Although I have yet to play Medal of Honour, at this point I am not yet satisfied with Wii fps controls. In particular I often find the Wiimote too responsive making it difficult to keep the screen steady.

I do like how in Resident Evil 4, aiming control is independent of viewpoint control. This is more realistic IMO and is something I'd like to see more of. The only problem is the lack of buttons on the Wiimote. Perhaps a headset peripheral that tracks head movement which would free up the wiimote and nunchuck for movement and aiming controls.

ROFL ben..



"grand piano is better than a kid's Casio keyboard.

Like a musical instrument, the computer keyboard takes practice"

fkusumot said: The "turning rate" issue is entirely a coding issue. For some reason Retro didn't want gamers to be able to turn faster. It would have been interesting if they had included an option to increase turning speed (but they didn't). So the rate of turn being too slow is a fault of MP3/Retro, not a fault of the WiiMote. Good read.

Nono, you misunderstand me, I LIKE the turning rate that MP3 offers, anything faster and it would feel almost over sensitive, but adding in that snap ablity I mentioned would allow you to suplement the smooth slower turning motion with a faster boost for those cases where you need quick turns to the left, right, or behind.

And also, I was pointing out that this was a development issue, not an issue with the wiimote, hence the wiimote is not at perfection YET.

BenKenobi88 said: A grand piano is better than a kid's Casio keyboard. Like a musical instrument, the computer keyboard takes practice, but after holding my fingers in the WSAD position for years, I can say my fingers slipping is not really an issue, and the sheer number of keys available to map to a game makes it much, much better than a gamepad to me. It might not be the best control option for beginners, but the combination of a keyboard for body movement and a mouse for looking and aiming, I have yet to find anything better...unless someone puts an analog stick or rudder on a keyboard, which would allow for adjustable walking, running speed...but that's not very essential. I am not trying to be a fanboy, I truly believe that a keyboard and mouse are the most versatile, accurate, fast, and customizable control options available. Turning speed with a mouse is never a problem for me, moving up or down relative to the mouse's position has never bothered me, and while a nunchuck is more comfortable to hold than a keyboard, it has all of 2 buttons, a joystick and motion controls...which can only get you so far. You can play Valve games with a gamepad, or a gamepad+mouse, it's in the control options. Console gamers might prefer it. But I submit that most that hate keyboard+mouse hate it because they are not used to it. Once you get used it, you'll find that nothing on the market today can beat it.

I know I'm picking apart your post a bit, but I do need to point out that those adjustable running speeds can make a huge difference, and you are limiting the use of motion controls, both in terms of versatility and ingenuity. While the nunchuck may not have 50 keys to worry about, much of your issue can be addressed by combining motion controls with one or more buttons being pressed at the same time, not to mention a slightly tweaked gui so that some of the buttons are on screen, as well as combining some of the less used options into navigatable menues. In order to be able to say that this honestly gives the keyboard an advantage, the game you're playing would require a solid 50+ different commands that are used REGULARLY and in short notice throughout gameplay.

This isn't even mentioning the fact that the Wiimote generally has quite a few more buttons than your standard mouse. Sure, you may not feel as comfortable with how they're positioned, but "once you get used to it, there are no problems. Oh, and it only took me a couple weeks to get used to the Wiimote, not a couple of years. Sometimes when something takes a lot of time to master, it's just because it's really difficult to use, not because it works better than the other.

I'll also point out that you said yourself that a nunchuck would be more comfortable to hold, and I'm pointing out that comfort can be a big issue, esspecially in when you've been playing for multiple hours. I don't have to take rests to work the cramps out of my hands. I'm sure there are quite a few other PC gamers who have held their hands in the wasd position for years, yet still don't like it at all.

And yes, I've played the Valve games using the controller+mouse movement, and that is actually how I formed this opinion piece on why the Wiimote is more comfortable. I also attempted to turn on the controller options, but when I did that, it refused to let me used the left analog stick for strafing, which made it impossible to use that method to combine it with the mouse. Please keep in mind, I'm not saying that mouse+keyboard have somehow fallen below analog FPS, cause analog FPS is the bane of my existence, and is most of why I've been constantly at odds with those types of games all these years. I still look back and wonder how the hell I managed to survive playing Ocarina of Time and Majora's mask when I had to use a control stick to aim the bow and hookshot.

 

I'll concede your point as A reason for why the keyboard and mouse could be considered better, but I'm afraid I just don't see it as being a terribly effective one.

also, the casio keyboard comment was just a bit over the top :P

I enjoy the Wiimote. It's fun. I play MoH:H2, and MP3, and I have just as much fun with that control set up as I do with mouse and keyboard, and much more fun than with dual analog, but more effective? No, not even close. It's still fun, but the Wiimote and Nunchuk are nowhere near as effective as a mouse and keyboard (and much more effective than dual analog).

Sorry Grey, but your opinion is really void as you aren't someone who uses both on a consistent basis, where as Ben and I are. We both play Wii and PC games very often. I like playing FPS games on the Wii, and I'm looking forward to more, better designed, FPS games on the Wii (that don't have WII themes), but it's just not up to that level of precision.

the main problem with using the wiimote to look around is the integration that's done for turning. With the mouse, the movement you make with your hand is directly correlated with the movement your character makes. With the wiimote, the movement is integrated in order to control the movement. This adds a level of abstraction which makes the movement not as precise. It's much harder to aim at a specific point in MP3, and turning is too slow, while increasing the speed would make it much more difficult to control.

