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Forums - General Discussion - The Official Song of Ice and Fire Thread [UNMARKED SPOILERS FOR ALL BOOKS]

haxxiy said:
Munkeh111 said:

Is there actaully any evidence for that rather than fans just wishing, especially after how great he was in the tv series

I like to believe most of the other theories, but I quite want Benjen to turn up, I need some closure after they have spent so long talking about him


Nope, I don't think there is except the fact Syrio was a badass and nobody commented about him after than, neither we have seen his body :/

On the other hand, it was revealed that Aerys had the hots for Tywin's wife on ADWD, not to mention his dragon dreams, so who knows about that even more awesome theory haha.

I much prefer the theory that, if Aerys impregnated Joanna, it was with Jaime and Cersei rather than Tyrion.

Think of how much more similar Tywin is to Tyrion (the astute, sarcastic, competent, midas-touched whore-lover) than to Jaime the aloof knight, and Cersei the incompetent bumbler. Not to mention they certainly have the Targaryen penchant for incest. And it would be a nice irony if the one man Tywin hates most in the world is his only trueborn son.



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Trunkin said:
gergroy said:

Yeah, lyanna and raegar are his parents, im pretty sure.  Also, lyanna seems to have been in love with raegar and as such it seems that robert baratheon was actually a bit of a villain.  It is true that raegars father was mad and probably needed to be put down, but everything about raegar seems to suggest he was a good and honorable man.  I think the one act that doomed the targaryen rule is when the mad king killed ned starks older brother.  That one act put the majority of the kingdom against him.

Tyrion did lose a lot of his appeal in dance.  The whole circus act seemed incredibly out of character for him, which i guess was the point, but it was very uniteresting to read.  

What do you guys think is going to happen with brand stark?  


The Mad King deserved a worse fate than he suffered, but it's a shame Raegar had to die as well; he seemed like he would have made a far better king than Robert did.

I didn't have much to back this up, but while reading the books I had always assumed that the Others were the Children of the Forest. Though my little pet theory was debunked by Dance, I still have a gut feeling that the Children and the three eyed crow(Brynden Rivers?) are closely related to the Others. I've always found it strange that in a series such as ASOIF where there is supposedly no black and white there could be a fundimentally "black" entity such as the Others. There's got to be some sort of justification, some reason, behind their deeds.

That's where I think Bran comes in. My guess is that he's going to be the POV through which we learn more about the Others. Perhaps he'll even join their side in the end. The Crow always said that he would fly, and you have to admit that it would be pretty cool to see Bran seize control of Dany's dragons and turn them against her. Ah, drama.

Unfortunately the TV show has made them appear irredeemably evil. Whereas the books describe them as relatively human looking, wearing armour etc. The fact they use zombies as their army kinda puts them beyond merely misunderstood. You could say that the R'hllorites do the same (Dondarrion and Cat being brought back from death) but the big difference is that as far as it looks Dondarrion and Catelyn are both fully self aware including having full memory of their pre-death life, and it's only one or 2 people, not an entire horde.

In a world where people and cultures are various shades of grey it's OK to have the odd person / group be totally black. It's mostly pure as trhe driven snow white that puts a tale into cheesyness.



“The fundamental cause of the trouble is that in the modern world the stupid are cocksure while the intelligent are full of doubt.” - Bertrand Russell

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, the world will know peace."

Jimi Hendrix

 

haxxiy said:
Munkeh111 said:

Is there actaully any evidence for that rather than fans just wishing, especially after how great he was in the tv series

I like to believe most of the other theories, but I quite want Benjen to turn up, I need some closure after they have spent so long talking about him


Nope, I don't think there is except the fact Syrio was a badass and nobody commented about him after than, neither we have seen his body :/

On the other hand, it was revealed that Aerys had the hots for Tywin's wife on ADWD, not to mention his dragon dreams, so who knows about that even more awesome theory haha.

How does a Faceless Man come to be in the dungeons of the Red Keep unless he puts himself there? And that FM just happens to become a guardian angel, so to speak, to Arya. It's possible that Syrio managed to end up surrendering and being taken to the black cells, whence he became Jaqen H'gar and got himself on the convoy to the Wall.

Personally I can't wait to pick back up with Sam to see what's happening in Oldtown and the Citadel.



