PC games to its native res.


Hint: that only gives you smoothness of object edges, not higher-res textures or other assets. So there is a difference bettween running a modern game in 4K natively and running a 4K optimized game (as in texture quality and other things) in 4K.

Edit: It also means that your GFX card and other PC components must be up to snuff to actually run all that smoothly, ofcourse.

If you genuinely think that current games do not have the texture capability to display on 4k just fine youre mistaken, many of the latest games for PC have shipped with, or optionally had available, high resolution textures up to 4096x4096, but even when for the most part the textures are 2048x2048, or even 1024x1024 or any power of two variation, the likelyhood of that texture being displayed on the screen where the full resolution of the texture is displayed at native or stretched, is extremely small.

When youre looking at a wall in the distance, the image on screen shows that wall as being only a few hundred pixels high and a thousand or so long, meaning the amount of texture you actually see is for example, 256x256 tiled, if, and in most cases will be the actual case, the wall texture is a power of two such as 1024x4096, or 512x2048, you would need to be close enough to the wall for it to be filling that amount of screen realestate JUST TO GET IT TO SHOW AT ITS NATIVE RESOLUTION, and when it does end up closer, shader effects, bump mapping and detail textures muxed in with the material maintain a level of detail higher than the original texture asset anyway.

In short, you do not need "special 4k textures" to display games at 4k and see a benefit.

Of course, if you feel a far off object on screen taking up a few hundred pixels, but the object itself having a 1024x1024 texture applied, somehow wont look better if the amount of that texture being shown is higher, then you have some major issues.

 

In short, higher resolution doesnt just "smooth the edge of objects", you dont "need 4k specific textures and assets" for a game to be the first "4k next gen", increasing the resolution, increases how much of the texture on each and every object drawn, is visable.

There are no ways about it, you cannot just say "all textures will be 4k" then, because for one, no graphics card around will have the vmem for it, and for two, its an absolute waste of memory for anything other than ground and wall, and skybox textures - and guess what, most modern games use high res textures for those already.

But please, go ahead, tell a game dev shes wrong, see how far it gets you.

Bonus tip, not many of the textures in the game linked will be 4096x4096 either, and the specular maps on the asteroids are definitely below half the resolution of the asteroid itself.


Are you referring to PC games only?  It is pretty easy to see that almost all console games have their textures down sampled.  When you walk up to most walls, you do see textures being stretched.  It doesn't help that most games are designed for 720p and most likely designed to fit on a single DVD for Xbox 360 compatibility.

For PC releases, do they have high res textures or do they just use the same textures as consoles?  The only game that I know of that did this was Skyrim, which had a high res texture pack download.



joora said:
Frequency said:
joora said:
Frequency said:
joora said:
Frequency said:
Not seeing how this is any different than running a modern game on a 4k monitor Tbh.


Well, it's almost the same as you've said that you don't see how it is any different running a DVD-quality video on a FullHD screen compared to running a blu-ray disc with 1080p video on a FullHD screen.

Hint: if you have a 4k monitor you can set most PC games to its native res.


Hint: that only gives you smoothness of object edges, not higher-res textures or other assets. So there is a difference bettween running a modern game in 4K natively and running a 4K optimized game (as in texture quality and other things) in 4K.

Edit: It also means that your GFX card and other PC components must be up to snuff to actually run all that smoothly, ofcourse.

If you genuinely think that current games do not have the texture capability to display on 4k just fine youre mistaken, many of the latest games for PC have shipped with, or optionally had available, high resolution textures up to 4096x4096, but even when for the most part the textures are 2048x2048, or even 1024x1024 or any power of two variation, the likelyhood of that texture being displayed on the screen where the full resolution of the texture is displayed at native or stretched, is extremely small.

When youre looking at a wall in the distance, the image on screen shows that wall as being only a few hundred pixels high and a thousand or so long, meaning the amount of texture you actually see is for example, 256x256 tiled, if, and in most cases will be the actual case, the wall texture is a power of two such as 1024x4096, or 512x2048, you would need to be close enough to the wall for it to be filling that amount of screen realestate JUST TO GET IT TO SHOW AT ITS NATIVE RESOLUTION, and when it does end up closer, shader effects, bump mapping and detail textures muxed in with the material maintain a level of detail higher than the original texture asset anyway.

