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Forums - Sales - Casual gaming, why Microsoft finally gets it and Sony still doesn't.

Steroid on 09 June 2009

MS greatest mistake will be to try and take on Nintendo at this time.



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Squilliam on 09 June 2009
Akvod said:
Squilliam said:

Unfortunately there are legitimate concerns that some people feel with the Wiimote. Its not a one way street where everyone not on board is a hater or a graphics whore.

From what I understand, the Wiimote doesn't register accelleration slowing than 20cm/s so it doesn't do subtle very well. Its tilt functionality and the way it registered movement in say Zack and Wiki was a bit off also in that it registered movement when I intended none and it didn't respond as intended. A button never doesn't respond as intended. Also the Wiimote is not 1:1 on your screen. If you put a laser pointer on the Wiimote you'd see as well and it also doesn't configure properly to a few TV setups being too big or too far away. Also it doesn't like IR interference from bulbs/other IR sources like security systems or even the sun. Also many of the functions of the Wiimote like motion controls especially due to the lack of sensitivity are tiring and can cause injury with long term use.

Had the Wii been a little more powerful, with say 1/3rd or 1/4 the performance of the Xbox 360 it would have seen far more effort by developers whom need more performance than Nintendo does to realise their vision or atleast realise a similar and comparable vision to what can be achieved on the 360/PS3. Surely theres a difference between an obsession with the obsolete and cheap hardware which performs on the low end of the scale compared to modern systems.

I never intended to mean that everyone was, but there were a good number of them, and they were very vocal and visible. I'm only criticizing those haters and graphics whores, not people like you, because those people said that motion controls were irrelevant, and made a 180 turn since E3.

==============================

As for the rest of your post (which doesn't concern my original post):

I do agree that the Wiimote, being older, isn't as good of a motion controller as Wii+ and potentially the PSmote may be. However, I don't care nor want motion controls, as much as I loved Flower, I didn't really played it like a game, more than an experience. So the potential superiority of NATAL (which I think can't really be completely compared with the Wii mote. I think that the lack of buttons and physical mass is more of a hinderance to someone like me, as much as it can be a blessing to others) and of PSmote is irrelevant to me really. If I'm playing an FPS I don't want motion controls if it's an competitive game (versus a game like Flower which is more like an experience).

Some applications I could see is a horror game, with Wiimote/PSmote (especially after seeing how you can control the camera like a FPS), but that serves for the purpose of immersion (for a genre that depends on immersion) not as an enhancement to controls and gameplay.

I didn't have any ill intent with answering you, I was just giving you an answer to explain why people may be more interested in the new controllers for the PS3 and Xbox 360 than the Wii. They may have looked like haters but many of the responses to the Wii were based on what people felt were legitimate concerns. The fact that they were also treated like haters and dismissed also fuels the fire and causes bad blood on both sides. The issues are complicated and many people simply fixate on a single issue to represent all of their issues with a console. One thing I can be sure about is that there are too many people willing to defend their beliefs anything less than blindly which causes many hurt feelings.



Tease.

naznatips on 09 June 2009
disolitude said:


I think "seemles hardcore gaming integration" is more likely with Natal than the other 2 as it does offer more features.  Wii does offer classic or motion controls in most games these days (not before  tho...no more heroes could sure use em). but it still makes the user put the controller down and either use motion controls  or a controller. Natal for one is a camera, with no extra controller necessary, and companies can make core games with the 360 controller in mind...but add something extra for the Natal users. This extra feature won't involve putting your controller down, picking up the wand or ahything that would piss off the core player. Simple multiple choice answer in a game like Mass effect could be done with natal using your voice...and the core player won't even notice that their "hardcore" gaming ways of using a controller were compromised by Natal.

 

This is simply an outrageous lie, and utter nonsense. Many games like Metroid Prime 3, Super Mario Galaxy, and Mario Kart Wii utilize a combination of motion and classic controls at the same time. What you are saying is simply completely untrue. There hasn't been the slightest hint to even suggest Natal games will be comined with the 360 controller. In fact, it's silly to expect them to be. What are you going to do? Drop your controller to punch to melee someone in a shooter?