“The fundamental cause of the trouble is that in the modern world the stupid are cocksure while the intelligent are full of doubt.” - Bertrand Russell

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, the world will know peace."

Jimi Hendrix

 

Kantor said:
KylieDog said:


The TV series has pretty much killed the Jeyne Westerling theory since they swaped her for some random nobody tart, so there goes all the motivation for such a cover up/switch.

Not to mention the absurdity of the King in the North (who follows the Old Gods) and a Volantene (who either follows Rh'llor or one of the minor Essosi religions) saying their vows in front of a septon. That was a mess, but then the entire North is a mess in that show, Jon Snow included.

If it's any consolation George Martin seems pretty pissed at the whole Talissa thing. It was him how pretty much forced them to change her name. They oritginally had her named Jeyne, but GRRM "suggested" the change because they had completely messed around with that storyline. In interviews he seems very keen not to dwell on this change and would rather move on to talk about aspects of the show he's enjoying.

There must be worshippers of the Seven in the East because the Andals brought the Seven so it's not a religion native to Westeros. Talissa's official back story that she pretty much turned her back on her own people makes it plausible that she has adopted the main religion of Westeros, given its anti-slavery stance. Robb would also not be averse to marrying under the Seven given that's the Tully religion. He might be pissed at his mum right now, but that doesn't mean he'd refuse to marry under the Seven if Talissa had adopted the Seven for her own, which is likely.



“The fundamental cause of the trouble is that in the modern world the stupid are cocksure while the intelligent are full of doubt.” - Bertrand Russell

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, the world will know peace."

Jimi Hendrix

 

binary solo said:
haxxiy said:
Munkeh111 said:

Is there actaully any evidence for that rather than fans just wishing, especially after how great he was in the tv series

I like to believe most of the other theories, but I quite want Benjen to turn up, I need some closure after they have spent so long talking about him


Nope, I don't think there is except the fact Syrio was a badass and nobody commented about him after than, neither we have seen his body :/

On the other hand, it was revealed that Aerys had the hots for Tywin's wife on ADWD, not to mention his dragon dreams, so who knows about that even more awesome theory haha.

How does a Faceless Man come to be in the dungeons of the Red Keep unless he puts himself there? And that FM just happens to become a guardian angel, so to speak, to Arya. It's possible that Syrio managed to end up surrendering and being taken to the black cells, whence he became Jaqen H'gar and got himself on the convoy to the Wall.

Personally I can't wait to pick back up with Sam to see what's happening in Oldtown and the Citadel.

Syrio is renowned as a Braavosi blademaster and was clearly known to Eddard beforehand. He's hardly going to entrust his ten year old daughter to a random man of whom he knows absolutely nothing. That is entirely inconsistent with the idea of a Faceless Man who has just temporarily taken an identity.

On top of that, Yoren chooses from the dungeons whilst Eddard is still alive and Syrio is still training Arya.

It is not at all clear what Jaqen was hoping to achieve by lying in a cell in the Red Keep. But it's even less clear what on earth he was achieving by masquerading as a swordfighting teacher. Presumably he was trying to be sent to the Wall, but the moment he's free, he heads to Oldtown instead.

Crackpot theory time: He was meant to kill Jeor Mormont, and when he discovered that Mormont was dead, he accepted a new contract.



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so, as far as the direction I see the series heading. Here are some of my theories.

Jon Snow is an essential character and I was thrown off by what happened at the end of dance. However, I believe that melisandre will end up breathing life back into jon snow. This will tie Jon snow to melisandre while also severing his allegiance to the crows.

Stannis Baratheon will try to rally the north around him and take control of the wall, but will eventually be killed by jon snow, who will end up seizing control of the north.

Sansa will continue to play puppet to little finger for a while, but eventually grow a backbone and either personally kill little finger, or be part of a scheme to kill little finger. End result will be Sansa in charge of the Eyrie. In a perfect position to be married off to consolidate power.

The lanisters power is obviously failing. Cersei lannister is on trial, and Jaime has left her to her fate. She will be tried, but I believe in the end jaime will come back to defend her. His return will be his last noble act, as he will die in her defense, and cersei will soon follow.

With cersei and jaime out of the way, that would leave the tyrells in charge of kings landing. They will fall to dorn when they return following aegon.

When daenerys finally returns, she will confront aegon and he will be proven a false targaryan. A marriage between her and jon snow will unite the kingdoms under one banner, providing a united front against the threat from the north for a final showdown.

