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Forums - Nintendo - Has Nintendo's Efforts to Entice Third Parties Worked Against It?

steverhcp02 on 03 December 2009
noname2200 said:
Kenny said:
In all fairness to third parties, Nintendo put them in a rather difficult position. By setting the processing power of the Wii so far below that of the competition, they made it difficult to financially and technically justify developing games for all three systems, and essentially left them with two options: Either develop exclusively for the Wii, or ignore one of the three systems at their peril. Third parties appear to have chosen the latter based on the performance of the GameCube, where Nintendo declined into near irrelevance in the eyes of the industry and gamers alike. If the Wii performed similarly to the GameCube, then the decision to dismiss Nintendo out of hand before the generation began would have worked out just fine.

Unfortunately for third parties, this generation worked out exactly the opposite way they had predicted. Suddenly, the choices changed to: Either backpedal and throw out all the investments made on developing HD assets (and convincing gamers that HD is a good thing) to follow the market leader, or ignore the market leader and suffer. I can't imagine it was an easy choice, as many third parties would have been screwed either way. In the end, it seems most third parties chose to stay the course, and justify their collective decision, no matter the cost. To that end, they declared war on the Wii, with the gaming media being a very willing accomplice.

Which brings us to today: Third parties ignore the market leader while simultaneously ascribing all their woes to it, the gaming media is collectively delivering a perspective of the market divorced from reality, the core hates the market leader, gamers that own the leading system are severely underserved, and everybody complains. Once the gaming media and the industry collectively declared war on the Wii, everybody in this generation lost.

I think this accurately sums up the situation. All I would add is that I think Nintendo could have prevented all this from happening if they'd acted aggressively in the beginning and acquired multiple, AAA, third-party exclusives.

My pet theory is that third parties are a combination of sheep and gold diggers, who make imitation games by the truckload and go where they think there's easy money. I submit that if Nintendo had done what it takes to acquire a Devil May Cry early in the generation, before gamers got set in their ways, it would not only have been a success, but it would have spawned a wave of imitators (of various quality) on the system.

I find Guitar Hero illustrative: the rhythm genre shunned the Wii as being risky until Guitar Hero III went on to sell millions of copies on the system (in fact, it sold the most copies on that system). After that, MTV Games rushed to put out Rock Band, and nearly every rhythm game since has appeared on the system, including some exclusive titles.

Of course, there are two big problems with this scenario. First, it would require a third-party who was willing to "risk" placing a flagship title on the system early on. Second, it would require Nintendo's willingness to pay for such exclusivity. The first was demonstrably implausible, the second borderline impossible.

And by now I fear it's too late.

This is so true based on the shovelware present.

But i do think there is really a large chunk of stdios and devs that simply aim to make games like bioshock, uncharted, gears of war, alan wake, heavy rain etc. that really just have a huge passion for the art of what they do and the things that make those games great just simply arent possible on the wii technologically, not a knock.

Granted, one could argue they could simply diversify and create innovative art on the wii but as mentioned beforetheres a deeper situation where you have all of these devs that make their bread and butter with all the tech for the PS3 and 360 and wed have to wonder if a lot of the things they do for a living would be underutilized on the wii, for instance, physics, lighting, coding.....they may be in a position where they feel to dismantle the teams and talents they have to span out and be innovative in the sense of the wii wasnt worth the sacrifice.

I think its a much deeper issue than ignorance.




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noname2200 on 03 December 2009
steverhcp02 said:

This is so true based on the shovelware present.

But i do think there is really a large chunk of stdios and devs that simply aim to make games like bioshock, uncharted, gears of war, alan wake, heavy rain etc. that really just have a huge passion for the art of what they do and the things that make those games great just simply arent possible on the wii technologically, not a knock.

Granted, one could argue they could simply diversify and create innovative art on the wii but as mentioned beforetheres a deeper situation where you have all of these devs that make their bread and butter with all the tech for the PS3 and 360 and wed have to wonder if a lot of the things they do for a living would be underutilized on the wii, for instance, physics, lighting, coding.....they may be in a position where they feel to dismantle the teams and talents they have to span out and be innovative in the sense of the wii wasnt worth the sacrifice.