You have these completely backwards. It's not Nintendo's motion controls that lack core game potential/useage. It's Microsoft's. Almost every genre of gaming requires some sort of human interface. Aside from things in Wii Sports, basically every Wii game has buttons. What is MS going to release? An entire series of Wii Sports games? Is all we are going to play handball and racing? There is a major issue here that 360 fanboys are refusing to look in the eye.



Akvod on 09 June 2009
disolitude said:

That ball game is something I'd like to try for sure...but not play every day :) Maybe if I miss gym I wouldn't mind playing that for 20-30 mins. But yeah, that won't spark a revolution in hardcore gaming for sure. Lets agree that those casual games will be equally done for all 3 consles... I dont think Natal can do the "balls in your face" game any better than wii :)

I think "seemles hardcore gaming integration" is more likely with Natal than the other 2 as it does offer more features.  Wii does offer classic or motion controls in most games these days (not before  tho...no more heroes could sure use em). but it still makes the user put the controller down and either use motion controls  or a controller. Natal for one is a camera, with no extra controller necessary, and companies can make core games with the 360 controller in mind...but add something extra for the Natal users. This extra feature won't involve putting your controller down, picking up the wand or ahything that would piss off the core player. Simple multiple choice answer in a game like Mass effect could be done with natal using your voice...and the core player won't even notice that their "hardcore" gaming ways of using a controller were compromised by Natal.

 

Yep.

Mmmmm, but isn't it arguable that that the Wii and Sixaxis already do that? With the Wii combining both buttons and motion control (along with the Sixaxis)? I do think that the voice thing can be cool, although it should only be limited to small uses (that can be considered "gimmicky"). I do think that one potential use of NATAL, is... fuck forgot it, but I do agree that there are plenty of practical uses NATAL can add for hardcore gamers, but only emphasize that it won't be a huge step up, and in fact many of those arguable improvements are extremely miniscule (for example, making an angry, sad, etc face vs pressing up, down, etc...)



Shadowblind on 09 June 2009
naznatips said:
Squilliam said:
Akvod said:
Squilliam said:
Zucas said:

Basically the gist I got from this was I love MS more than anything else so let me twist everything around to support it. But looking at the poster I can't say I'm surprised.

You know, theres a pen name called Sean Malstrom that this quote really reminds me of. Do you see the connection or am I just being a bit slow?

I do think that the Nintendo fanboys do have a legitimate point/grudge... I mean comeon, for YEARS you've been ragged on about motion controls, and the same people, after 1 day, turn around and say that motion control is everything and that Nintendo's motion control is inferior?

You gotta be able to understand/feel for them a little bit at least.

Unfortunately there are legitimate concerns that some people feel with the Wiimote. Its not a one way street where everyone not on board is a hater or a graphics whore.

From what I understand, the Wiimote doesn't register accelleration slowing than 20cm/s so it doesn't do subtle very well. Its tilt functionality and the way it registered movement in say Zack and Wiki was a bit off also in that it registered movement when I intended none and it didn't respond as intended. A button never doesn't respond as intended. Also the Wiimote is not 1:1 on your screen. If you put a laser pointer on the Wiimote you'd see as well and it also doesn't configure properly to a few TV setups being too big or too far away. Also it doesn't like IR interference from bulbs/other IR sources like security systems or even the sun. Also many of the functions of the Wiimote like motion controls especially due to the lack of sensitivity are tiring and can cause injury with long term use.

Had the Wii been a little more powerful, with say 1/3rd or 1/4 the performance of the Xbox 360 it would have seen far more effort by developers whom need more performance than Nintendo does to realise their vision or atleast realise a similar and comparable vision to what can be achieved on the 360/PS3. Surely theres a difference between an obsession with the obsolete and cheap hardware which performs on the low end of the scale compared to modern systems.

 

So, basically every console vs. PC? Seriously people don't talk about "realizing visions" when we all know the major differences in capability between modern PCs and consoles. I mean Crytek had to actually downgrade their engine to put Crysis 2 on consoles. Am I the only one who finds that incredibly sad?

It's not about visions, it's about budgets. Also You really think any motion control has no issues? There are major issues with the Natal's recognition of finite movement right now (anyone who was actually there enjoyed watching the avatar bend the wrong ways at the joints as he tried to manipulate it) and signifficant recognition and time-delay issues.

