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Forums - General Discussion - The Official Song of Ice and Fire Thread [UNMARKED SPOILERS FOR ALL BOOKS]

Kantor said:

I'm just glad you enjoyed it

As for the Starks: Sansa has a pretty significant fanbase for some reason even though she has achieved literally nothing except getting tossed around by various people and occasionally throwing a tantrum. But hey, her POV lets us see Littlefinger, so I'm happy. Arya is great, but I agree with you that her story has become a bit of a sidestory. She might head back to Westeros to complete her list at some point.

I don't like Daenerys either. She sends away one of only two people who actually cares about her, and ignores the other in favour of the Harpy and a bunch of other corrupt courtiers. She forces herself upon Meereen when they all clearly despise her and want her to go away. She just generally acts like a spoilt and immature child, and I wouldn't want to see her anywhere near the Iron Throne.

I feel like Stannis would do some good with the throne. Aegon could be great or crazy (two sides of the same coin). Euron would be positively awful.

I can somewhat understand the sympathy and fandom for Sansa, as she is that sort of idyllic character not seen in the rest of the cast. In her heart she still believes in songs and happy endings, despite everything that has happened to her. It's naievete to be sure, but in the series it's actually refreshing compared to the rest of the cast who are all slowly being corrupted and drawn further down into the cesspools of their lives. A secretly wish she can find a happy ending, but with good ol' George at the helm... who knows?

I was a much bigger fan of Arya's at first (who wasn't?), but now... I'm finding less and less to like about her with each ongoing chapter. At this point she's an 11 year old serial killer. *laughs*

Petyr is an interesting (though much unliked) character, only because he's the dark horse of the series. He obviously still has a hand to play in the game of thrones. Though like I said before, I'm getting somewhat tired of that particular game. Still, it will be interesting to see how much he can achieve.



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Smeags said:

Completed the five books in 22 days. Excellent series (with the exception of A Feast for Crows, which read like some fan-fiction side story. I have no idea what George R.R. Martin was thinking when he was writing that book. Thankfully he was back on form with A Dance with Dragons.) and it looks like things are going to get into high gear with The Winds of Winter. Looking forward to it.

Some thoughts...

  • I've read over 5,000 pages about the different factions playing their game of thrones. George, I love ya, but it's time to start moving towards the threat of the Others. When the first chapter of your entire series warns of the threat of these creatures, one would think they're quite important to the main story. So far they've only been seen twice (the Prologue in A Game of Thrones and Sam the Slayer's encounter in A Storm of Swords). But with the book being titled "The Winds of Winter", I have hope that they'll finally be a prominant part of the story.
  • I'm a Stannis guy. Yeah, part of it has to do with that one Mafia game, but I honestly enjoy his character and his interactions with others. But I mostly like him because he's the ugly ducking of the series. No one likes him, including George (You give Aeron Greyjoy a POV chapter... but not Stannis? *clenches jaw*). The story is becoming more and more about Tyrion, Jon (who's about as dead as I am), and Daenerys. Stannis has always been on the fringes of the story's development, and that mysteriousness is endearing. Yeah, we all know he's going to bite the dust sooner or later... but until then, Stannis is my guy.
  • He's a great author no doubt, but his style of writing makes it very difficult to be emotionally invested in these characters. I think he botched Eddard's death by making Arya the POV character during that sequence (it should have been his chapter imo). The Red Wedding was a great change of pace (and remains my favorite sequence in the series thus far), but other than that... people rise up, people fall, people die (unless you have a Red Priest with you), the world goes on. I got emotional only once... and that was when Lady was killed by Eddard way back in AGoT. George has the ability to shock the reader, that much is for certain, but I'd like to see some emotionality.
  • The Stark sisters have become quite dull as of late. Hopefully their respective story arcs will return to main storyline soon. As of now, they're side stories at best.
  • I just don't like Daenerys as a character. I don't know what it is about her... but she's the last person I want on the Iron Throne. Maybe it's my "root-for-the-underdog" perspective (since she's written as the obvious front-runner for the series thus far. Jon's not far behind and Tyrion is working himself up there. Everyone else is either cannon fodder or a Na'vi.*). Also, I just don't like the Targaryens. Despite being ruled by a mad-man, most everyone in the novels (including George himself) has been romanticising them as of late. I'd much rather see a Wolf or a Stag on the throne. But we know that's not gonna happen. At this point the throne is a good as hers.
  • I still can't get over how average A Feast for Crows was.
  • *Anyone else saw the resemblance? A group of people (Children of the Forest/Green-Seers) that connect with trees and transfer their consciousness when they die? Thought that was pretty funny.