The only reason MP3 is as playable as it is, it because of the lock on option.

I'm with BenKenobi88 & omgwtfbbq2.

The wiimote is not as accurate as a mouse (or a lightgun). That is not a coding issue, it is a hardware issue. The infrared camera in the wiimote simply doesn't have the same degree of precision.

And a keyboard is better because more keys = more options. It's that simple.

After all it's right, that the keyboard/mouse combo is more precise to many people who are used to it, but with some training your wiimote aiming can be as accurate as with a mouse. There are just some things that should be remembered.
-Mouse aiming takes training too. I remember the jump from the old FPS, which I just played with keyboard to the mouse look control. It took me some time to get used to it, not long after all, but the same is with the wiimote. It's another control-sheme, kind of new and it implies some work to get used to it.
-MP3 is just the beginning. The FPSs will become a lot more sensitive in a good (and in some maybe in a bad) way. Devs need some time to work out the perfect control sheme. Try playing ROTT or even Duke3d in comparison with today...
-The Wii offers FPS to a complete new group of people: the left-handed. I know many, who just can't play with keyboard/mouse and with gampad also. Even if they map the buttons, they most often don't have the possibilities like wasd players, so the more buttons-more options argument is only partly correct. I know, many left-handed can play awesome too but there are also many, who just can't get used to the buttons.
-About mapping. You don't need a whole keyboard for any game (maybe 0.1% could use every button) so the most important "could" fit on the wiimote/nunchuk, but it doesn't have to stop there. First off you could use double mapping, so i.e. pressing the Z-Button and the A makes something different than A alone. And if that's still not enough there would be the easy and in my eyes good way of screen-chosing, so pressing a button, freezes the game and let you choose different abilities, i.e. flashlight, gadgets, whatever. This could even be used in fast Multiplayer-sessions once you know where the switch is on the screen it takes you not much longer then a keyboard press. The possibilities are availlable.

In the end I have to largely disagree with omg... I played big parts of MP3 without lock-on, it's definitively playable, the lock-on just makes it easier.

After all we're far from being able to tell, which control sheme is better, and I guess we never will because everyone will feel it different. Atm, keyboard/mouse is better, I have to agree, but we don't know, how games will develop. But I guess we can agree, that it is a lot of fun with the Mote and much better than with Gamepads. Just don't judge the first wave of FPS; we didn't either on first wave of PC-ones. We will see, how effective it will become, I can see the potential :)

SeriousWB said: I was thinking the same idea but the opposite on the nunchuk BrainBox. Using the control stick to turn and move, and tilting the nunchuck to strafe. I'd like to try them both out to be honest, in fact I'd love to just experiment.

I believe I was the first to post that here [even though I may not have thought of it before you] I also guess you are a Goldeneye man, because I too vastly prefer turning and forward/back to be on one stick [strafe and look up/down on a different stick/buttons] I outlined a full FPS scheme [along with other genre schemes] I would like in a thread about a week ago... I will find it and post it here after breakfast. [It's 12:10, I had a lie in ]

I wouldn't criticize the keyboard and mouse set up until you configure it properly. Much like you're saying that you think a properly configured Wii-mote is good, your points don't make much sense to me if you're not trying to configure the controls to fit your play style.

 

For example, I have no idea how your fingers can slip off the keyboard unless you tried playing with the keyboard angled up by the two stands on it (something I've NEVER done while playing on a keyboard). If that is the case, have you ever thought about putting your keyboard level with the desk? Also, I have no idea how your hands get tired on the keyboard, it's usually my mouse hand that's hurting after a while because I like to be aware of my surroundings and I look around a whole lot (and I've been using the computer for most of my life now. I'm getting old, what can I say?). I understand you may be confused with the keyboard because of the buttons but again, try to configure it based on how you play. I used to play using the arrow keys on the right side of my keyboard for years because the arrows keys felt easier to recognize and when I made the switch to wsad, there was no confusion.

Even more interesting is your mouse arguments. Have you ever tried to, you know, turn up the mouse sensitivity to lessen the distance you have to move it across the desk? For example, in Portal (or any source based game), I have my sensitivity set to 5. In Counter-Strike (or Half-Life based games), my sensitivity is set to around 12-14 (depending on how I'm doing that day).

Honestly, my hand hurts probably as much using a Wii-mote with waggle/'motion sensor' controls that require you to do things like flick (ect) the controller to do extra things. Again, I don't understand your motion argument because I can either assign a button for the motion controls you mentioned or I have my mouse sensitivity to my liking so I have no need to do a quick turn when I can turn that fast on my own.

I'm not saying the wii-mote is bad, but I just don't agree with your arguments.

Something like Wiimote is definitely the future, but right now there's no way any player with Wiimote/nunchuk controllers could beat a good mouse/keyboard player. A mouse player would be dancing circles around an equally good wiimote player. For me (as a former competitive FPS player) that's the criterion that counts.

For example, try to instantly turn 180 degrees while running, take a shot at an opponent who's chasing you (while continuing to run backwards), and then immediately turn 180 degrees again. Pretty ordinary with mouse/keys, impossible with wiimote/nunchuk.

For the moment, only a mouse can offer accurate reflex moves across 720 degrees.