And yes, Nintendo absolutely strived to combine core and casual controls into one system. And no, that's not what Microsoft is doing. Microsoft is trying to divide audiences. Trying to say "these are your games, and these are your games. Don't play with the kids on the other side at all." You realize the entire point of what Nintendo does is to make games playable by everyone and enjoyable on completely different levels depending on the gamer (see: Mario Kart, Brawl, Pokemon, Galaxy). Microsoft and Sony completely missed the point.

Explain to me which part or Microsoft saying that they "plan to make halo and Call of Duty Natal compatible" is dividing their audience,. If your talking about dividing the groups into "casuals and hardcore", thats simply because Nintendo has always made Mario, Zelda, etc. games marketed towards kids in the first place. The difference is that they are also enjoyable by adults as well.  Microsoft isn't "dividing" their audience by making Natal, they are using the tech to both gain a new audience and increase their existing audience.

The power difference between the 360, PS3 and PC is much smaller then the difference between the said three and the Wii. MGS4 was "Kojima's Vision." And he said it couldn't be done on an Xbox 360, which may or may not be BS. But he didn't say "oh it could only be done on PC", because the power similarities were so close. Visions BS. PC is so similar in power to consoles right now it hardly matters. Only PC game with better graphics then a console right now is Crysis.

You don't understand that Microsoft has established the Xbox through mainly gritty M rated games, unlike Nintendo who establihed it through sunshine and Kokori E-T rated games. They haven't missed the point at all, on the contrary they are trying to create a new foundation so that they can appeal to the casual crowd as well as evolve their hardcore crowd using Natal for both Halo and Banjo-Kazooie(example). I just repeated myself i think.



GOTY Contestants this year: Dead Space 2, Dark Souls, Tales of Graces f. Everything else can suck it.

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theRepublic on 09 June 2009
Shadowblind said:
theRepublic said:
disolitude said:
Zucas said:
disolitude said:
twesterm said:
Good read and pretty much agree.

Microsoft may have staged everything shown at the keynote, it doesn't matter. They put the idea of people playing with Natal and having fun with it. It sparked our imaginations of the things that could be done and that intrigued us.

Sony, on the other hand, just made their product look laughable by having a completely amateur demonstration. If someone told me that some execs from Sony stuck two guys in a basement for two months, asked them to make some kind of motion controller, and then told them the day of the E3 conference they were going to be showing it I would not be surprised or the least bit skeptical.

I'm a little upset that someone else finally learned Nintendo's secret but I'm also pretty happy a whole new group of people will get exposed to something new and interested to see what people come up.

I know those videos were staged but that still doesn't change the fact they did a perfect job at telling me what I could be enjoying 6 months or two years down the line.


http://www.vgchartz.com/forum/post.php?id=2234026

Well look at that, I should get a analyst spot on gametrailers discussions... :)

And MS has 2 guys in the basement (apparently from that guy demonstrating it) say rip off the eyetoy but give it some new gimmicky other feature and then copy Nintendo's marketing for the Wii.  I mean no matter how you look at it, MS and Sony are both looking to Nintendo for what they need to do.  Smart thing to do considering the DS is well over 100 million and the Wii is the fastest video game hardware to 50 million in video game history. 

Sony's demonstration wasn't anything special but it got the point across... we want to use this for gaming.  MS's demonstration was almsot completely the opposite.  How can we not use this for gaming.  The thing I respected about Ninty's is despite going after "non-gamers" they didn't do it by giving up gaming.  They did it by trying to make them want to play a video game.  Sony seems to be heading in a similar direction (although they already had done it successfully with the PS2).  MS showed it for Ricochet and then everything else seemed to not involve games whatsoever.  It's like they are transforming it into a computer.  Always about stretching it past video games.  It's a freaking video game console for god's sake... why is that so hard to understand.  I know MS is involved in so many other markets but I buy video games to play them... not talk to some creepy kid through the TV telling me to grab some silly goggles. 

Both MS and Sony seem to get the idea of perception along with actually having something but I still don't see the commitment to the idea... that central idea being games and having people play them.  Sony understands the latter more so than MS but both look at there "waves of the future" as an afterthought compared to everything else. 

