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Forums - Gaming Discussion - Were PS360 too powerful upon release?

zorg1000 said:
mrstickball said:
No. Not at all.

The PS3 sold at a massive loss because it had some very proprietary, poorly-designed technology via its Cell processor (which was like $200 alone vs. the X360's IBM Power-PC based processor, which was arguably as good throughout the generation).

The 360 sold at a small loss - something like $50-75 USD for the HDD version and maybe $125 for the non-HDD version (which was always the lesser of the two in sales).

I think Sony made some bad decisions in regards to its architecture, which could be argued it was too spec-heavy (which led to cost overruns). But given how everything turned out.. They both did a lot better job than Nintendo did by a country mile.

Nintendo dropped the ball and screwed up the Wii specs, badly. They could have at least put something a bit more powerful in it - even $50 more of tech like more RAM and a better CPU. It would have paid them back in spades, as it would have meant more multi-platform games. Now, the WiiU can never catch up because 3rd parties know what the consumer reaction will be to a last-gen piece of technology once the fad has ran off.

Yes, you can point fingers at X360/PS3, but they aren't nearly at fault as compared to Nintendo. Their online sucked, their media solution was abysmal. Their HDDs couldn't support DLC, or anything that mattered for online content, and their 3rd party relationships were nothing more than casual games and chop-shop ports. That does not spell any sort of success for Nintendo outside of what they did internally with the Wii Sports/Fit,ect titles. Those did great, and helped the system sell in the short term, but eventually its systemic problems were brought out, resulting in a very poor showing late in life, and that's spilled over to the WiiU, which has sold abysmally.

How do u see this scenario playing out. All 3 release holiday 2006. 360-same specs, delay is used to make sure RROD never happens, cost $400 60gb HDD. PS3-no Blu-Ray and more cost-efficent alternative to the Cell, equel in power to 360, cost $400 60gb HDD. Wii-beefier specs, the bare minumum to run games in HD, still uses motion controls, $300 8gb HDD.

Wii destroys both of them initially due to the huge install base. Assuming specs are in the same ballpark as the 360, developers would make that the primary console for development if it was easy to develop for (and generally, that is one of Nintendo's stronger suits). Over the long run, online becomes more important which would be the achilles heel in that situation - developers hungry for DLC revenues put HD consoles out in front in 08-09, eventually leading to the Wii's decline, but it'd probably sell +20 million units, and the HD twins drop probably 10-15 million units in sales vs. OTL. WiiU never has the problems we see today, and hits the ground running, but still weaker than the Wii.



Back from the dead, I'm afraid.

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zorg1000 said:
Seece said:
Took 360 less than 2 years to become profitable (or the EDD at least). Perhaps PS3 was tho, given it's made a huge loss that it won't recover.


What is EDD?


Microsoft's Entertainment & Devices Division. The part of the company that sells and reports profit/loss for the 360. By Q4 2007, it turned a $100 million+ profit that quarter. Since then, its been profitable every quarter, other than the one where they wrote down $1 billion USD due to RROD.



Back from the dead, I'm afraid.

zorg1000 said:
Daisuke72 said:
Hell no, we were barely doing 720P @ 30FPS this gen, if they were less poweful we'd be using sub-hd. Which some games still have to use.


Does gaming in HD make the games better?


If you are playing on a 1080p tv, absolutly. Sub HD 3rd games are very hard on the eyes on something like a 50in full HDTV. 2d side scrollers are livable, but playing PS1, and PS2 games is headache indusing.



Stop hate, let others live the life they were given. Everyone has their problems, and no one should have to feel ashamed for the way they were born. Be proud of who you are, encourage others to be proud of themselves. Learn, research, absorb everything around you. Nothing is meaningless, a purpose is placed on everything no matter how you perceive it. Discover how to love, and share that love with everything that you encounter. Help make existence a beautiful thing.

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10/03/2010 

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mrstickball said:
zorg1000 said:
Seece said:
Took 360 less than 2 years to become profitable (or the EDD at least). Perhaps PS3 was tho, given it's made a huge loss that it won't recover.


What is EDD?


Microsoft's Entertainment & Devices Division. The part of the company that sells and reports profit/loss for the 360. By Q4 2007, it turned a $100 million+ profit that quarter. Since then, its been profitable every quarter, other than the one where they wrote down $1 billion USD due to RROD.

Ok thanks and do u happen to know if 360 has lost or gained money in the long run? Im pretty sure PS3 while selling at a profit for the last few years stil hasnt made up for its initial losses.



When the herd loses its way, the shepard must kill the bull that leads them astray.

zorg1000 said:
mrstickball said:
zorg1000 said:
Seece said:
Took 360 less than 2 years to become profitable (or the EDD at least). Perhaps PS3 was tho, given it's made a huge loss that it won't recover.


What is EDD?


