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Forums - Gaming Discussion - Specs of Microsofts next XBox

megaman79 said:
Looks like someone spent 5 minutes designing a blog website for free. Its terribly designed and theres an article Sega releasing a new console. WTF


WOW. If the sega thing you say is true then the basis of this thread is compromised and we should all go home and do something more useful with our fingers.



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alephnull said:

Yes, but the primary reason is unituitive. It comes from the fact that the 360 shares the memory bank with the video card. To explain I need to go into some background though (sorry if you already know this).

It is vastly more efficient (though technically not required for the cell) for the programmer/compiler to explicitly manage (some aspects) of DMA calls on an SPU because it is composed of two different core-like things with a "division of labor" which execute in parallel. The SPE gets to slosh around in it's 256KB playground while the MFC either very quickly borrows/shares from/with the other SPEs (all the SPEs can read each other's LS with almost no overhead) or grabs things from main memory via it's DMAC. The address space of the LS accessed via real physical addresses and hence, no translations of virtual addresses (there are actually 2 levels of address virtualization on the 360!) are required and so you don't need to cache those translations with a TLB for anything the SPE does.

On a cache coherent system the equivalent of these DMAC calls would happen when a normal load by a core (call it core A) has a cache miss. Since there was a cache miss, that cache has to go out to find the data from a higher level. But what happens if another core (call it core B) already has that address in it's L1 cache (which is always written through to L2 on the 360) and has been messing with it?

You need a way to keep B informed of any changed -- usually by B's cache snooping (intercepting) all reads to that physical address in main memory and L2 cache and broadcasting to A's cache (and every other core's cache) to backoff while it updates the changes. The process of setting this up is a bit involved and while this is being set up noone can access main memory to avoid two caches simulatneously requesting and thinking they are owners of a line.

So what does this have to do with the video card?

Well, on the 360 the video card has the ability read and write directly to main memory and L2 cache! So the 360 has to maintain coherency between all the L1 caches, the L2 cache, main memory, and the caches on the video card itself via the FSB. The video cards tendency to clober mass quatities of data doesn't help either.

 

Thanks for explaining it in such detail. I cannot respond because im completely out of my depth, but thanks!

Btw I wanted to ask you this earlier, if you were designing a next Xbox what kind of CPU would you use? Would you go for the Cell model, something similar to the Xbox 360 CPU or something more akin to your X86 line of desktop CPUs?



Tease.

NJ5 said:
Only in MikeB's world would the PS3 be on par with a console with a Shader 5 GPU and 1 GB of RAM.

Well I must be in MikeB's world (who is that anyway?) becuase the Cell will still have it beat on physics despite its limitations. If the physics are good then the animation possible on the system will be better. Don't see that happen with a six core whatever (unless someone is implying the Cell is going to be in the nextbox.) You can have as detailed models graphically as you want, but realistically if your high polygon models with shader whatever support don't move in a lifelike manner then your graphics are crap. If M$ really is releasing a new console then they would do well to make sure their new CPU can handle better physics rather than higher res textures and lighthing.

M$ is a little scared if they are releasing a new console this soon, but based on the specs I would compare it to the Sega 32X. It most likely won't do as well, but of course I think the specs listed are fake.



-- Nothing is nicer than seeing your PS3 on an HDTV through an HDMI cable for the first time.

kaneada said:
NJ5 said:
Only in MikeB's world would the PS3 be on par with a console with a Shader 5 GPU and 1 GB of RAM.

Well I must be in MikeB's world (who is that anyway?) becuase the Cell will still have it beat on physics despite its limitations. If the physics are good then the animation possible on the system will be better. Don't see that happen with a six core whatever (unless someone is implying the Cell is going to be in the nextbox.) You can have as detailed models graphically as you want, but realistically if your high polygon models with shader whatever support don't move in a lifelike manner then your graphics are crap. If M$ really is releasing a new console then they would do well to make sure their new CPU can handle better physics rather than higher res textures and lighthing.

M$ is a little scared if they are releasing a new console this soon, but based on the specs I would compare it to the Sega 32X. It most likely won't do as well, but of course I think the specs listed are fake.


IT'S NOT A NEW CONSOLE!!!! FUCK!!! Why do people keep saying that??? Anyways dude, you seem like a guy who believes and overplays the "difference"between the 360 and PS3's graphical capabilities. Truth is the difference is minuscle at best.

I have a friend whose a ps3 owner and big sony fanboy and although he knows about the 360 and it games somewhat he's never experienced them for himself. He has owned a ps3 since Jan 07 and owns their best games. I purchased my 360 the week of GoW 2's launch and bought gears in it's midnight launch. So this was circa Nov 2008. About 2 weeks later he came over one night and I convinced him to try out gears 2 online and he agreed wanting to prove he could dominate us 360 owners. When I popped in gears and the online match started he had the most reaction fueled, jaw dropping type of wow. You'd have to be there, but if you were, you'd no his wow was purely reaction, with no thought. Besides if he had stopped to think he would have withheld his impression of the game's graphics. At the time I owned a 36 inch CTR tube tv made by Sharp. It was purchased in late 2001.

If his PS3 is so superior to my 360, why did the 360 impress him so profoundly it mustered a reaction? My friend's favorite franchise is the MGS franchise and he bought MGS4 as soon as it was available. He was no stranger to the PS3's power.



kaneada said:
NJ5 said:
Only in MikeB's world would the PS3 be on par with a console with a Shader 5 GPU and 1 GB of RAM.