The difference is that MS with Natal tech can introduce a wand at any time as a controller if a game needs it. It appears that Ms will integrate Natal in to the core of the xbox DNA unlike Sony that will use their motion controls and another peripheral. Ms has decided to make this part of their experience and whatever other accessories the games may need will be easy to add. Sony on the other hand seems to be stuck with a controller in hand, just like nintendo. Natal can be integrated with the current xbox controller too unlike sony's wand. Imagine playing halo and throwing a sticky with your own hand or meleeing yourself rather than pushing a button... There are lots of "hardcore gaming" applications Natal can do.

Also I dont see how a wii or PS3 designed game won't work on Natal(with a possible accessory) but a natal designed feature game will not work for wii and may or may not work for Sony.

And while I do understand your point about it being a videogame console and Natal offering more than whats necessary for just videogames...I believe MS is looking for the consumers that dont play videogames. Like if you think Nintendo Wii was a hit at old folks homes for things like bowling, imagine what could Milo do for the same market...offer companionship to someone? If it eventually works like they said it will that is... lol

The problem is that most of your first paragraph is speculative.  From what I've see, Microsoft has been pretty vague on the specifics.  Like I said in my first post:

We have yet to see if either Microsoft or Sony "get it". When one of them starts to bundle their motion controller with the console, at an affordable price point, let me know. When one of them shows us some actual software, let me know. When one of them shows us how all games, all genres, both casual and core, will work with their controller, let me know.

Please note that Natal has been announced for 8 days now. One would be ignorant to assume microsoft will entirely make you play ALL games without a controller or peripheral.  Speculative, of course. But its founded on reasonable assumptions.

I know that.  The most likely scenario is that Natal sees very little support and the regular 360 controller is used for most games.



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Asmo on 09 June 2009

I don't think either Sony or MS got it. Nintendo already captured casuals, will they actually buy another console + a motion capture device for the same thing?

Especially that most of them will play it only when friends come in and don't touch it until other guests come.



Akvod on 09 June 2009
Squilliam said:
Akvod said:
Squilliam said:

Unfortunately there are legitimate concerns that some people feel with the Wiimote. Its not a one way street where everyone not on board is a hater or a graphics whore.

From what I understand, the Wiimote doesn't register accelleration slowing than 20cm/s so it doesn't do subtle very well. Its tilt functionality and the way it registered movement in say Zack and Wiki was a bit off also in that it registered movement when I intended none and it didn't respond as intended. A button never doesn't respond as intended. Also the Wiimote is not 1:1 on your screen. If you put a laser pointer on the Wiimote you'd see as well and it also doesn't configure properly to a few TV setups being too big or too far away. Also it doesn't like IR interference from bulbs/other IR sources like security systems or even the sun. Also many of the functions of the Wiimote like motion controls especially due to the lack of sensitivity are tiring and can cause injury with long term use.

Had the Wii been a little more powerful, with say 1/3rd or 1/4 the performance of the Xbox 360 it would have seen far more effort by developers whom need more performance than Nintendo does to realise their vision or atleast realise a similar and comparable vision to what can be achieved on the 360/PS3. Surely theres a difference between an obsession with the obsolete and cheap hardware which performs on the low end of the scale compared to modern systems.

I never intended to mean that everyone was, but there were a good number of them, and they were very vocal and visible. I'm only criticizing those haters and graphics whores, not people like you, because those people said that motion controls were irrelevant, and made a 180 turn since E3.

==============================

As for the rest of your post (which doesn't concern my original post):

I do agree that the Wiimote, being older, isn't as good of a motion controller as Wii+ and potentially the PSmote may be. However, I don't care nor want motion controls, as much as I loved Flower, I didn't really played it like a game, more than an experience. So the potential superiority of NATAL (which I think can't really be completely compared with the Wii mote. I think that the lack of buttons and physical mass is more of a hinderance to someone like me, as much as it can be a blessing to others) and of PSmote is irrelevant to me really. If I'm playing an FPS I don't want motion controls if it's an competitive game (versus a game like Flower which is more like an experience).

Some applications I could see is a horror game, with Wiimote/PSmote (especially after seeing how you can control the camera like a FPS), but that serves for the purpose of immersion (for a genre that depends on immersion) not as an enhancement to controls and gameplay.

I didn't have any ill intent with answering you, I was just giving you an answer to explain why people may be more interested in the new controllers for the PS3 and Xbox 360 than the Wii. They may have looked like haters but many of the responses to the Wii were based on what people felt were legitimate concerns. The fact that they were also treated like haters and dismissed also fuels the fire and causes bad blood on both sides. The issues are complicated and many people simply fixate on a single issue to represent all of their issues with a console. One thing I can be sure about is that there are too many people willing to defend their beliefs anything less than blindly which causes many hurt feelings.