Anyway, that is some of my ideas of how things will play out...



gergroy said:
so, as far as the direction I see the series heading. Here are some of my theories.

Jon Snow is an essential character and I was thrown off by what happened at the end of dance. However, I believe that melisandre will end up breathing life back into jon snow. This will tie Jon snow to melisandre while also severing his allegiance to the crows.

Stannis Baratheon will try to rally the north around him and take control of the wall, but will eventually be killed by jon snow, who will end up seizing control of the north.

Sansa will continue to play puppet to little finger for a while, but eventually grow a backbone and either personally kill little finger, or be part of a scheme to kill little finger. End result will be Sansa in charge of the Eyrie. In a perfect position to be married off to consolidate power.

The lanisters power is obviously failing. Cersei lannister is on trial, and Jaime has left her to her fate. She will be tried, but I believe in the end jaime will come back to defend her. His return will be his last noble act, as he will die in her defense, and cersei will soon follow.

With cersei and jaime out of the way, that would leave the tyrells in charge of kings landing. They will fall to dorn when they return following aegon.

When daenerys finally returns, she will confront aegon and he will be proven a false targaryan. A marriage between her and jon snow will unite the kingdoms under one banner, providing a united front against the threat from the north for a final showdown.

Anyway, that is some of my ideas of how things will play out...

Jon Snow: I agree that he'll be free of his vows, but I don't think he needs to be loyal to Melisandre. It's the other way around. He is Azor Ahai, and she is a red priest; she is obliged to serve him.

Jon killing Stannis is an intriguing idea, but I feel like they get along too well for that. I think Stannis has two likely fates: dying in battle against the Others, or joining them. The second is far more interesting, and I have heard the theory that he is the reincarnation of the Night King, the Great Other's equivalent of Azor Ahai.

I find it hard to envision any scenario in which Littlefinger is outplotted. He is one of the two most cunning men in Westeros, and he's too far out of the way for Varys to care about him at all. Sansa marrying Harry the Heir and seeing him gain the Vale just seems far too happy and cheerful for this series. More likely Harry will end up dead, Sansa will marry someone for love, and go do something useful elsewhere. Littlefinger could just flee to Harrenhal if need be.

Jaime doesn't love Cersei anymore, he despises her, and if he returned to King's Landing he would probably be more likely to wring her neck than fight for her. His redemption will come through Brienne; I think he'll join the Brotherhood without Banners. Besides, Cersei has Ser Robert Strong to fight for her, and he's certainly not going to lose a battle. In the short term, she will have lost all power in King's Landing. And the prophecy dooms her pretty badly. The valonquar who kills her could be Tyrion, or Jaime, or Aegon, or Tommen, or a hundred others. I doubt that it will be Tyrion.

The Tyrells will probably accept Aegon as King thinking they can make a puppet out of him. They will fail at this and, with Varys there, they will conveniently fall off buildings or be hit by stray crossbow bolts.

Daenerys is completely insane. She is also Jon's aunt, and that's disgusting. Not a single powerful lord in all of Westeros would even think of supporting her claim. I imagine she will lose her dragons, go mad, and join the Others. But it's hard to tell this early on.

I think you're being far too optimistic about the prospects of these characters, considering the tone of the series so far. I suppose you thought back in Clash of Kings that Robb would easily march into King's Landing and claim it, creating a happy and peaceful kingdom for all



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Kantor said:
gergroy said:
so, as far as the direction I see the series heading. Here are some of my theories.

Jon Snow is an essential character and I was thrown off by what happened at the end of dance. However, I believe that melisandre will end up breathing life back into jon snow. This will tie Jon snow to melisandre while also severing his allegiance to the crows.

Stannis Baratheon will try to rally the north around him and take control of the wall, but will eventually be killed by jon snow, who will end up seizing control of the north.

Sansa will continue to play puppet to little finger for a while, but eventually grow a backbone and either personally kill little finger, or be part of a scheme to kill little finger. End result will be Sansa in charge of the Eyrie. In a perfect position to be married off to consolidate power.

The lanisters power is obviously failing. Cersei lannister is on trial, and Jaime has left her to her fate. She will be tried, but I believe in the end jaime will come back to defend her. His return will be his last noble act, as he will die in her defense, and cersei will soon follow.

