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Forums - General - Can God create a rock so big that he can't lift it?

@Kasz. He isn't creating a rock he chooses not to lift, he is creating a rock he cannot lift.

If he creates the rock and is able at any point to lift it, then he has not created a rock he cannot lift.

 

Edit: Also for the George Washington thing - your going back in time most likely changes history meaning you no longer know for certain the decisions he will make. So no you haven't.



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Kasz216 said:
SeriousWB said:
Kasz216 said:
Also, how does knowing what decision everyone is going to make negate free will.

That's like saying George Washington doesn't have free will because I know what decision he was going to make.

I disagree on your second sentence.

If there is any being that knows for certain what path you will take at every point in your life beforehand with no possible way for you to change that, one could argue that your life is predetermined. If you think you are trying to change your predermined path, you aren't, you are just making another turn on that path as it was known you would.  Despite that, I do agree somewhat with the argument you are making.

If God knew this anyway, he would know who is going to heaven and hell already.  If he is against impending on free will (as people seem to use as a defense for him preventing people doing things that damns them to hell) why were the commandments given? Why does he have humans informed of his existance at all?

Ok, i'll rewrite my second sentence slightly.

Say i build a time machine and go back in time to when George Washington was born. 

Have I robbed him of his free will?

No because you could affect his life, causing him to make new decisions you would not know the outcome of.  However, that could lead to an off topic argument on how affecting the past would change the present you have lived before the time travel.

Edit: Rath ninja edited with basically the same response.

 



Kasz216 said:
highwaystar101 said:
Kasz216 said:
highwaystar101 said:

Have I not been speaking English in this thread?

Maybe I'm being a little complicated, allow me to simplify my argument.

1. Infinite and finite realms are two different things. For an infinite being to exist in a finite realm (our Universe) then it must adhere to the limitations in our Universe, therefore becoming limited by our time and power.

2. For an infinite being to create within our Universe then it become finite in order to interact with us, whether this is external or internal. (See Genesis being measured in periods of time argument)

3. If God created our universe then it must be finite to have done so. If god is finite then that must mean that at some point it didn't exist and at some point it will cease to exist. (This is a further catalist to the creators creator argument.)

4. Therefore two opposing conclusions can be drawn...

i. If God was an infinite being but created the finite Universe, then we must assume that God has had to become finite in order to interact or create it, therefore adhering to the same limitations as all beings within our Universe making it as mortal/fragil as you and I. So it can't move a rock of theoretical infinite size within our finite Universe.

ii. God is infinite and therefore can move any rock of any size, dimension or weight within an infinite realm. But this would make it unlikely that God is a creator of our Universe.

I can write a complete computer program of a world.  I am not then bound by the laws of this world.  I'm not anymore finite then I was before I do it.

I think your logic is flawed.

I can see where you're coming from Kasz, but I think you overlooked one factor. You are not a being that exists in a infinite world lol.

No, but i'm a being who lives in a LESS finite world.

The confines of the world i created are less then of the world I live in.... such a world could not contain me.

You've agreed with my hypothesis again.

Infinite and finite are two very different states Kasz. Think about it. In an infinite realm time, space and matter are infinite. For example, you could say that time does not exist in a realm that has infinite time because time has no "physical value" if that makes sense.

You are a finite being living in a finite world kasz, you can logically create a sub-realm that is less finite than yours, but you and it are still both finite.

What I'm saying is that an infinite being can't create a finite realm.

The thing is you're actually agreeing with my hypothesis Kasz, I just think you're playing devils advocate.

...

Are you watching the Aston Villa match anyway? lol



Rath said:
@Kasz. He isn't creating a rock he chooses not to lift, he is creating a rock he cannot lift.

If he creates the rock and is able at any point to lift it, then he has not created a rock he cannot lift.

Sure he has. 

I can find a statue I can't life... but if I worked out enough eventually I could lift it.  Or I can make the statue smaller.... whatever.

It's not really a difficult concept.  Omnipotence would mean that you can do anything you want... (or can't if you want) until you change your mind.

If he could later lift it he created a rock he "couldn't" lift but now can.

At the time of creation it was just rock he couldn't lift however.