Microsoft's Entertainment & Devices Division. The part of the company that sells and reports profit/loss for the 360. By Q4 2007, it turned a $100 million+ profit that quarter. Since then, its been profitable every quarter, other than the one where they wrote down $1 billion USD due to RROD.

Ok thanks and do u happen to know if 360 has lost or gained money in the long run? Im pretty sure PS3 while selling at a profit for the last few years stil hasnt made up for its initial losses.

Given the EDD houses other projects it's impossible to know, but from what we do know, it's likely it's made a good profit. Since mid 2005 (so 6 months before 360, which would include some R&D and manufacturing plus Original Xbox losses) the division has made around $700 million profit ($3.3b losses in first 2 years of its life, $4bill profit over the last 6 FY's.)

As for Sony's Gaming division, it's lost $5bill plus with PSP and PS2 profits, and has only recently started profiting.



 

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Seece said:
zorg1000 said:
mrstickball said:
zorg1000 said:
Seece said:
Took 360 less than 2 years to become profitable (or the EDD at least). Perhaps PS3 was tho, given it's made a huge loss that it won't recover.


What is EDD?


Microsoft's Entertainment & Devices Division. The part of the company that sells and reports profit/loss for the 360. By Q4 2007, it turned a $100 million+ profit that quarter. Since then, its been profitable every quarter, other than the one where they wrote down $1 billion USD due to RROD.

Ok thanks and do u happen to know if 360 has lost or gained money in the long run? Im pretty sure PS3 while selling at a profit for the last few years stil hasnt made up for its initial losses.

Given the EDD houses other projects it's impossible to know, but from what we do know, it's likely it's made a good profit. Since mid 2005 (so 6 months before 360, which would include some R&D and manufacturing plus Original Xbox losses) the division has made around $700 million profit ($3.3b losses in first 2 years of its life, $4bill profit over the last 6 FY's.)

As for Sony's Gaming division, it's lost $5bill plus with PSP and PS2 profits, and has only recently started profiting.

Thanks again



When the herd loses its way, the shepard must kill the bull that leads them astray.

I've stated several times that the PS360 were too powerful back in 2005/2006, but before I replied to this topic, I wanted to review the facts. And after reviewing them...

I'm more convinced than ever!

 

First, let's review the 6th generation before adressing the 7th. The 6th generation consoles were released from late 1998 to early 2002 for launch prices of $200 to $300. They had 26 to 64 MB of RAM, about 10 times as much as the 1994 to 1996 consoles of over half a decade earlier. Of those earlier consoles, the only ones that didn't flop launched at $300 and below, so accounting for inflation, prices fell a bit going into Gen 6.

The 360, with its half a gig of RAM, came out a mere four years after the original Xbox. That was a full generational jump, yes, but done very quickly and early on. The PS3 jump was even greater, with RAM (an easy number to use in these situations) increasing by about 13-fold. This was a bigger jump than the PS1 to PS2 jump, and does not account for the high cost of Blue Ray.

So the PS3 and 360 were ahead of their time. But was this a bad thing?

Well, yes.

The PS2's best years were from 2001 to 2003, the 6th gen's equivalent of 2007 through 2009, with 2004 through 2007 being years of slow decline. If those years sound familiar, it's because that's when the 7th gen's leader, the Wii, was at its best. The GameCube did its best from launch through 2003, and the Xbox from 2002 through 2004. In other words, consoles began selling around their peak within the first year or two. This is a good thing! It means that systems begin paying for themselves and establishing an installbase quickly, allowing for companies to focus on software and the next gen later on.

The PS3 and, in contrast, had its peak from 2010 to 2012, while the 360 had its peak from 2009 to 2011. That meant that it took these consoles almost four years to pick up steam, meaning that their manufacturers suffered losses for a long time before they got their money back.

Furthermore, these late peaks also delayed the 8th generation. Usually, companies release consoles every 5 or 6 years. However, the late peaks meant that Sony and Microsoft honestly had no choice but to delay their next systems, simply because they hadn't gotten their money's worth from their PS360's. Therefore, while the 8th gen should have begun from 2010 to 2012, with the Wii U being one of the last systems to fall into place, it is actually beginning in 2013. Not only did this mean that developers were ironically stuck with weak hardware for longer, it also meant that Nintendo, coming off of a sucessful generation, had the initiative to become the default leader of the next gen (The Wii U's current problems have less to do with Microsoft and Sony's great decisions and more to do with 3rd party hatred of Nintendo and Nintendo's own incompetence).

 

In short, the PS3 and 360 being so powerful hurt their respective companies, made the gen go on for a long time, and ironically handicapped developers later on by forcing them to work with 2005 hardware.

 

So, what would I have recommended these companies do back before the start of the 7th gen? Simple: build a machine for a price point. Accounting for inflation, people would probably have been willing to spend up to $250 or so on a game console, even one with multimedia capabilities, in the mid noughties. Sony and Microsoft should have built their designs around that. Microsoft actually did that partially right by having the $300 "Core" model. Sony, however, messed even that up. They should have either have built a less powerful machine like the PS2 was compared to the original Xbox, forgone Blue Ray and cut $200 from manufacturing costs, or simply have waited another year before releasing the PS3. True, that would have given Microsoft a 2 year advantage, but if Sega's various consoles have taught us anything, its that entering the market  early does not guarantee victory. Besides, the PS2 had enough life in it for another year, especially with its final price cut.

