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Forums - Gaming - BioWare: JRPGs suffer from 'lack of evolution'

What r505matt said about the sidequests is interesting because I think that the games should be more time critical. Infact I think there should things happen independent from the player. That would increase the game value. I think that the Worlds should be real systems like our world so that everything is dependent on everything else. For example you kill a random guy in a village just for fun. But later in the story this guy had some task. He had to give another NPC some information about something but he died so he could not fullfill his task the other NPC now lacks some information so he says you something completly different.

Dont know if this is possible today but games should be systems independent from the player the player just visit the system and everything could happen the game had not 3 ends or 30. The whole will change everytime you play it completly. this should be the future of gaming.



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Reasonable said:
jonnhytesta said:
first i a agree, but wrpgs suck balls too. "wrpgs are popular, that means we are amazing" cocky bastard
wrpgs cliches:
souless world with a souless main character.
macho marine
american empire(apocaliptic, conquering the space , conquering infirior species,etc)
star trek or toliken crap.
o yes and killing and killing inocent people for no good reason, crappy story and 1000 empty endings

Don't forget obvious 'good' 'evil' path to try and get you to play the game twice and get more Trophies/Achivements.  Or is that Paragon and Renegade?

Don't forget all the dice based battle systems (how much more generic can you get?)

Or art direction as bland as a turnip, bologna, lima beans, and parsnip supper during the Great Depression.



I describe myself as a little dose of toxic masculinity.

vlad321 said:
--OkeyDokey-- said:
Wow, this coming from Bioware who've been using the exact same template across mutliple IP's since KOTOR.

Jade Empire = KOTOR - Star Wars + Asia
Mass Effect = KOTOR - Star Wars
Dragon Age = KOTOR - Star Wars + Baldur's Gate

JRPGs have evolved plenty. Persona 3 and 4, The World Ends With You, Final Fantasy XII, Valkyria Chronicles and as he mentioned, Demon's Souls are all very innovative recent JRPGs.

Dragon Quest and Pokemon are guilty of staying the same, but they're more popular than ever so I don't see how they can be blamed for the decline.

I think you have all your math mixed up....

 

KOTOR = NWN - Depth + Starwars

 

Your revised math:

JE = NWN + Asia - dpeth

ME = NWN - depth

DA = NWN - depth = Baldur's gate.

Ironic to hear Bioware talk about unoriginality, isn't it?



I describe myself as a little dose of toxic masculinity.

shooters are almost all the same from the 70 shooters i have played this gen only the 6 of them had a new innovation lol



Kenryoku_Maxis said:

...not really.  The 'Golden Age' of PC RPGs WAS back in the 1980s and early 90s.  Sales were smaller back then because there were less gamers.  But PC was still dominant over consoles.  In comparison, games like Ultima and Wizardry did very well for their time.  And I don't know how you can say they 'didn't take off' considering they are considered the originators of video game RPGs (and did spawn a number of successful successors such as Dungeon Master.

But the late 90s, Consoles were overtaking PC.  And WRPGs were being overtaken by Console RPGs.  Its only been recently that WRPGs have made a comeback, and only with the help of joint releases on consoles.

The problem with this is that I was around and a PC gamer during those years.  I played a lot of the early PC games ranging from King's Quest series to games that no one has ever heard of like Tangle.  PC gaming as a whole really was subpar until around the time Commander Keen came out.  It was about then that a lot of good and memorable PC titles started being released (vga Trek, Tank Wars, etc).  Before then there wasn't really a golden age of anything except maybe MUDs.

In the late 90s, consoles weren't gaining ground against PCs.  Half-life and Starcraft had just been released, it was years until the PS2 would appear, and the most widely known of console RPGs, Final Fantasy 7 and Final Fantasy 8, were on the PC as well as the Playstation.  During that time Bioware was releasing Baldur's Gate and Black Isle was releasing Fallout.  It was one hell of a good time to be a PC gamer.

Look, if you're going to paraphrase wikipedia and think you understand what it was like to be a PC gamer during those years then go away because debating with you isn't worth my time.



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Netyaroze said:
What r505matt said about the sidequests is interesting because I think that the games should be more time critical. Infact I think there should things happen independent from the player. That would increase the game value. I think that the Worlds should be real systems like our world so that everything is dependent on everything else. For example you kill a random guy in a village just for fun. But later in the story this guy had some task. He had to give another NPC some information about something but he died so he could not fullfill his task the other NPC now lacks some information so he says you something completly different.

Dont know if this is possible today but games should be systems independent from the player the player just visit the system and everything could happen the game had not 3 ends or 30. The whole will change everytime you play it completly. this should be the future of gaming.

