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Forums - General Discussion - Do You Think Obama is a Socialist... Do You Care?

Nope. He's if anything more European I'd say, which is to say the balancing of a Democratic, Capitalist state with a reasonable level of social programs and equality of basic support.



Try to be reasonable... its easier than you think...

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Double post - or it was! Pity there's no delete I can see.

 



Try to be reasonable... its easier than you think...

But seriously, Socialism is the future of mankind.  As society progress, people want more freedom and democracy.  Kings who control the government have the same fate as the wealthy elite who control the economy.



@Slimebeast. Yes social democracy comes from communism but it has evolved from that point a lot and now modern social democracy actually accepts capitalism. Essentially social democracy is pro welfare-state.



famousringo said:
No, the people and the state are no where near the same thing. The power of the state may flow from the people, but that isn't necessarily the case. Ask the citizens of Iran if they think the state represents them.

At its most rudimentary level, the state is one thing only: A monopoly on the use of force.

The nazi's were facists no?  The poster childs for it.

They were in fact socilists as well... why.  What's best for the governmen is best for the people.  Or was in there minds.  Which is how any socialism is going to go when times are rough or money is rough.

The difference between facism and socialism is how well off your doing.



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Kasz216 said:
famousringo said:
No, the people and the state are no where near the same thing. The power of the state may flow from the people, but that isn't necessarily the case. Ask the citizens of Iran if they think the state represents them.

At its most rudimentary level, the state is one thing only: A monopoly on the use of force.

The nazi's were facists no?  The poster childs for it.

They were in fact socilists as well... why.  What's best for the governmen is best for the people.  Or was in there minds.  Which is how any socialism is going to go when times are rough or money is rough.

The difference between facism and socialism is how well off your doing.

There is a lot wrong with this post.

 

Firstly facism is largely based on its authoritarian and nationalist views, not on its economic viewpoints.

Secondly facism is actually usally corporatist, not socialist.

Thirdly the Nazi's, despite their name, were never really very socialist. Their policies never even really ambled towards socialism.

 

You can have a capitalist democracy or a socialist democracy. You can have a capitalist autocracy or a socialist autocracy. The two things aren't even really on the same scale.



Rath said:
Kasz216 said:
famousringo said:
No, the people and the state are no where near the same thing. The power of the state may flow from the people, but that isn't necessarily the case. Ask the citizens of Iran if they think the state represents them.

At its most rudimentary level, the state is one thing only: A monopoly on the use of force.

The nazi's were facists no?  The poster childs for it.

They were in fact socilists as well... why.  What's best for the governmen is best for the people.  Or was in there minds.  Which is how any socialism is going to go when times are rough or money is rough.

The difference between facism and socialism is how well off your doing.

There is a lot wrong with this post.

 

Firstly facism is largely based on its authoritarian and nationalist views, not on its economic viewpoints.

Secondly facism is actually usally corporatist, not socialist.

Thirdly the Nazi's, despite their name, were never really very socialist. Their policies never even really ambled towards socialism.

 

You can have a capitalist democracy or a socialist democracy. You can have a capitalist autocracy or a socialist autocracy. The two things aren't even really on the same scale.

The Nazis economic viewpoints were very socialist... and in fact were the focus of their party.  That's how they came to power.

Their economy was actually trying to promote a "third way" between capitalism and communism which they both saw as wrong.

Since there economy was bad... it was for the good of the people to be subjected for the state until the state was in good condition.

Hence why the people even voted for it.

 

What happens in nations with high socilism when they can't afford to pay for their programs anymore?  Probaby the same that happens in Nazi germany.  The government takes over the means of production of those industries.  (Though private buisnesses still owned their companies... it meant nothing.)



Rath said:
@Slimebeast. Yes social democracy comes from communism but it has evolved from that point a lot and now modern social democracy actually accepts capitalism. Essentially social democracy is pro welfare-state.


Social democracy sux.



This thread just saddens me. I wish everyone would just pick up a history book.



The main difference between a Fascist and a Communist state when it comes to the economy is that a Fascist state allows some ownership over the means of production ... but this ownership can be taken away at the whim of the government and you have only minor control over what you choose to produce.

Now, lets use a car company as an example to explain how a fascist economy works ...

In a fascist economy an individual (or group of individuals) may own a car company and they have some rights to produce cars that people might actually want to drive. Unfortunately, the government has full rights to step in at any point in time and take their company away from them and give it to their friends regardless of any standing contracts that exist, and the government has full rights to step in at any point and tell the company what cars to produce regardless of whether there is demand for those kinds of vehicles.

Edit: It should be noted that the Progressive movement of the first half of the previous century (which is the foundation of the ideologies that dominate the "Left Wing" of the political spectrum in most western countries) idolized fascist states like Nazi Germany; and shared many of the same scary policies about eugenics among other things.