JaggedSac said:
Rath said:

Omniscience poses more of a problem to free will. If god knows everything then he knows what you are going to do therefore you don't have free will.

Generally the only way around it is to alter the definition of omniscience slightly to make it mean 'the ability to know everything' rather than the absolute knowledge of everything - thus giving god the ability to choose not to know what you are going to do.

 

Also in my opinion the god paradox (can an omnipotent being be able to be unable to do something) is just that - a paradox. Omnipotence with the definition 'able to do anything' is an impossible term.

 

@d21lewis. Is your name Job by any chance? =P

@highwaystar. I don't see how coming to the conclusion that god is not omnipotent proves that god is not eternal. How does a limit on power lead to a limit on time?

Omniscience is the capacity to know everything infinitely.  There are an infinite number of paths that someone can take for each instant of their life.  An omnipotent being such as a god would be able to understand all the available paths at all times.  This still allows for free will because the person chooses which path to walk down.  The being would know your available choices and their consequence, but the choice of path can still be completely yours.

No, omniscience would require the being to know which path you are going to go down as well. Otherwise it does not know everything.



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Am I right in assuming at this point that we have a lot of non-believers arguing over the semantics of something they don't believe in?

Is that about right?

Look, if you want to get down on that, God may not have a linear perspective on time. Everything may exist simultaneously for him.

(he's not omniscient in my own scenarios but I'm just pointing this out)



Kasz216 said:
Rath said:
@Kasz. He isn't creating a rock he chooses not to lift, he is creating a rock he cannot lift.

If he creates the rock and is able at any point to lift it, then he has not created a rock he cannot lift.

Sure he has. 

I can find a statue I can't life... but if I worked out enough eventually I could lift it.  Or I can make the statue smaller.... whatever.

It's not really a difficult concept.  Omnipotence would mean that you can do anything you want... (or can't if you want) until you change your mind.

Yes but you're not omnipotent.

Omnipotence requires being able to do anything at anytime. Literally all powerful.

 

And I do get your concept, I just think it doesn't fit the definition of the problem. If you want I can change the question slightly - can God create a rock that he will never be able to lift even if he wants to?



Kasz216 said:
Rath said:
@Kasz. He isn't creating a rock he chooses not to lift, he is creating a rock he cannot lift.

If he creates the rock and is able at any point to lift it, then he has not created a rock he cannot lift.

Sure he has. 

I can find a statue I can't life... but if I worked out enough eventually I could lift it.  Or I can make the statue smaller.... whatever.

It's not really a difficult concept.  Omnipotence would mean that you can do anything you want... (or can't if you want) until you change your mind.

Its a logical paradox, Kasz.  Its impossible.

If an omnipotent god wants to make a rock that is too heavy for him to lift, he cant do it.  Even with their omnipotence they aren't able to do it.  Using your own argument of what God wants, God wants to make a rock he cant lift, but he cant do it.

He chooses to make a rock he can't lift... because he doesn't want to... and it remains unliftable until he actually wants to lift it.

Wanting to do something has nothing to do with wether or not you are strong enough to do so.  If there is a piece of paper in front of me, my not wanting to lift it does not make it too heavy for me to lift.



ManusJustus said:

Its a logical paradox, Kasz.  Its impossible.

If an omnipotent god wants to make a rock that is too heavy for him to lift, he cant do it.  Even with their omnipotence they aren't able to do it.  Using your own argument of what God wants, God wants to make a rock he cant lift, but he cant do it.

This isn't supposed to be a logical paradox, though, it's supposed to be a stepping-off point for ruminations about the nature of God and his relationship with his creation



Khuutra said:
ManusJustus said:

Its a logical paradox, Kasz.  Its impossible.

If an omnipotent god wants to make a rock that is too heavy for him to lift, he cant do it.  Even with their omnipotence they aren't able to do it.  Using your own argument of what God wants, God wants to make a rock he cant lift, but he cant do it.

This isn't supposed to be a logical paradox, though, it's supposed to be a stepping-off point for ruminations about the nature of God and his relationship with his creation

If anything, all this argument does is prove that there is no such thing as omnipotence.