I think its a much deeper issue than ignorance.

I definitely feel you're right (latest example: Infinity Ward). I actually entered that into my calculations when I said that third-parties would not be willing to do what I outlined without a VERY big incentive from Nintendo. Since Nintendo rarely does more than modest moneyhats, the reality you outlined pretty much sealed the deal.



Avinash_Tyagi on 03 December 2009
steverhcp02 said:

This is so true based on the shovelware present.

But i do think there is really a large chunk of stdios and devs that simply aim to make games like bioshock, uncharted, gears of war, alan wake, heavy rain etc. that really just have a huge passion for the art of what they do and the things that make those games great just simply arent possible on the wii technologically, not a knock.

Granted, one could argue they could simply diversify and create innovative art on the wii but as mentioned beforetheres a deeper situation where you have all of these devs that make their bread and butter with all the tech for the PS3 and 360 and wed have to wonder if a lot of the things they do for a living would be underutilized on the wii, for instance, physics, lighting, coding.....they may be in a position where they feel to dismantle the teams and talents they have to span out and be innovative in the sense of the wii wasnt worth the sacrifice.

I think its a much deeper issue than ignorance.

Except those games aren't the greatest ever, not by a longshot, so the argument that they are passionate about the art doesn't really hold, now if you say they are graphics whores, who need the crutch of HD then you have an argument



 

Predictions:Sales of Wii Fit will surpass the combined sales of the Grand Theft Auto franchiseLifetime sales of Wii will surpass the combined sales of the entire Playstation family of consoles by 12/31/2015 Wii hardware sales will surpass the total hardware sales of the PS2 by 12/31/2010 Wii will have 50% marketshare or more by the end of 2008 (I was wrong!!  It was a little over 48% only)Wii will surpass 45 Million in lifetime sales by the end of 2008 (I was wrong!!  Nintendo Financials showed it fell slightly short of 45 million shipped by end of 2008)Wii will surpass 80 Million in lifetime sales by the end of 2009 (I was wrong!! Wii didn't even get to 70 Million)

steverhcp02 on 03 December 2009
Avinash_Tyagi said:
steverhcp02 said:

This is so true based on the shovelware present.

But i do think there is really a large chunk of stdios and devs that simply aim to make games like bioshock, uncharted, gears of war, alan wake, heavy rain etc. that really just have a huge passion for the art of what they do and the things that make those games great just simply arent possible on the wii technologically, not a knock.

Granted, one could argue they could simply diversify and create innovative art on the wii but as mentioned beforetheres a deeper situation where you have all of these devs that make their bread and butter with all the tech for the PS3 and 360 and wed have to wonder if a lot of the things they do for a living would be underutilized on the wii, for instance, physics, lighting, coding.....they may be in a position where they feel to dismantle the teams and talents they have to span out and be innovative in the sense of the wii wasnt worth the sacrifice.

I think its a much deeper issue than ignorance.

Except those games aren't the greatest ever, not by a longshot, so the argument that they are passionate about the art doesn't really hold, now if you say they are graphics whores, who need the crutch of HD then you have an argument

But even some of the greatest games of all time Ocarina of time, GTA 3, Link to the past are either nintendo francheses or were still technically superior to most if not any games of their time.

The best games of this gen are arguably what you bolded in my text, or nintendo properties.

EDIT: And it wouldnt mean their HD graphic whores. Im in my second to last semester of nursing school and i could easily work in a nursing home caring for elderly making roughly the same wages as a nurse in surgery or intensive care units but i wouldnt get to do 95% of the things i went to school for and wouldnt utilize my education i feel to its fullest extent. Not to say what home care or nursing care nurses dont to a tremendous job its only to say some people thrive on different things and developers im sure are no different.