Anyways. Looking forward to The Winds of Winter. Also, a shout out to Kantor for always bugging me to start the series. ^_~

I'm interested in finding out more about the others as well.  It almost seems like he is starting to throw out some robert jordan type of strategies as far as delaying the plot.  Just get to it already

I have always hated Sansa as a character,  drives me nuts anytime I see female characters portrayed in such a weak manner.  Arya, on the other hand, I have always enjoyed.  I just have no idea how she is in any way relevant to the main story anymore...

I really like daenerys for the first few books.  Her character went downhill when she started taking over the slave states.  She is a terrible ruler... which I think is the point.  She is supposed to make mistakes and be terrible as a ruler so that she can learn from it and actually develop into a competent person by the time she makes it to Westeros... I just don't understand why... I mean, she seemed to be pretty good leader when she initially took her outcasts into the wasteland...  Her story strikes me as one of the worst delay tactics from Martin.  It is obvious she is going to come back to the throne in Westeros, but Martin needs her to be doing something and it ended up ruining her character...

Feast of crows was just bad, IMO.  For some reason Martin thought it would be better to expand half of the novel he had planned to write and add another book to the series... It just ended up with a bad result...



Smeags said:

Completed the five books in 22 days.

DAAAY-UM!!!

 

Agreed about AFFC, though. It was a letdown, as was most of the Essos chapters in Dance with Dragons.

Kantor said:

I don't like Daenerys either. She sends away one of only two people who actually cares about her, and ignores the other in favour of the Harpy and a bunch of other corrupt courtiers. She forces herself upon Meereen when they all clearly despise her and want her to go away. She just generally acts like a spoilt and immature child, and I wouldn't want to see her anywhere near the Iron Throne.

While I'm also not a Daenerys fan (her chapters are generally boring, although there are some noticeable exceptions), I have to point out that the people of Mereen didn't despise her from the start, only its ruling class did. That's a rather notable difference.



So... let's discuss how things could start up in The Winds of Winter:

  • Stannis: Ramsey Bolton's letter is mostly a farce. While it's obvious that he does have Mance Rayder (how else could he know who he is?), there's no way he's battled/killed Stannis' army yet. Too many important happenings have taken place for that to happen.
    • One, the letter states that he still doesn't have Jeyne, who was last seen with Stannis' host.
    • Two, you have two POV characters (Theon and Asha), who George wouldn't have killed off.
    • Three, the arrival of the banker with Asha's men is Stannis' ace in the hole. They came from Deepwood Motte, where the raven was sent from the wall warning them that the Karstarks were on the Bolton's side. By now Stannis knows of their trechery and has either already killed them or has taken them captive.
    • Four, from what I've read, this stuff has already been revealed by George himself... so... yeah.
  • Jon Snow: I think Jon is dead. But have no fear... Melisandre is here! A few knife stabs? Ha. Unlike Catelyn Stark (what was Dondarrion thinking?), he'll be revived as good as new. This accomplishes an important task: Jon Snow is no longer tied to the Night's Watch (he died and was released from it's service). I do think he's the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna... therefore is part of the "three-headed dragon" that is talked about so much.
  • Brienne/Jaime: Brienne is taking Jaime to Lady Stoneheart, but I'm curious to know why. Catelyn is almost assuredly going to have him hanged, and Brienne betraying Jaime for the noose is quite out of character. I'm curious to see how this is going to go down.
  • Sansa: More plotting by Littlefinger... at this point, the best possible outcome is for her to avenger her father by killing him (whether it's knowingly or unknowingly...). I'm tired of Littlefinger, and his story-arc, no matter how grand his schemes are, seems unconsequential compared to everything else that is happening now.
  • Arya: Going to be trained to become a faceless man. The most interesting thing about her story arc is her battle of her identity. I know we're all rooting for her to recognize herself as a Stark/Warg and not a Bravossi assassin. Other than that, she seems inconsequential to the plot. I hope that changes soon. Essos is boring, come back to Westeros!
  • Davos: I really like him as a character, but I'm not sure what to expect on his journey to find Rickon. Still, it'll be nice to see Osha again. Hopefully Shaggydog will be nice...
  • Cersei: Continues to lose it. What else is new?
  • Samwell: I'm not sure what he's supposed to do down there in oldtown. "Hey Sam, the Others could be at the wall any night now, but go down and train to be a maester for a few years!". There are a couple of interesting subplots down there.
    • The Citadel seems to not be a fan of the return of magic. We've heard multiple characters start to speak on the conspiracy of the Citadel's influence across Westeros and their distaste for magic.
    • Jaquen H'gar. He was the alchemist that killed Pate and he is either him now or had someone else take his place. What's so important in the Citadel that we should care? I guess we'll find out soon enough.
  • Daenerys: Well, she can have periods again! Yay! What does this mean? I really... I really don't care about her. I'm sure she'll have a lot of chapters in WoW though. Hooray!
  • Dorishmen: How many Dornishmen does it take for me to be interested in what they bring to this series? *shrugs*
  • Victarion: Obviously the horn has some power, and obviously the mute woman who Euron gave him will kill him when he tries to take Daenerys as his own (as Vicarion said, Euron's gifts are poisoned.)
  • Other Ironmen: Somehow George made both Asha and Theon interesting! A miracle! :P I have no idea what they're going to do, but I'm actually interested to find out.
  • Bran: Creeping on people through trees. *shrugs*
  • Tyrion: Almost forgot about him! Well... he's going to use his cunning to stay alive and make you root for him. Same ol' same ol'.
  • Everyone else: Meh!


Smeags said:

So... let's discuss how things could start up in The Winds of Winter:

  • Stannis: Ramsey Bolton's letter is mostly a farce. While it's obvious that he does have Mance Rayder (how else could he know who he is?), there's no way he's battled/killed Stannis' army yet. Too many important happenings have taken place for that to happen.
    • One, the letter states that he still doesn't have Jeyne, who was last seen with Stannis' host.
    • Two, you have two POV characters (Theon and Asha), who George wouldn't have killed off.
    • Three, the arrival of the banker with Asha's men is Stannis' ace in the hole. They came from Deepwood Motte, where the raven was sent from the wall warning them that the Karstarks were on the Bolton's side. By now Stannis knows of their trechery and has either already killed them or has taken them captive.
    • Four, from what I've read, this stuff has already been revealed by George himself... so... yeah.
  • Jon Snow: I think Jon is dead. But have no fear... Melisandre is here! A few knife stabs? Ha. Unlike Catelyn Stark (what was Dondarrion thinking?), he'll be revived as good as new. This accomplishes an important task: Jon Snow is no longer tied to the Night's Watch (he died and was released from it's service). I do think he's the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna... therefore is part of the "three-headed dragon" that is talked about so much.
  • Brienne/Jaime: Brienne is taking Jaime to Lady Stoneheart, but I'm curious to know why. Catelyn is almost assuredly going to have him hanged, and Brienne betraying Jaime for the noose is quite out of character. I'm curious to see how this is going to go down.
  • Sansa: More plotting by Littlefinger... at this point, the best possible outcome is for her to avenger her father by killing him (whether it's knowingly or unknowingly...). I'm tired of Littlefinger, and his story-arc, no matter how grand his schemes are, seems unconsequential compared to everything else that is happening now.
  • Arya: Going to be trained to become a faceless man. The most interesting thing about her story arc is her battle of her identity. I know we're all rooting for her to recognize herself as a Stark/Warg and not a Bravossi assassin. Other than that, she seems inconsequential to the plot. I hope that changes soon. Essos is boring, come back to Westeros!
  • Davos: I really like him as a character, but I'm not sure what to expect on his journey to find Rickon. Still, it'll be nice to see Osha again. Hopefully Shaggydog will be nice...
  • Cersei: Continues to lose it. What else is new?
  • Samwell: I'm not sure what he's supposed to do down there in oldtown. "Hey Sam, the Others could be at the wall any night now, but go down and train to be a maester for a few years!". There are a couple of interesting subplots down there.
    • The Citadel seems to not be a fan of the return of magic. We've heard multiple characters start to speak on the conspiracy of the Citadel's influence across Westeros and their distaste for magic.
    • Jaquen H'gar. He was the alchemist that killed Pate and he is either him now or had someone else take his place. What's so important in the Citadel that we should care? I guess we'll find out soon enough.
  • Daenerys: Well, she can have periods again! Yay! What does this mean? I really... I really don't care about her. I'm sure she'll have a lot of chapters in WoW though. Hooray!
  • Dorishmen: How many Dornishmen does it take for me to be interested in what they bring to this series? *shrugs*
  • Victarion: Obviously the horn has some power, and obviously the mute woman who Euron gave him will kill him when he tries to take Daenerys as his own (as Vicarion said, Euron's gifts are poisoned.)
  • Other Ironmen: Somehow George made both Asha and Theon interesting! A miracle! :P I have no idea what they're going to do, but I'm actually interested to find out.
  • Bran: Creeping on people through trees. *shrugs*
  • Tyrion: Almost forgot about him! Well... he's going to use his cunning to stay alive and make you root for him. Same ol' same ol'.
  • Everyone else: Meh!

Cheater!

I pretty much agree on everything regarding Stannis and his army, especially since it was made equally clear that the Boltons' army was not exactly cohesive or prepared itself. I have heard the interesting theory though that the letter came from Melisandre, as an attempt to goad Jon from leaving the Wall and doing his duty. I'm not completely sold, but then again Melisandre is the only other person who knows about Mance (in fact, I can see Mance keeping his mouth shut even after being captured).

As for what Dondarrion was thinking, it was probably something along the lines of "I've had more than enough already, thank you" combined with "I never asked these assholes to bring me back...and back...and back...").

I'm not sure how up to date you are on the original plan, but part of why I think the Sam/Sansa/Arya storylines don't seem to be going anywhere is that Martin originally planned to skip ahead five years after Storm of Swords, with the details of those five years getting filled in via flashbacks etc. Abandoning that plan has thrown a real wrench in the works, I think, which is how I explain Feast being such a meandering novel.



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noname2200 said:

Cheater!

I pretty much agree on everything regarding Stannis and his army, especially since it was made equally clear that the Boltons' army was not exactly cohesive or prepared itself. I have heard the interesting theory though that the letter came from Melisandre, as an attempt to goad Jon from leaving the Wall and doing his duty. I'm not completely sold, but then again Melisandre is the only other person who knows about Mance (in fact, I can see Mance keeping his mouth shut even after being captured).

As for what Dondarrion was thinking, it was probably something along the lines of "I've had more than enough already, thank you" combined with "I never asked these assholes to bring me back...and back...and back...").

I'm not sure how up to date you are on the original plan, but part of why I think the Sam/Sansa/Arya storylines don't seem to be going anywhere is that Martin originally planned to skip ahead five years after Storm of Swords, with the details of those five years getting filled in via flashbacks etc. Abandoning that plan has thrown a real wrench in the works, I think, which is how I explain Feast being such a meandering novel.