In short, you do not need "special 4k textures" to display games at 4k and see a benefit.

Of course, if you feel a far off object on screen taking up a few hundred pixels, but the object itself having a 1024x1024 texture applied, somehow wont look better if the amount of that texture being shown is higher, then you have some major issues.

 

In short, higher resolution doesnt just "smooth the edge of objects", you dont "need 4k specific textures and assets" for a game to be the first "4k next gen", increasing the resolution, increases how much of the texture on each and every object drawn, is visable.

There are no ways about it, you cannot just say "all textures will be 4k" then, because for one, no graphics card around will have the vmem for it, and for two, its an absolute waste of memory for anything other than ground and wall, and skybox textures - and guess what, most modern games use high res textures for those already.

But please, go ahead, tell a game dev shes wrong, see how far it gets you.

Bonus tip, not many of the textures in the game linked will be 4096x4096 either, and the specular maps on the asteroids are definitely below half the resolution of the asteroid itself.

I agree with you for the most part, but you can't say that many of the modern games are made with the 4K resolution in mind. But they do do work in 4K and they look somewhat better than in lower resolutions. And while there are 4096x4096 textures implemented, it's important to what scale in the game they are applied, and so on. But you know all this, so it's pointless arguing. 

Edit: since most games focus on character design to be extra detailed and have killer looks, here's my case in point - some 4K screens

http://i4.minus.com/iupzfrjVzmVA5.png - crysis 3 - face is passable even at 4K, but look at the clothes textures.

http://i7.minus.com/ibi3BqzL6AZSni.png - Metro 2033

http://i7.minus.com/ibs2d4opiy3xhG.png - Fifa 13

So, a game that will be made to push the limits of the upcoming high-end hardware in 4K will most probably have to do a better job.

If you can run a game at 4k, then it runs at 4k, 4k is just a resolution as such the topic claims this to be the first game to run at 4k, which given that its a pc title, its extra silly.

again, games will always show better results at higher resolutions except for objects extremey close to the screen, as more pixels of each texture as visable on models further away that otherwise would be a muddy mess.

To make it absolutely clear, heres battlefield 3, prior to take off from the carrier, both at the same settings the only difference is the left is upscaled from its native 1080p to match the size of the 4k image.

Edges and aliasing are not the only thing that improves, as i have now said multiple times.



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Dr.EisDrachenJaeger said:
How is this cool? 4K is a resolution.


Image quality is very crisp and clean, but for the price I don't think its worth it.



Frequency said:

If you can run a game at 4k, then it runs at 4k, 4k is just a resolution as such the topic claims this to be the first game to run at 4k, which given that its a pc title, its extra silly.

again, games will always show better results at higher resolutions except for objects extremey close to the screen, as more pixels of each texture as visable on models further away that otherwise would be a muddy mess.

To make it absolutely clear, heres battlefield 3, prior to take off from the carrier, both at the same settings the only difference is the left is upscaled from its native 1080p to match the size of the 4k image.

Edges and aliasing are not the only thing that improves, as i have now said multiple times.


I'm not arguing that 4k is just a resolution.
However, StarCitizen is doing more than just rendering at a higher resolution with a High-Resolution texture pack to look fantastic at 4k.
They aren't merely stretching a texture over a surface and calling it a day, they aren't baking details into the textures, they are using real geometry for everything.
That Battlefield 3 picture is a perfect example, where the metal rings on the hanger deck are baked-in texture details, in StarCitizen small details such as that would be geometric.
Problem with that approach however is that, when you scale up in resolution, it also removes jagged edges, so low-poly assets with little aliasing are more obvious with their flat sides.

You normally don't notice such small details in a console game, because compared to even 1440P/1600P/4k the 720P/1080P console games look downright blurry and low definition, that it hides most of those flaws.

Essentially in the end, this level of fidelity is only possible on the PC and because the game is going to be so popular, with mod support, I wouldn't be surprised if this ends up being the best looking game on any platform for several years.