Then, after five or six years, somewhere in the 2010 to 2012 range, Microsoft and Sony could have released the 8th generation of consoles, at a reasonable price of $400 or so, while never having machines as weak as Nintendo's.

 

tl;dr Sony and Microsoft whould have built weaker consoles and have released the XBone and PS4 from 2010 to 2012.

And if you think I'm crazy, compare the 360's and PS3's sales to the PSOne's and PS2's, and wonder why the former are so low despite market growth and a long gen.



Love and tolerate.

zorg1000 said:

Lol I like ur analogy. But I just mean would they have been better off not such beasts and sold $400 hardware at little to no loss.

Would Alan Wake have been worse if it didnt look quite so nice?

That is a tough question.  Alan Wake is a very visual game.  But I think even more than visuals is it's awesome sound.  The game sound lets you know, just like JAWS, when something bad is coming your way and when you need to start getting nervous.  The great soundtrack, excellence voice overs, game and ambient sound all add to create a really creepy atmosphere.

I think the game *must* be played with surround sound an a subwolfer (or perhaps super great headphones. )  The sound is nearly a character in the game itself.

Gosh, talking like this makes me even more curious about Quantum Break.  I want to know what those developers are up too!



 

Really not sure I see any point of Consol over PC's since Kinect, Wii and other alternative ways to play have been abandoned. 

Top 50 'most fun' game list coming soon!

 

Tell me a funny joke!

BossPuma said:

They were too powerful at launch but their life cycles should have ended 2 years ago imo. Games like CoD just kept adding to their longevity. Now they are very underpowered, but its amazing to see how much developers can squeeze out of the hardware


This I think is one of the best things to come out of their long lives tho, when you see how beautiful Halo 4 looks as you walk through that first forest area.... then if you look at launch 360 games the difference is stellar, I would just hope that they continue to use the tricks they learned from the end of this gen right off in the start of the next gen and not just get complacent with their more powerful platforms.



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mrstickball said:
ListerOfSmeg said:

I am not sure on all of that but the Wii did have DLC it also has a lot of online content on Wiiware. I didnt even own one but its not that hard to look into.. Also you cant blame Nintendo for 3rd parties. They did that to themselves. If you look at software sales, a good portion of 3rd party games like Madden, Tiger Woods, actually sold better on Wii at first then PS3 or 360. It wasnt until COD4 skipped Wii, Madden went full casual on Wii, and 3rd parties started dropping really bad ports or spin offs, or rail shooters, that sales slowed. Nintendo cant force 3rd parties to release quality games and considering Nintendo released the highest rated exclusive last gen on inferior hardware it shows the specs really didnt hurt it at all.


1. Wii didn't have remotely as much DLC as the X360/PS3 did. The system wasn't even designed for it due to horrible stock HDD spaces. How many pieces of DLC were over 50MB? Heck, the WiiWare size cap was essentially 50MB the entire generation - whereas the X360 realized that was a bad idea, and removed it quickly, and PSN never had it to begin with.

2. Blame Nintendo instead of 3rd parties for games? Yes, I can. When you had a two-tier system that was either HD or Wii, you can set that blame on a console that simply wasn't in the same timezone as the other two. Look at this generation's top multi-platform games - Wii versions were either hack-jobs, or non-existent entirely. Furthermore, your arguments about EA multi-plats are mostly wrong. The top Madden for Wii sold 860,000 units - about 110,00 units less than the PS3 version, and about 1.5 million less than the X360 version. The gap just grew from there. You are correct about Tiger Woods Wii outselling the PS3/X360 versions, but that was arguably one of the few, if only multi-plat titles that ever outsold either HD version.

3. Nintendo can't force 3rd parties to release competent ports, but they could have given them decent hardware to work. When its virtually impossible to port technology to a given console because its vastly inferior, that isn't the developer's fault - that is the hardware manufacturer's problem in failing to anticipate developer requirements for the generation.

1. It still had it and if I am not mistaken any HDSD card could be used for expanded memory.

2. That's just silly. I am sorry but do you blame MS or Sony for a bad Activision game? Probably not because that wouldnt make sense and it doesnt make snese here other than  to justify your stance against them.

" Look at this generation's top multi-platform games - Wii versions were either hack-jobs, or non-existent entirely" and again I fail to see how that is Nintendos fault. They didnt program the games. We had Elder scrolls on Xbox so no reason one couldnt have worked on Wii. You get out of something what you put into it and that is exactly what most 3rd parties got.

3. I will say it again since you ignored it the first time but having the highest rated exclusive this gen proves the hardware was more than capable.