Well I knew that the series was originally going to be a trilogy... but other than that I know nothing (Poor Ygritte ).

Your explanation for the letter is interesting though, and I agree with you that Mance revealing himself was an odd move for his character. Nice thought!



Smeags said:

So... let's discuss how things could start up in The Winds of Winter:

  • Stannis: Ramsey Bolton's letter is mostly a farce. While it's obvious that he does have Mance Rayder (how else could he know who he is?), there's no way he's battled/killed Stannis' army yet. Too many important happenings have taken place for that to happen.
    • One, the letter states that he still doesn't have Jeyne, who was last seen with Stannis' host.
    • Two, you have two POV characters (Theon and Asha), who George wouldn't have killed off.
    • Three, the arrival of the banker with Asha's men is Stannis' ace in the hole. They came from Deepwood Motte, where the raven was sent from the wall warning them that the Karstarks were on the Bolton's side. By now Stannis knows of their trechery and has either already killed them or has taken them captive.
    • Four, from what I've read, this stuff has already been revealed by George himself... so... yeah.
  • Jon Snow: I think Jon is dead. But have no fear... Melisandre is here! A few knife stabs? Ha. Unlike Catelyn Stark (what was Dondarrion thinking?), he'll be revived as good as new. This accomplishes an important task: Jon Snow is no longer tied to the Night's Watch (he died and was released from it's service). I do think he's the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna... therefore is part of the "three-headed dragon" that is talked about so much.
  • Brienne/Jaime: Brienne is taking Jaime to Lady Stoneheart, but I'm curious to know why. Catelyn is almost assuredly going to have him hanged, and Brienne betraying Jaime for the noose is quite out of character. I'm curious to see how this is going to go down.
  • Sansa: More plotting by Littlefinger... at this point, the best possible outcome is for her to avenger her father by killing him (whether it's knowingly or unknowingly...). I'm tired of Littlefinger, and his story-arc, no matter how grand his schemes are, seems unconsequential compared to everything else that is happening now.
  • Arya: Going to be trained to become a faceless man. The most interesting thing about her story arc is her battle of her identity. I know we're all rooting for her to recognize herself as a Stark/Warg and not a Bravossi assassin. Other than that, she seems inconsequential to the plot. I hope that changes soon. Essos is boring, come back to Westeros!
  • Davos: I really like him as a character, but I'm not sure what to expect on his journey to find Rickon. Still, it'll be nice to see Osha again. Hopefully Shaggydog will be nice...
  • Cersei: Continues to lose it. What else is new?
  • Samwell: I'm not sure what he's supposed to do down there in oldtown. "Hey Sam, the Others could be at the wall any night now, but go down and train to be a maester for a few years!". There are a couple of interesting subplots down there.
    • The Citadel seems to not be a fan of the return of magic. We've heard multiple characters start to speak on the conspiracy of the Citadel's influence across Westeros and their distaste for magic.
    • Jaquen H'gar. He was the alchemist that killed Pate and he is either him now or had someone else take his place. What's so important in the Citadel that we should care? I guess we'll find out soon enough.
  • Daenerys: Well, she can have periods again! Yay! What does this mean? I really... I really don't care about her. I'm sure she'll have a lot of chapters in WoW though. Hooray!
  • Dorishmen: How many Dornishmen does it take for me to be interested in what they bring to this series? *shrugs*
  • Victarion: Obviously the horn has some power, and obviously the mute woman who Euron gave him will kill him when he tries to take Daenerys as his own (as Vicarion said, Euron's gifts are poisoned.)
  • Other Ironmen: Somehow George made both Asha and Theon interesting! A miracle! :P I have no idea what they're going to do, but I'm actually interested to find out.
  • Bran: Creeping on people through trees. *shrugs*
  • Tyrion: Almost forgot about him! Well... he's going to use his cunning to stay alive and make you root for him. Same ol' same ol'.
  • Everyone else: Meh!