Well I must be in MikeB's world (who is that anyway?) becuase the Cell will still have it beat on physics despite its limitations. If the physics are good then the animation possible on the system will be better. Don't see that happen with a six core whatever (unless someone is implying the Cell is going to be in the nextbox.) You can have as detailed models graphically as you want, but realistically if your high polygon models with shader whatever support don't move in a lifelike manner then your graphics are crap. If M$ really is releasing a new console then they would do well to make sure their new CPU can handle better physics rather than higher res textures and lighthing.

M$ is a little scared if they are releasing a new console this soon, but based on the specs I would compare it to the Sega 32X. It most likely won't do as well, but of course I think the specs listed are fake.

Most games use the GPU to its max but not the CPU. That's why 360 and PS3 games look quite similar, their GPUs are almost equally powered. That's also why the best upgrade you can do to a gaming PC is upgrading its GPU, upgrading the CPU will yield almost no benefit for most games.

Modern CPUs including the Cell, the Xenon and Intel CPUs have more than enough power to calculate the physics of as many objects as a GPU can handle.

What's more, a fast GPU can also be used to accelerate physics processing without hogging the GPU too much. Ever heard of PhysX?

Having said all that... do you have any practical example of a game with "crap physics" due to an underpowered CPU when the GPU is quite powerful?

 



My Mario Kart Wii friend code: 2707-1866-0957

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Fake. Besides, why hasn't MS been anywhere talking about this? Plus - MS will embrace HD-DVD instead of Blu Ray. Same capacity ATM, they have a license for it and don't need to sacrifice space.

The HD-DVD format is dead for movies, but not for storage. Making discs is not the prob. The HD-DVD makers could easily - EASILY - restart it. The PSP, the DS, GC and others have proven a console can support a single format.

I will bet my sig that MS will do that - yeah, Red, baby!



NJ5 said:

Most games use the GPU to its max but not the CPU. That's why 360 and PS3 games look quite similar, their GPUs are almost equally powered. That's also why the best upgrade you can do to a gaming PC is upgrading its GPU, upgrading the CPU will yield almost no benefit for most games.

Modern CPUs including the Cell, the Xenon and Intel CPUs have more than enough power to calculate the physics of as many objects as a GPU can handle.

What's more, a fast GPU can also be used to accelerate physics processing without hogging the GPU too much. Ever heard of PhysX?

Having said all that... do you have any practical example of a game with "crap physics" due to an underpowered CPU when the GPU is quite powerful?

 

The problem with the CPU argument is that games are designed to scale well with different GPUs however the whole game has to be designed within the constraints of a certain level of CPU performance. If your GPU is underpowered you'd struggle with lower average framerates and change settings if applicable, but if your CPU is struggling your minumum framerate can bottom out, but once your game goes beyond that it doesn't really improve your game experience.



Tease.

@Squilliam: Yeah, that's because it's easier (and more acceptable) to scale graphics than things like AI and physics.

Everyone can understand that a game gets better resolution with a better GPU, but if the AI and physics are made scaled by CPU power, people won't like it (imagine if the enemies acted smarter on your friend's super-computer).

Scaling things like AI and physics would also make it harder to test a game... how to make sure the AI won't get too smart, or that weird physics bugs won't happen with differently-powered computers?

 



My Mario Kart Wii friend code: 2707-1866-0957

NJ5 said:

@Squilliam: Yeah, that's because it's easier (and more acceptable) to scale graphics than things like AI and physics.

Everyone can understand that a game gets better resolution with a better GPU, but if the AI and physics are made scaled by CPU power, people won't like it (imagine if the enemies acted smarter on your friend's super-computer).

Scaling things like AI and physics would also make it harder to test a game... how to make sure the AI won't get too smart, or that weird physics bugs won't happen with differently-powered computers?

 

Its also a lot more difficult to design scaling AI/Physics because gameplay revolves around it. With graphics quality it doesn't matter whether or not the game runs with low/high textures or a high/low resolution etc. Thats why they don't do it besides making it more difficult to test the games. Though a lot of the high CPU requirements for games are caused by consoles being able to target a higher average CPU performance than a lot of PC developers and also because the consoles tend to lean on the floating point capabilities of the console CPUs and they fail to adequately program for the specific needs of the PC platform.



Tease.

NJ5 said:
kaneada said:
NJ5 said:
Only in MikeB's world would the PS3 be on par with a console with a Shader 5 GPU and 1 GB of RAM.

Well I must be in MikeB's world (who is that anyway?) becuase the Cell will still have it beat on physics despite its limitations. If the physics are good then the animation possible on the system will be better. Don't see that happen with a six core whatever (unless someone is implying the Cell is going to be in the nextbox.) You can have as detailed models graphically as you want, but realistically if your high polygon models with shader whatever support don't move in a lifelike manner then your graphics are crap. If M$ really is releasing a new console then they would do well to make sure their new CPU can handle better physics rather than higher res textures and lighthing.

M$ is a little scared if they are releasing a new console this soon, but based on the specs I would compare it to the Sega 32X. It most likely won't do as well, but of course I think the specs listed are fake.

Most games use the GPU to its max but not the CPU. That's why 360 and PS3 games look quite similar, their GPUs are almost equally powered. That's also why the best upgrade you can do to a gaming PC is upgrading its GPU, upgrading the CPU will yield almost no benefit for most games.

Modern CPUs including the Cell, the Xenon and Intel CPUs have more than enough power to calculate the physics of as many objects as a GPU can handle.

What's more, a fast GPU can also be used to accelerate physics processing without hogging the GPU too much. Ever heard of PhysX?

Having said all that... do you have any practical example of a game with "crap physics" due to an underpowered CPU when the GPU is quite powerful?

 

In my old machine the cpu was the bottleneck in Medieval total war 2.