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Avinash_Tyagi on 03 December 2009
steverhcp02 said:
Avinash_Tyagi said:
steverhcp02 said:

This is so true based on the shovelware present.

But i do think there is really a large chunk of stdios and devs that simply aim to make games like bioshock, uncharted, gears of war, alan wake, heavy rain etc. that really just have a huge passion for the art of what they do and the things that make those games great just simply arent possible on the wii technologically, not a knock.

Granted, one could argue they could simply diversify and create innovative art on the wii but as mentioned beforetheres a deeper situation where you have all of these devs that make their bread and butter with all the tech for the PS3 and 360 and wed have to wonder if a lot of the things they do for a living would be underutilized on the wii, for instance, physics, lighting, coding.....they may be in a position where they feel to dismantle the teams and talents they have to span out and be innovative in the sense of the wii wasnt worth the sacrifice.

I think its a much deeper issue than ignorance.

Except those games aren't the greatest ever, not by a longshot, so the argument that they are passionate about the art doesn't really hold, now if you say they are graphics whores, who need the crutch of HD then you have an argument

But even some of the greatest games of all time Ocarina of time, GTA 3, Link to the past are either nintendo francheses or were still technically superior to most if not any games of their time.

The best games of this gen are arguably what you bolded in my text, or nintendo properties.

Some might have been technically superior (although i'd argue this, as games like Monkey Island, Civ, the original Mario and Zelda and other great games were not cutting edge), but it was more the gameplay not the bells and whistles that made them great, iconic



 

Predictions:Sales of Wii Fit will surpass the combined sales of the Grand Theft Auto franchiseLifetime sales of Wii will surpass the combined sales of the entire Playstation family of consoles by 12/31/2015 Wii hardware sales will surpass the total hardware sales of the PS2 by 12/31/2010 Wii will have 50% marketshare or more by the end of 2008 (I was wrong!!  It was a little over 48% only)Wii will surpass 45 Million in lifetime sales by the end of 2008 (I was wrong!!  Nintendo Financials showed it fell slightly short of 45 million shipped by end of 2008)Wii will surpass 80 Million in lifetime sales by the end of 2009 (I was wrong!! Wii didn't even get to 70 Million)

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steverhcp02 on 03 December 2009
Avinash_Tyagi said:
steverhcp02 said:
Avinash_Tyagi said:
steverhcp02 said:

This is so true based on the shovelware present.

But i do think there is really a large chunk of stdios and devs that simply aim to make games like bioshock, uncharted, gears of war, alan wake, heavy rain etc. that really just have a huge passion for the art of what they do and the things that make those games great just simply arent possible on the wii technologically, not a knock.

Granted, one could argue they could simply diversify and create innovative art on the wii but as mentioned beforetheres a deeper situation where you have all of these devs that make their bread and butter with all the tech for the PS3 and 360 and wed have to wonder if a lot of the things they do for a living would be underutilized on the wii, for instance, physics, lighting, coding.....they may be in a position where they feel to dismantle the teams and talents they have to span out and be innovative in the sense of the wii wasnt worth the sacrifice.

I think its a much deeper issue than ignorance.

Except those games aren't the greatest ever, not by a longshot, so the argument that they are passionate about the art doesn't really hold, now if you say they are graphics whores, who need the crutch of HD then you have an argument

But even some of the greatest games of all time Ocarina of time, GTA 3, Link to the past are either nintendo francheses or were still technically superior to most if not any games of their time.

The best games of this gen are arguably what you bolded in my text, or nintendo properties.

Some might have been technically superior (although i'd argue this, as games like Monkey Island, Civ, the original Mario and Zelda and other great games were not cutting edge), but it was more the gameplay not the bells and whistles that made them great, iconic

Monkey island came out in 1990, i dont see how you can compare "graphics" when the situations are different and there wasnt a real market in 1990 and even then monkey island looked great for its time.

Youre comparing genre defining games to current games in which genres are already established not to mention a mario game which i already addressed in my post and doesnt really make sense since its a nintendo IP and Mario games still sell amazing for the reasons youve mentioned.