--::{PC Gaming Master Race}::--

Pemalite said:
Frequency said:

If you can run a game at 4k, then it runs at 4k, 4k is just a resolution as such the topic claims this to be the first game to run at 4k, which given that its a pc title, its extra silly.

again, games will always show better results at higher resolutions except for objects extremey close to the screen, as more pixels of each texture as visable on models further away that otherwise would be a muddy mess.

To make it absolutely clear, heres battlefield 3, prior to take off from the carrier, both at the same settings the only difference is the left is upscaled from its native 1080p to match the size of the 4k image.

Edges and aliasing are not the only thing that improves, as i have now said multiple times.


I'm not arguing that 4k is just a resolution.
However, StarCitizen is doing more than just rendering at a higher resolution with a High-Resolution texture pack to look fantastic at 4k.
They aren't merely stretching a texture over a surface and calling it a day, they aren't baking details into the textures, they are using real geometry for everything.
That Battlefield 3 picture is a perfect example, where the metal rings on the hanger deck are baked-in texture details, in StarCitizen small details such as that would be geometric.
Problem with that approach however is that, when you scale up in resolution, it also removes jagged edges, so low-poly assets with little aliasing are more obvious with their flat sides.

You normally don't notice such small details in a console game, because compared to even 1440P/1600P/4k the 720P/1080P console games look downright blurry and low definition, that it hides most of those flaws.

Essentially in the end, this level of fidelity is only possible on the PC and because the game is going to be so popular, with mod support, I wouldn't be surprised if this ends up being the best looking game on any platform for several years.

Take it from me, if they really go to that level of detail for normal environments and not just the ships while in space, you can be sure that the game wont be doing so at 4K unless youre running a rediculously expensive pc.

There is very little gain over a high resolution texture and high resolutin normal map for small things like the bolt plates on the ground in the provided picture, the geometry being done in 3d would look almost identical to a high resolution texture with a high resolution normal map, as the geometry wouldnt extrude far enough to be worthwhile, clearly the issue with the BF3 bolting rings isnt the texture, which scales just fine, but the specular map, as reflected light is bouncing off the sections of the ring that would normally be submerged, were they done more accurately there would be little difference between them and 3d versions, even at 4k.

Its also a bold claim, considering a large portion of the surfaces on the craft in star citizen are just that, high res textures with high res normal maps, only key geometry accents are actually modelled, the same as most modern games would.

Besides all that, going to that level of detail will result in:

A game most people cant play at a usable framerate, even at lower resolutions.
A game that requires a card with enough power to store all of this highly detailed geometry, textures, shaders and so on, and display them all at 4k, most of the current highest end cards would not cut it.
A game with very long loading times.

PC games generally arent built with specific resolutions in mind, they are built with SPECIFICATIONS in mind, while its all well and good filling your world with high resolution geometry and textures, but if in the end the customers you intend to sell the game to cannot run it, you have a big problem.

Dont get me wrong, i do agree with you on 4k warranting more higher detailed geometry and assets, i just dont believe that this game is going to deliver on that, not because of the developers or their vision, but simply because there isnt hardware available to support that vision, and unless they spent a lot of time and money making various LODs for every mesh (have fun with that if youre going to the extremes), it would end up running like crap even at lower resolutions for an extrmely large portion of the potential install base.

 

Also for reference.

Hardly cutting edge stuff here, the ships in the trailer arent much better either, i could pull stills from it all day and point out the low poly geometry, but that isnt the point, the game looks beautiful, just not for the reasons people are claiming.



You're forgetting the game is still in pre-alpha.
Allot of assets like those rockets are still being worked on, the game is designed as a high-end PC game, most single GPU's should struggle, I.E. Not achieve 60fps even at 1080P.

Plus, the game is going to have mod support, that means graphics mods should be in abundance, much akin to Skyrim.



--::{PC Gaming Master Race}::--

Pemalite said:

You're forgetting the game is still in pre-alpha.
Allot of assets like those rockets are still being worked on, the game is designed as a high-end PC game, most single GPU's should struggle, I.E. Not achieve 60fps even at 1080P.

In which case when its released and i point out the same, can we then agree that the notion of going to such lengths is a silly one?

youre essentially telling me to believe that theyre going to do all this work, get it to the point of a trailer, then scrap all the models and remake them in higher quality?, i doubt it, as both a gamer and a developer, i doubt it very much.