Haha this could actually happen in Morrowind/Oblivion. I remember killing a random NPC in Morrowind and it turned out he was a major plot character later -.- oops! I had to start over, and I loved it haha. That's what I love about Bethesda games, you get a sense of freedom but that is coupled with real consequences in the game. Bethesda is at the forefront with the kind of idea you have there, and I can imagine them going further and further with it.



Jumpin said:
Reasonable said:
jonnhytesta said:
first i a agree, but wrpgs suck balls too. "wrpgs are popular, that means we are amazing" cocky bastard
wrpgs cliches:
souless world with a souless main character.
macho marine
american empire(apocaliptic, conquering the space , conquering infirior species,etc)
star trek or toliken crap.
o yes and killing and killing inocent people for no good reason, crappy story and 1000 empty endings

Don't forget obvious 'good' 'evil' path to try and get you to play the game twice and get more Trophies/Achivements.  Or is that Paragon and Renegade?

Don't forget all the dice based battle systems (how much more generic can you get?)

Or art direction as bland as a turnip, bologna, lima beans, and parsnip supper during the Great Depression.

Is anything better than a 20 side dice and turnip?



Try to be reasonable... its easier than you think...

I agree with him 100%

I see Demon's Souls as a WRPG more then a JRPG though.



Lastgengamer said:

"My favorite thing, it's funny when you still see it, but the joke of some of the dialogue systems where it asks, 'do you wanna do this or this,' and you say no. 'Do you wanna do this or this?' No. 'Do you wanna do this or this?' No. Lemme think -- you want me to say 'yes.' And that, unfortunately, really characterized the JRPG."

but North American definitions of role-playing have simply evolved beyond those of their counterparts on the other side of the world.

 

LMAO @ the first paragraph, so true

 

And I agree with the second paragraph. WRPG > JRPG,

Bethesda > Square Enix. I'd rather play Fallout or Oblivion then Final Fantasy any day.



Words Of Wisdom said:
Kenryoku_Maxis said:

...not really.  The 'Golden Age' of PC RPGs WAS back in the 1980s and early 90s.  Sales were smaller back then because there were less gamers.  But PC was still dominant over consoles.  In comparison, games like Ultima and Wizardry did very well for their time.  And I don't know how you can say they 'didn't take off' considering they are considered the originators of video game RPGs (and did spawn a number of successful successors such as Dungeon Master.

But the late 90s, Consoles were overtaking PC.  And WRPGs were being overtaken by Console RPGs.  Its only been recently that WRPGs have made a comeback, and only with the help of joint releases on consoles.

The problem with this is that I was around and a PC gamer during those years.  I played a lot of the early PC games ranging from King's Quest series to games that no one has ever heard of like Tangle.  PC gaming as a whole really was subpar until around the time Commander Keen came out.  It was about then that a lot of good and memorable PC titles started being released (vga Trek, Tank Wars, etc).  Before then there wasn't really a golden age of anything except maybe MUDs.

In the late 90s, consoles weren't gaining ground against PCs.  Half-life and Starcraft had just been released, it was years until the PS2 would appear, and the most widely known of console RPGs, Final Fantasy 7 and Final Fantasy 8, were on the PC as well as the Playstation.  During that time Bioware was releasing Baldur's Gate and Black Isle was releasing Fallout.  It was one hell of a good time to be a PC gamer.

Look, if you're going to paraphrase wikipedia and think you understand what it was like to be a PC gamer during those years then go away because debating with you isn't worth my time.

I can claim similar thing towards you, who keeps bringing up games that aren't RPGs (what does Starcraft and Half-Life have to do with anything?).  Me bringing up LucasArts SCUMM games and early SIM games isn't going to prove my case for early RPGs on the PC.  In any event, I was playing both PC and console games in the 80s and 90s.  And its a proven fact that in the 80s or early 90s, not only were PC games more popular, but there were periods when entire genres (including RPGs) where only found on PC or only popular on PC.

A few games like Dragon Quest or Final Fantasy might be heralded as legendary today, but there was an entire ERA (span of over 15 years) where RPGs were dominant on the PC.  From Text based adventures to games like Ultima and Wizardry to games like The Bards Tale, Wasteland and etc.

Trust me, I fully admit good games came later.  That's what happens, games improve.  But the 'Golden Age' was not in 1998 and after for PC games or WRPGs.  If anything, PC games as a whole lost dominance in innovation and sales following the early 90s to consoles.  Even in recent years, all the best PC RPGs have had to make ports to consoles to cover their production costs or to compete with console RPGs.  INCLUDING Bioware games like Morrowind, Knights of the Old Republic and Mass Effect, which all sold better on consoles.



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