With cersei and jaime out of the way, that would leave the tyrells in charge of kings landing. They will fall to dorn when they return following aegon.

When daenerys finally returns, she will confront aegon and he will be proven a false targaryan. A marriage between her and jon snow will unite the kingdoms under one banner, providing a united front against the threat from the north for a final showdown.

Anyway, that is some of my ideas of how things will play out...

Jon Snow: I agree that he'll be free of his vows, but I don't think he needs to be loyal to Melisandre. It's the other way around. He is Azor Ahai, and she is a red priest; she is obliged to serve him.

Jon killing Stannis is an intriguing idea, but I feel like they get along too well for that. I think Stannis has two likely fates: dying in battle against the Others, or joining them. The second is far more interesting, and I have heard the theory that he is the reincarnation of the Night King, the Great Other's equivalent of Azor Ahai.

I find it hard to envision any scenario in which Littlefinger is outplotted. He is one of the two most cunning men in Westeros, and he's too far out of the way for Varys to care about him at all. Sansa marrying Harry the Heir and seeing him gain the Vale just seems far too happy and cheerful for this series. More likely Harry will end up dead, Sansa will marry someone for love, and go do something useful elsewhere. Littlefinger could just flee to Harrenhal if need be.

Jaime doesn't love Cersei anymore, he despises her, and if he returned to King's Landing he would probably be more likely to wring her neck than fight for her. His redemption will come through Brienne; I think he'll join the Brotherhood without Banners. Besides, Cersei has Ser Robert Strong to fight for her, and he's certainly not going to lose a battle. In the short term, she will have lost all power in King's Landing. And the prophecy dooms her pretty badly. The valonquar who kills her could be Tyrion, or Jaime, or Aegon, or Tommen, or a hundred others. I doubt that it will be Tyrion.

The Tyrells will probably accept Aegon as King thinking they can make a puppet out of him. They will fail at this and, with Varys there, they will conveniently fall off buildings or be hit by stray crossbow bolts.

Daenerys is completely insane. She is also Jon's aunt, and that's disgusting. Not a single powerful lord in all of Westeros would even think of supporting her claim. I imagine she will lose her dragons, go mad, and join the Others. But it's hard to tell this early on.

I think you're being far too optimistic about the prospects of these characters, considering the tone of the series so far. I suppose you thought back in Clash of Kings that Robb would easily march into King's Landing and claim it, creating a happy and peaceful kingdom for all

I agree melisandre will end up serving Jon, but I think in the short term it will be the other way around until Jon ends up confronting stannis.  Stannis could be struck down by something else, and the idea of him becoming an other is interesting and probably fairly likely.  Honestly, before this series is done I see most of the characters becoming others.  

Jon and Stannis get along because they are both men with a strong sense of duty.  I think in the end that sense of duty will end up pitting the two against each other.  

Littlefinger is incredibly devious, but he has a weak spot for sansa's mother that he seems to have transferred onto stansa.  Littlefinger will be undone before the series is over, and I see his death as something meaningful that Sansa could accomplish or help accomplish.  Otherwise, I just see her whole plot thread being a waste of time.  She is a terrible character, so I wouldn't be surprised if she doesn't do anything meaningful, but I'm hopeful that she does.  

I agree Jaime doesn't love cersei, but I think he will be talked into returning, possibly by brienne.  The only reason I think this is the vision that jaime had.  I don't remember it very well, but he had a vision of how staying close to cersei would end in his death.  Maybe I should go reread that passage, but it remember thinking at the time that this was a forshadowing of how he and cersei would die.  

I still think the Tyrells will end up opposing Aegon because they already have the thrown, essentially.  

The Targaryans would always marry their siblings and yes it is disgusting, but it completely fits the fiction.  I honestly don't see her dragons dying, at least not all of them, because the dragons seem to represent the opposite side of what the others represent.  

I might be a bit optimistic, but considering how most of these predictions are about people dying, it is kind of crazy that my predictions are optimistic

Also, I have no idea where Arya stark's plot thread is going.  I enjoy her character, but I have no ideas of where she will end up. 



Completed the five books in 22 days. Excellent series (with the exception of A Feast for Crows, which read like some fan-fiction side story. I have no idea what George R.R. Martin was thinking when he was writing that book. Thankfully he was back on form with A Dance with Dragons.) and it looks like things are going to get into high gear with The Winds of Winter. Looking forward to it.