Theon's chapter from Winds of Winter makes it almost certain that Ramsay Bolton's letter was fictional, because Stannis is alive and well.

I'm with you 100% on Jon Snow.

I don't think Jaime will be hanged by Lady Stoneheart. She will see how he has changed, and he will be allowed to live. He'll probably join the Brotherhood without Banners. Maybe Thoros will heal his hand.

Sansa could well marry Harry the Heir, but that seems too obvious. Littlefinger really needs to be off in King's Landing with everything that's about to go down, so I don't know why he's still up at the Eyrie.

I think Arya will be assigned to carry out a kill of somebody she likes, and will refuse to do so, go reclaim Needle, and finish off her list somehow.

Maybe Davos will find that Rickon has been in a time warp and is now an adult. Otherwise I don't see him being a terribly important character, except as Stannis' claim to the North.

Cersei will probably win her trial, only to be killed by somebody's little brother.

Samwell will probably start to learn about magic and dragons, and perhaps he'll pick up a thing or two about Old Valyria. Maybe he'll pay it a visit. I'm not sure what Jaqen is doing there, but notice that he went to the Wall when that was Samwell's destination and the Citadel when Samwell headed there. Though if someone wanted Samwell dead, they would have done the deed in Braavos itself.

Daenerys bearing a living child would be interesting. That comes close to the accidental prophecy of Mirri Maz Duur involving Drogo's rebirth: the sun (Quentyn) rises in the west and sets in the east, mountains blow in the wind (probably a reference to Gregor/Ser Robert Strong) and the seas run dry (she is in the Dothraki Sea). Otherwise, she needs to grab her dragons and get to Westeros, stat. Perhaps via Asshai?

The Dornishmen are going to greatly strengthen Prince Aegon, but yeah, they kind of suck.

Victarion: Perhaps he'll try to claim a dragon and be burned to death.

Theon should die killing Ramsay, Asha should usurp the Iron Islands from Euron.

Bran can find out something about the original war with the Others, and the Night King and Azor Ahai and such.

Tyrion will do nothing useful unless he gets the hell back to Casterly Rock, which is quickly running out of semi-competent people to run it.

Sandor is, of course, still alive, and has probably been through some sort of spiritual cleansing.

Nobody cares about Edmure.

Varys will disguise himself as someone on the Small Council and keep watching over King's Landing, or as one of Aegon's soldiers.

And I think that's everyone.

 

 



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Kantor said:

I don't think Jaime will be hanged by Lady Stoneheart. She will see how he has changed, and he will be allowed to live. He'll probably join the Brotherhood without Banners. Maybe Thoros will heal his hand.

Wait, you're thinking Catelyn Stark is going to show reason, mercy, and understanding?  Weren't you teasing someone for their naivete earlier in this thread?



noname2200 said:

Wait, you're thinking Catelyn Stark is going to show reason, mercy, and understanding?  Weren't you teasing someone for their naivete earlier in this thread?

1. Brienne and Jaime are pretty adorable when they're together. And they're always dreaming about each other. D'awwww. Despite her effort to kill me with boredom in A Feast for Crows, I've come to like both characters.

2. Isn't Jaime the younger twin? Hmmmm...



noname2200 said:
Kantor said:

I don't think Jaime will be hanged by Lady Stoneheart. She will see how he has changed, and he will be allowed to live. He'll probably join the Brotherhood without Banners. Maybe Thoros will heal his hand.

Wait, you're thinking Catelyn Stark is going to show reason, mercy, and understanding?  Weren't you teasing someone for their naivete earlier in this thread?

I think we all occasionally fall prey to the silly idea that this is going to have a lovely fairytale ending.

However: though GRRM kills off quite a few characters, the main characters who die do so for important reasons, and their deaths have far-reaching consequences. A crippled member of a rapidly dying dynasty being hanged by a crazy zombie lady doesn't really qualify for that.

Maybe he'll kill Catelyn instead. I'd be cool with that.



(Former) Lead Moderator and (Eternal) VGC Detective