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Forums - Sales - Which is moraly (not legaly) worse? Secondhand _ Pirating _ Renting_Lending

It seems that vlad321 doesn't respond to those in this thread that make arguments why it's ok to buy used that are different from arguments that pirates can use.

I said before how the producer of a game can see how much it sells for used and then can do something about it to compete with it. Offer more on the disc, bundle the game, lower their price plus many other things. When they see what people are willing to pay for the game they can work to get those dollars. Money the see people spending, not hypothetical money that a pirate might someday decide to pay.
Without the used games the publisher would be taking all the profits without as much motivation to be offering more for it. Used games are ways for being to get more value out of what the publisher makes. That could be used for pirates as well however used games respect the right of the publisher to produce the disc and content on it. One disc one person or small group playing the game. Pirates don't respect that at all.
When I buy a copy of a used game there is one less game in circulation for other buys. A limited supply for a limited number of buyers. When someone pirates a game the number of games in circulation stays the same and if we counted the number of copies the potential is infinite. So an infinite supply for a limited demand for the game thus making it that people feel they should pay nothing.
Now try to say arguments of if almost everyone bought used vs if almost everyone pirated. If almost everyone bought used who would have the game but a select few since there has to be a used game someone is selling. So there is still incentive for people to buy new. With pirating everyone could have the game who wanted it. So where is the intensive for anyone else to buy the game.
For me moral is a standard where I expect others to do as I do. If everyone did as I do and buy a game when it's a price I find reasonable be it used or new. If we all act that way the publisher get's money and we get the games. If I found it ok to pirate the game and everyone else felt the same as me. There wouldn't be much money for publishers unless they make things that can't be pirated and even then who knows if anyone would be bothered to buy it for any price.



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Wonktonodi said:
It seems that vlad321 doesn't respond to those in this thread that make arguments why it's ok to buy used that are different from arguments that pirates can use.

I said before how the producer of a game can see how much it sells for used and then can do something about it to compete with it. Offer more on the disc, bundle the game, lower their price plus many other things. When they see what people are willing to pay for the game they can work to get those dollars. Money the see people spending, not hypothetical money that a pirate might someday decide to pay.
Without the used games the publisher would be taking all the profits without as much motivation to be offering more for it. Used games are ways for being to get more value out of what the publisher makes. That could be used for pirates as well however used games respect the right of the publisher to produce the disc and content on it. One disc one person or small group playing the game. Pirates don't respect that at all.
When I buy a copy of a used game there is one less game in circulation for other buys. A limited supply for a limited number of buyers. When someone pirates a game the number of games in circulation stays the same and if we counted the number of copies the potential is infinite. So an infinite supply for a limited demand for the game thus making it that people feel they should pay nothing.
Now try to say arguments of if almost everyone bought used vs if almost everyone pirated. If almost everyone bought used who would have the game but a select few since there has to be a used game someone is selling. So there is still incentive for people to buy new. With pirating everyone could have the game who wanted it. So where is the intensive for anyone else to buy the game.
For me moral is a standard where I expect others to do as I do. If everyone did as I do and buy a game when it's a price I find reasonable be it used or new. If we all act that way the publisher get's money and we get the games. If I found it ok to pirate the game and everyone else felt the same as me. There wouldn't be much money for publishers unless they make things that can't be pirated and even then who knows if anyone would be bothered to buy it for any price.

 

I do, your arguments are the same as ironman's and a bunch of others, the replys are in my replies to them.

1. Pirates don't produce physical discs, there exists only ONE disk with piracy, no one produced a second disc. As far as the publisher sees, they got paid for 1 disc yet more than 1 person played it, whether it's piracy or used.

2. The fact that there is a limited supply of used games would be a very good argument if I didn't walk into gamestop and seen a fairly nice supply of Uncharted 2, so I doubt the used game market is supply constrained at the moment. Hate to break it to you, but the discs cost a few cents to make, there is no for publishers EVER being supply constrained in any way shape or form. Theoretically this is a great argument, in reality however it is not so.