Some thoughts...

  • I've read over 5,000 pages about the different factions playing their game of thrones. George, I love ya, but it's time to start moving towards the threat of the Others. When the first chapter of your entire series warns of the threat of these creatures, one would think they're quite important to the main story. So far they've only been seen twice (the Prologue in A Game of Thrones and Sam the Slayer's encounter in A Storm of Swords). But with the book being titled "The Winds of Winter", I have hope that they'll finally be a prominant part of the story.
  • I'm a Stannis guy. Yeah, part of it has to do with that one Mafia game, but I honestly enjoy his character and his interactions with others. But I mostly like him because he's the ugly ducking of the series. No one likes him, including George (You give Aeron Greyjoy a POV chapter... but not Stannis? *clenches jaw*). The story is becoming more and more about Tyrion, Jon (who's about as dead as I am), and Daenerys. Stannis has always been on the fringes of the story's development, and that mysteriousness is endearing. Yeah, we all know he's going to bite the dust sooner or later... but until then, Stannis is my guy.
  • He's a great author no doubt, but his style of writing makes it very difficult to be emotionally invested in these characters. I think he botched Eddard's death by making Arya the POV character during that sequence (it should have been his chapter imo). The Red Wedding was a great change of pace (and remains my favorite sequence in the series thus far), but other than that... people rise up, people fall, people die (unless you have a Red Priest with you), the world goes on. I got emotional only once... and that was when Lady was killed by Eddard way back in AGoT. George has the ability to shock the reader, that much is for certain, but I'd like to see some emotionality.
  • The Stark sisters have become quite dull as of late. Hopefully their respective story arcs will return to main storyline soon. As of now, they're side stories at best.
  • I just don't like Daenerys as a character. I don't know what it is about her... but she's the last person I want on the Iron Throne. Maybe it's my "root-for-the-underdog" perspective (since she's written as the obvious front-runner for the series thus far. Jon's not far behind and Tyrion is working himself up there. Everyone else is either cannon fodder or a Na'vi.*). Also, I just don't like the Targaryens. Despite being ruled by a mad-man, most everyone in the novels (including George himself) has been romanticising them as of late. I'd much rather see a Wolf or a Stag on the throne. But we know that's not gonna happen. At this point the throne is a good as hers.
  • I still can't get over how average A Feast for Crows was.
  • *Anyone else saw the resemblance? A group of people (Children of the Forest/Green-Seers) that connect with trees and transfer their consciousness when they die? Thought that was pretty funny.

Anyways. Looking forward to The Winds of Winter. Also, a shout out to Kantor for always bugging me to start the series. ^_~



Smeags said:

 

  • The Stark sisters have become quite dull as of late. Hopefully their respective story arcs will return to main storyline soon. As of now, they're side stories at best.
  • I just don't like Daenerys as a character. I don't know what it is about her... but she's the last person I want on the Iron Throne. Maybe it's my "root-for-the-underdog" perspective (since she's written as the obvious front-runner for the series thus far. Jon's not far behind and Tyrion is working himself up there. Everyone else is either cannon fodder or a Na'vi.*). Also, I just don't like the Targaryens. Despite being ruled by a mad-man, most everyone in the novels (including George himself) has been romanticising them as of late. I'd much rather see a Wolf or a Stag on the throne. But we know that's not gonna happen. At this point the throne is a good as hers.

Anyways. Looking forward to The Winds of Winter. Also, a shout out to Kantor for always bugging me to start the series. ^_~

I'm just glad you enjoyed it

As for the Starks: Sansa has a pretty significant fanbase for some reason even though she has achieved literally nothing except getting tossed around by various people and occasionally throwing a tantrum. But hey, her POV lets us see Littlefinger, so I'm happy. Arya is great, but I agree with you that her story has become a bit of a sidestory. She might head back to Westeros to complete her list at some point.

I don't like Daenerys either. She sends away one of only two people who actually cares about her, and ignores the other in favour of the Harpy and a bunch of other corrupt courtiers. She forces herself upon Meereen when they all clearly despise her and want her to go away. She just generally acts like a spoilt and immature child, and I wouldn't want to see her anywhere near the Iron Throne.

I feel like Stannis would do some good with the throne. Aegon could be great or crazy (two sides of the same coin). Euron would be positively awful.



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