I never took any ill intent XD

I agree that there are many genuinely interested people touting NATAL and PSmote, but I would like to convince you to agree that there were haters and it's not so strange/out of question for Wii fans to go "WTF". There were a good number of people that were revealed as hypocrites and blind fanboys, and I think it's perfectly acceptiable and understandable why Nintendo fans will argue a double standard, hypocricy, and be a bit pissed off as a result.



Squilliam on 09 June 2009
Akvod said:
Squilliam said:

I didn't have any ill intent with answering you, I was just giving you an answer to explain why people may be more interested in the new controllers for the PS3 and Xbox 360 than the Wii. They may have looked like haters but many of the responses to the Wii were based on what people felt were legitimate concerns. The fact that they were also treated like haters and dismissed also fuels the fire and causes bad blood on both sides. The issues are complicated and many people simply fixate on a single issue to represent all of their issues with a console. One thing I can be sure about is that there are too many people willing to defend their beliefs anything less than blindly which causes many hurt feelings.

I never took any ill intent XD

I agree that there are many genuinely interested people touting NATAL and PSmote, but I would like to convince you to agree that there were haters and it's not so strange/out of question for Wii fans to go "WTF". There were a good number of people that were revealed as hypocrites and blind fanboys, and I think it's perfectly acceptiable and understandable why Nintendo fans will argue a double standard, hypocricy, and be a bit pissed off as a result.

I can't speak about other people but for me its always been a love/hate relationship with my Wii, I love it more than I hate it, so its like family! Unfortunately the real haters are likely the media. Someone just told me on steam the attitude of the press towards Nintendo on the show floor at E3.



Tease.

disolitude on 09 June 2009
naznatips said:
disolitude said:

 

I think "seemles hardcore gaming integration" is more likely with Natal than the other 2 as it does offer more features.  Wii does offer classic or motion controls in most games these days (not before  tho...no more heroes could sure use em). but it still makes the user put the controller down and either use motion controls  or a controller. Natal for one is a camera, with no extra controller necessary, and companies can make core games with the 360 controller in mind...but add something extra for the Natal users. This extra feature won't involve putting your controller down, picking up the wand or ahything that would piss off the core player. Simple multiple choice answer in a game like Mass effect could be done with natal using your voice...and the core player won't even notice that their "hardcore" gaming ways of using a controller were compromised by Natal.

 

This is simply an outrageous lie, and utter nonsense. Many games like Metroid Prime 3, Super Mario Galaxy, and Mario Kart Wii utilize a combination of motion and classic controls at the same time. What you are saying is simply completely untrue. There hasn't been the slightest hint to even suggest Natal games will be comined with the 360 controller. In fact, it's silly to expect them to be. What are you going to do? Drop your controller to punch to melee someone in a shooter?

You have these completely backwards. It's not Nintendo's motion controls that lack core game potential/useage. It's Microsoft's. Almost every genre of gaming requires some sort of human interface. Aside from things in Wii Sports, basically every Wii game has buttons. What is MS going to release? An entire series of Wii Sports games? Is all we are going to play handball and racing? There is a major issue here that 360 fanboys are refusing to look in the eye.


Because natal does a lot more than track motion with a controller, I think its sily not to expect some of its features to appear in core games. We have all seen nitnendo Wiimote in action...and while Wiimotion + may improve on the idea, it still leaves a lot to be desired for most core games.

Besides, nintendo introduced the wii mote as the "be all, end all" of controllers and then more an more we find that core games support gamecube or classic controllers as the motion controls feel tacked on and a gimmick.

While it purely up to microsoft to take the NAtal to where it can go, they know the tech best we are just speculating... I do see things like voice recognitin and faical recognition and controllerless motion controls opening doors to games that have not really been opened before.

Remember the "slide the piece until emblem is corect" puzzle in resident evil games? Well that is something that could be easily done with Natal with one arm and while holding the 360 controller. And that is a new experience for me...and I'm pretty sure you as well.  As much as wii motion controls were unique when they came out, by today I feel like I am using a controller no mattr what wii game I play.