3. Well your moral must be skewed because if you think that it's fine to buy used games but are not fine with pirating you are one horrible hypocrite.



Tag(thx fkusumot) - "Yet again I completely fail to see your point..."

HD vs Wii, PC vs HD: http://www.vgchartz.com/forum/thread.php?id=93374

Why Regenerating Health is a crap game mechanic: http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=3986420

gamrReview's broken review scores: http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=4170835

 

S.T.A.G.E. said:
nofingershaha said:
Nothing pisses off a publisher more than when you buy a used game. Not only are they not receiving any money, they can't even bring you or the retailer to court.

Actually no. Publishers hate pirates more than used games stores. People have the right to sell products that they buy in the gaming realm, because it is their physical property after they purchase it, new or used. They cannot take the retailer to court, because most of the used games in the store are their property. The stores essentially buy unwanted games from consumers with credit and sometimes even money. It is their property to sell, therefore it isn't illegal. Second of all, it is very legal, because  they aren't making copies of the games (which is illegal), they are selling official copies to people. The only thing second hand stores do is decrease sales potential, they don't kill off sales like pirates.

I don't think you realize that games aren't property, they are intellectull property, an idea. Anyone who experiences the idea has made use of the property and needs to pay for it to the person who owns said property. The retaielrs bought a physical disc, not the idea on it, he idea still belongs to the developer and people who use it need to pay them, not the retailer.



Tag(thx fkusumot) - "Yet again I completely fail to see your point..."

HD vs Wii, PC vs HD: http://www.vgchartz.com/forum/thread.php?id=93374

Why Regenerating Health is a crap game mechanic: http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=3986420

gamrReview's broken review scores: http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=4170835

 

Akvod said:

Imagine a world without property rights. Anarchy in that respect only. Forgetting being able to take anything from anybody, lets stick with IP. Medical companies have no incentive to fund research, it'll probably go to the government completely (whether you think that's good or bad is up to you), you'll have absolutely no clue what you're buying, as anyone can use the well known brand name and even designs (so you essentially have a bootleg market). Production value will go down (doesn't necessarily mean that the music or game will be worse. Just that the budgets will go down).

There is a difference between IP laws and copyright protection. 

Intellectual property, in some form, always exists since property exists. "It is my plan, my story, my painting, don't use it."  A world without IP laws would need to be a utopian communist society where everyone gets everything, and artist only work for the sake of art, scientists invent things only for science, and Starfleet officers voluntarily explore the Galaxy just for fun, and virtue. 

On the other hand, copyright protection laws rose around the industrial revolution, when mass production was expensive, and copying it was a big deal. Getting profits from it was just a side effect, since the product was sold for profit, the IP owner could keep it, and thus, directly selling the IP material for money became the standard business model. In any other situation, they would have been forced to find another source of revenue.

Now the Internet is changing things again. It is the Information Age. Copying things is no longer a big deal. Every downloading is a copy. When you use a copyrighted character as your avatar, you copy it. When you get rickrolled, you copy that song into your PC's memory from Youtube. When you take a screenshot from the game you are playing, and you copy the on-screen characters that are the publisher's IP. 

As music, gaming, books, and films are getting changed to Digital Distribution, people start wondering: what stops them from copying them as casually as they copy every other data in their life? Some old obscure law from an age when copying was big deal? 

Publishers might keep their IPs, but they MUST soon find new ways for revenue instead of selling the product for a price, as there is no longer a product, just some sort of service.



Hephaestos said:

Taking asside the legal aspect (as pirating is the only illegal one in the list... and it's morally wrong to do something illegal etc...).

 

 

Just because something is illegal doesn't mean it isn't moral.  Most illegal things are moral, at least to me.

To answer your question, pirating is sometimes not moral.  All of the other things you mentioned are moral.



 

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vlad321 said:
nofingershaha said:
Akvod said:
nofingershaha said:
Nothing pisses off a publisher more than when you buy a used game. Not only are they not receiving any money, they can't even bring you or the retailer to court.