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Avinash_Tyagi on 03 December 2009

^ I don't know, the current Monkey Island game is pretty good, and its not cutting edge either, granted its not quite as good as the original game, but I would gladly take it over any of the games in your original comment



 

Predictions:Sales of Wii Fit will surpass the combined sales of the Grand Theft Auto franchiseLifetime sales of Wii will surpass the combined sales of the entire Playstation family of consoles by 12/31/2015 Wii hardware sales will surpass the total hardware sales of the PS2 by 12/31/2010 Wii will have 50% marketshare or more by the end of 2008 (I was wrong!!  It was a little over 48% only)Wii will surpass 45 Million in lifetime sales by the end of 2008 (I was wrong!!  Nintendo Financials showed it fell slightly short of 45 million shipped by end of 2008)Wii will surpass 80 Million in lifetime sales by the end of 2009 (I was wrong!! Wii didn't even get to 70 Million)

steverhcp02 on 03 December 2009
Avinash_Tyagi said:
^ I don't know, the current Monkey Island game is pretty good, and its not cutting edge either, granted its not quite as good as the original game, but I would gladly take it over any of the games in your original comment

Right but youre talking about a game that was iconic for its genre and it carries over. There are plenty of games this gen like Braid, Flower, Shadow Complex, PixelJunk series, WiiWare titles that we all love more than big budget games but the discussion is about 3rd parties and pushing big titles.

I thought the argument or discussion wasnt geard towards PSN, Xbox Live or WiiWare games from third parties because third parties all thrive on the aforementioned distribution sources in their own ways.




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WereKitten on 03 December 2009
Avinash_Tyagi said:
steverhcp02 said:

This is so true based on the shovelware present.

But i do think there is really a large chunk of stdios and devs that simply aim to make games like bioshock, uncharted, gears of war, alan wake, heavy rain etc. that really just have a huge passion for the art of what they do and the things that make those games great just simply arent possible on the wii technologically, not a knock.

Granted, one could argue they could simply diversify and create innovative art on the wii but as mentioned beforetheres a deeper situation where you have all of these devs that make their bread and butter with all the tech for the PS3 and 360 and wed have to wonder if a lot of the things they do for a living would be underutilized on the wii, for instance, physics, lighting, coding.....they may be in a position where they feel to dismantle the teams and talents they have to span out and be innovative in the sense of the wii wasnt worth the sacrifice.

I think its a much deeper issue than ignorance.

Except those games aren't the greatest ever, not by a longshot, so the argument that they are passionate about the art doesn't really hold, now if you say they are graphics whores, who need the crutch of HD then you have an argument

This is insulting towards many passionate artists and professionals, and myopic because it only sees as far as your personal gaming taste.

Can't you ever admit that there is people who might think that there's something else relevant and interesting in gaming than what you personally like, or even than what is the more mainstream sentiment?

Because that's the gist of it, as others have said: producers and developers being between a rock and a hard place when it comes to choosing a platform.



"All you need in life is ignorance and confidence; then success is sure." - Mark Twain

"..." - Gordon Freeman

Avinash_Tyagi on 03 December 2009

^mainstream sentiment is with the Wii and DS, as sales show, two systems which are underpowered compared to other systems, and not known for advanced graphics and tech



 

Predictions:Sales of Wii Fit will surpass the combined sales of the Grand Theft Auto franchiseLifetime sales of Wii will surpass the combined sales of the entire Playstation family of consoles by 12/31/2015 Wii hardware sales will surpass the total hardware sales of the PS2 by 12/31/2010 Wii will have 50% marketshare or more by the end of 2008 (I was wrong!!  It was a little over 48% only)Wii will surpass 45 Million in lifetime sales by the end of 2008 (I was wrong!!  Nintendo Financials showed it fell slightly short of 45 million shipped by end of 2008)Wii will surpass 80 Million in lifetime sales by the end of 2009 (I was wrong!! Wii didn't even get to 70 Million)