But what do you think are the moral implications of buying a used game... I hope you're not saying that if one group if pissed or doesn't benefit, it's immoral.

In my opinion, buying a used game isn't morally wrong. Publishers should offer us a better reason why we should buy something new. After all we are only looking after ourselves and our wallets, just like most video game companies.


I can say the same thing about piracy.

 

@akvod

The CD is my property, what's on it isn't. Also When I produce something? Pirating =/= producing ANYTHING, I'm just making a copy of the very property I bought. Like say, retyping a book and giving it to my friend.

Retyping a book and giving it to your friend is a violation of IP because you're producing something. Giving an CD you own isn't because you don't produce anything, just transfering your own property to someone else. IP is the right to use/produce something. You can't actually "own" an idea, brand name, code, etc.



Alterego-X said:
Akvod said:

Imagine a world without property rights. Anarchy in that respect only. Forgetting being able to take anything from anybody, lets stick with IP. Medical companies have no incentive to fund research, it'll probably go to the government completely (whether you think that's good or bad is up to you), you'll have absolutely no clue what you're buying, as anyone can use the well known brand name and even designs (so you essentially have a bootleg market). Production value will go down (doesn't necessarily mean that the music or game will be worse. Just that the budgets will go down).

There is a difference between IP laws and copyright protection. 

Intellectual property, in some form, always exists since property exists. "It is my plan, my story, my painting, don't use it."  A world without IP laws would need to be a utopian communist society where everyone gets everything, and artist only work for the sake of art, scientists invent things only for science, and Starfleet officers voluntarily explore the Galaxy just for fun, and virtue. 

On the other hand, copyright protection laws rose around the industrial revolution, when mass production was expensive, and copying it was a big deal. Getting profits from it was just a side effect, since the product was sold for profit, the IP owner could keep it, and thus, directly selling the IP material for money became the standard business model. In any other situation, they would have been forced to find another source of revenue.

Now the Internet is changing things again. It is the Information Age. Copying things is no longer a big deal. Every downloading is a copy. When you use a copyrighted character as your avatar, you copy it. When you get rickrolled, you copy that song into your PC's memory from Youtube. When you take a screenshot from the game you are playing, and you copy the on-screen characters that are the publisher's IP. 

As music, gaming, books, and films are getting changed to Digital Distribution, people start wondering: what stops them from copying them as casually as they copy every other data in their life? Some old obscure law from an age when copying was big deal? 

Publishers might keep their IPs, but they MUST soon find new ways for revenue instead of selling the product for a price, as there is no longer a product, just some sort of service.

I thought that there was IP and there were different things for it:

Copyright

Patent

Trade Mark...(?)

Fuck I don't feel like looking in my econ textbook (oh wait, I actually have to start sucking it up and study again =/ Man, after midterm I just became lazy).



Haha, I guess I'm violating IP by doing this, but for the sake of teaching IP:

Akvod's Textbook said:

In oiur modern economy, ideas, designs, or processes contribute to the goods and services we enjoy. These ideas -- and the research and creativity behind them -- are called intellectual property. To be sure that inventors benefit from their work, the government gives them intellectual property rights. The rights take several forms. Patents cover inventions; copyrights apply to creative communications (books, films, music). Brands, trade names, and logos apply to the names, designs, and even songs and jingles that identify products and services. But how much intellectual property is necessary?

There is a tradeoff top rotecting intellectual property. On the one hand, if anyone could copy free of charge all CDs, DVDs, software, drugs, and other idea products, their creators wouldn't reap any rewards for their efforts, other than the satisfaction of knowing many people enjoyed or benefited from them

...

On the other hand, especially with digital and molecular technologies, the cost of making an additional copy of a CD, DVD, piece of software, drug, or most other "idea" products is almost zero. And so they could be avaiable to many people for free, or at very low cost -- possibly spreading their benefits to hundreds of millions. Consider the value to poor people around the world of a new drug that fights tuberculosis.

...

Ideas themselves, can't be turned into private property. Most ideas found in the books of university professors, for example, aren't private property. They're for everyone to have. Only the books and articles themselves are copyrighted.

Alterego-X said:

There is a difference between IP laws and copyright protection. 

Intellectual property, in some form, always exists since property exists. "It is my plan, my story, my painting, don't use it."  A world without IP laws would need to be a utopian communist society where everyone gets everything, and artist only work for the sake of art, scientists invent things only for science, and Starfleet officers voluntarily explore the Galaxy just for fun, and virtue. 

On the other hand, copyright protection laws rose around the industrial revolution, when mass production was expensive, and copying it was a big deal. Getting profits from it was just a side effect, since the product was sold for profit, the IP owner could keep it, and thus, directly selling the IP material for money became the standard business model. In any other situation, they would have been forced to find another source of revenue.

Now the Internet is changing things again. It is the Information Age. Copying things is no longer a big deal. Every downloading is a copy. When you use a copyrighted character as your avatar, you copy it. When you get rickrolled, you copy that song into your PC's memory from Youtube. When you take a screenshot from the game you are playing, and you copy the on-screen characters that are the publisher's IP. 

As music, gaming, books, and films are getting changed to Digital Distribution, people start wondering: what stops them from copying them as casually as they copy every other data in their life? Some old obscure law from an age when copying was big deal? 

Publishers might keep their IPs, but they MUST soon find new ways for revenue instead of selling the product for a price, as there is no longer a product, just some sort of service.

I'll love to type the entire text book, but I'm tired and shouldn't O.o

Look, if we go the route of vlad, we will be denying people to trade or give ANYTHING. How many things are NOT copyrighted, involve patented technology, or not have a fucking brand name? Especially when we live in a modern society with mass production instead of some local farmers building a desk. No, when you buy a desk from IKEA, there's a brand name on it, an person who designed the desk (crappily probably, if it's from IKEA) and submited his design to be protected.

I can't even give my can of Coke away since Coca Cola has the IP rights to it.

*** HOWEVER, IP IS ONLY INVOLVED IN FUCKING PRODUCING >.<  ***

Coca cola, doesn't actually have any rights over my can of coke. It's MY private property, not theirs. I simply don't have the right to use their brand name to sell my own cheap coke formula.

I can own a game and give it away and sell it. I just don't have the right to PRODUCE (or REPRODUCE) the game myself, and sell it. Or make my own game and slap Bioshock with the same cover art on it, and sell it.



Akvod said:
vlad321 said:
nofingershaha said:
Akvod said:
nofingershaha said:
Nothing pisses off a publisher more than when you buy a used game. Not only are they not receiving any money, they can't even bring you or the retailer to court.

But what do you think are the moral implications of buying a used game... I hope you're not saying that if one group if pissed or doesn't benefit, it's immoral.

In my opinion, buying a used game isn't morally wrong. Publishers should offer us a better reason why we should buy something new. After all we are only looking after ourselves and our wallets, just like most video game companies.


I can say the same thing about piracy.

 

@akvod

The CD is my property, what's on it isn't. Also When I produce something? Pirating =/= producing ANYTHING, I'm just making a copy of the very property I bought. Like say, retyping a book and giving it to my friend.

Retyping a book and giving it to your friend is a violation of IP because you're producing something. Giving an CD you own isn't because you don't produce anything, just transfering your own property to someone else. IP is the right to use/produce something. You can't actually "own" an idea, brand name, code, etc.

I don't think you understand. The CD IS your property, but just the CD. The game however is NOT your property for you to transfer. It's the intellectual property of the developer. You are not allowed to sell their property. You can sell the CD after you have wiped off the developer's properties off of it, it is yours after all.

Also I don't care whether you share or not. I want you to realize that saying that piracy is bad but you go and buy used games is extreme hipocrisy.



Tag(thx fkusumot) - "Yet again I completely fail to see your point..."

HD vs Wii, PC vs HD: http://www.vgchartz.com/forum/thread.php?id=93374

Why Regenerating Health is a crap game mechanic: http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=3986420

gamrReview's broken review scores: http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=4170835

 

Neither. Universal morality does not exist.